OT: Career advice

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kovazub94

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Aug 5, 2010
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Finishing up my 16 month SE internship soon. Great experience - but I'm excited to get back and finish up school.

The way that my school has its internship program set up is that you need to work at the same place for 12 or 16 months. This is good - you don't really get the full developer experience if you're only there for a few months - I understand that. However, I feel I missed out a bit on other areas I have interest in... I was stupid early undergrad years and didn't really settle for work experience thinking this 16 month one would be sufficient.

So I took some machine learning courses online and created a few projects throughout the year to keep up on the side. I applied to a bunch of places for the hell of it and was offered a research position on a deep learning project for Autonomous driving this upcoming semester.

The issue is that I wanna graduate asap since I have a more advanced full time position available at the company I did my internship at right after graduation. Financially that is a no-brainer, but I also wanna see how this research position can play out... Also may lead me to a path of pursuing grad school, which I'm a bit iffy on.

Would appreciate some advice.

The only thing I’d suggest to you is not to put too much emphasis on what you migh perceive as big bucks from your first fulltime position out of college. Typically doing something that leads you to become more marketable from enhancing (deepening or broadening) your experience will eventually bring a better $$ return.
 
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Say Hey Kid

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Don't use your current employer as a reference. My wife applied for 200 jobs nationwide. She had 2 bad offers. On her 201st application she said "don't contact my employer". They offered her 7k more than she was asking for, she accepted, and has been a Director there for more than a year.
 

SnowblindNYR

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Don't use your current employer as a reference. My wife applied for 200 jobs nationwide. She had 2 bad offers. On her 201st application she said "don't contact my employer". They offered her 7k more than she was asking for, she accepted, and has been a Director there for more than a year.

Aren't you legally not allowed to trash employees in references?
 

Say Hey Kid

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Aren't you legally not allowed to trash employees in references?
Yes, but it happens and is hard to prove, and they can legally say they would not re-hire you or please don't hire this irreplaceable person, we can't replace them.
 

Say Hey Kid

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Why would someone care if he's irreplaceable to another company?
Humans have emotions. My wife works in healthcare with premature babies and her clinical knowledge, employee training, and administrative skills have made a huge difference in premies quality of care at 3 different corporations. You've worn me out. Enough education for one day.
 

SnowblindNYR

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Humans have emotions. My wife works in healthcare with premature babies and her clinical knowledge, employee training, and administrative skills have made a huge difference in premies quality of care at 3 different corporations. You've worn me out. Enough education for one day.

I've worn you out because I asked you two questions? Ok...
 

smoneil

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I've worn you out because I asked you two questions? Ok...

Don't pull him fully into this thread. He's irreplaceable to another thread. Come on, now. Have some emotions.


On point--humans DO have emotions, and companies violate the law on all sorts of things (age bias, gender bias, trashing current employees, etc) with no qualms whatsoever. In academia, you're supposed to do a full search for any faculty opening. Doesn't matter if you know that you want to hire someone specific--you have to do the full search in case someone even better applies. So a lot of schools will run a fake "search" knowing the outcome in advance. I saw it firsthand once, where the two finalists for a faculty position did campus interviews (time-consuming, work intensive, horrible things--you are basically under the microscope continuously for about 36-48 hours of meetings, teaching demos, meet and greets, etc). Everyone felt horrible for this woman from a top school because she was the ONLY one who didn't know that her candidacy wasn't "real." And this was at a religious school (like, hard-core religious, with monks and shit on campus).

When the laws require the businesses to police themselves, they only follow those laws when doing so happens to coincide with what they want. Crappy, but true.
 
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Charlie Conway

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I work in higher ed English, but the job market is dismal. Teaching, psych and finance are all wildly different directions. What are you most interested in doing?

I taught some English before I started advising. I can get into teaching through that way if I wanted...advise and still teach one or two sections a semester after working. It's a decent job and they're paying for my master's. There might be some opportunity to move up in another year or so. I'm well-liked because I work my ass off and don't shove responsibilities to other people like a lot of my co-workers do.

I'm still figuring it out, in all honesty. I hate the bureaucracy, but that's everywhere.
 
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Say Hey Kid

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Don't pull him fully into this thread. He's irreplaceable to another thread. Come on, now. Have some emotions. On point--humans DO have emotions, and companies violate the law on all sorts of things (age bias, gender bias, trashing current employees, etc) with no qualms whatsoever. In academia, you're supposed to do a full search for any faculty opening. Doesn't matter if you know that you want to hire someone specific--you have to do the full search in case someone even better applies. So a lot of schools will run a fake "search" knowing the outcome in advance. I saw it firsthand once, where the two finalists for a faculty position did campus interviews (time-consuming, work intensive, horrible things--you are basically under the microscope continuously for about 36-48 hours of meetings, teaching demos, meet and greets, etc). Everyone felt horrible for this woman from a top school because she was the ONLY one who didn't know that her candidacy wasn't "real." And this was at a religious school (like, hard-core religious, with monks and **** on campus). When the laws require the businesses to police themselves, they only follow those laws when doing so happens to coincide with what they want. Crappy, but true.
Agreed with all. This the real world.
 

Say Hey Kid

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Always be positive, kind, and professional. Never make a negative, mean, or unprofessional comment about anything or anyone. It will get back to the worst people possible if you go negative. Dress and groom as well as possible. Money goes to money.
 

SnowblindNYR

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What if someone is **** at what they do? You should absolutely thrash them. I mean you are only telling the truth.

I personally think that unless the guy or gal was an asshole from a human standpoint there's no reason to trash him/her in this situation. What would the benefit of it be?
 

darko

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I personally think that unless the guy or gal was an ******* from a human standpoint there's no reason to trash him/her in this situation. What would the benefit of it be?

Well if his/her's new employer asks you about them, what do you say? Do you lie?
 

SnowblindNYR

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Well if his/her's new employer asks you about them, what do you say? Do you lie?

You can be diplomatic about it. If you were at a job that you weren't good at (I'm sure a number of people have been in that situation) do say "I sucked at my job" in the interview or do you frame in some positive or at least neutral terms if you have to say something?
 

darko

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You can be diplomatic about it. If you were at a job that you weren't good at (I'm sure a number of people have been in that situation) do say "I sucked at my job" in the interview or do you frame in some positive or at least neutral terms if you have to say something?

I'm sorry but I'm interviewing someone for a job and I'm getting a whole lot of neutral feedback, that screams red flags to me.
 

SnowblindNYR

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I'm sorry but I'm interviewing someone for a job and I'm getting a whole lot of neutral feedback, that screams red flags to me.

That's fine, but it's still better than throwing the person under a bus and will look better for that person. Besides, as I said legally HR is only allowed to say that you worked there. Your hand picked references are the ones that will get a testament to your work skills. So you can easily avoid trashing someone. I'm not saying that the person was miserable to work with or something. But sometimes a position is a poor fit for someone. I bet the vast majority of people have at least one such job in their lives.

Another example is when people ask you what did you like/would like to improve over your last job. If your boss was an asshole for example you wouldn't want to say that because it's bad form.
 

SnowblindNYR

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I find it interesting that you're upset about jobs hiring people internally but don't think it's bad form to trash someone after they worked for you.
 

darko

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I find it interesting that you're upset about jobs hiring people internally but don't think it's bad form to trash someone after they worked for you.

I'm not upset about internal hiring. I've been on the wrong end of it many times and don't necessarily agree with the process but can understand why it happens.

Here's an example. If you and I work together, we don't get along at all and I think you are almost useless, lazy and frequently late. You decide to leave and on your resume you list what you did and who you worked with. Your new potential employer calls me and asks about you. What do I say? Do I lie or do I tell the truth? I don't think I should lie .... especially if you are going to my main competition. You never know, I could be looking to switch down the track for a better opportunity and don't want to ruin my chances. Saying neutral stuff doesn't work. Any half decent interviewer will see through that bullshit.
 

smoneil

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I find it interesting that you're upset about jobs hiring people internally but don't think it's bad form to trash someone after they worked for you.

I know you weren't talking to me, here, but my point isn't that it's OKAY, but that it happens. A lot. Hell, my dissertation supervisor--on more than one occasion--forgot to send a letter of rec for a few jobs. Then lied to me about it afterwards. Policies are great, but even a perfect policy is implemented and followed (or not) by imperfect people.

I personally think that unless the guy or gal was an ******* from a human standpoint there's no reason to trash him/her in this situation. What would the benefit of it be?

In the case of a company that doesn't want to lose someone, the benefit might be that the employee doesn't get the new job he/she is seeking. Conversely, they might praise a lousy employee in the hopes that that employee will become another company's problem. It's a little pessimistic, but people can be shitty, and most of those people will put their small needs over your large ones.
 

SnowblindNYR

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I'm not upset about internal hiring. I've been on the wrong end of it many times and don't necessarily agree with the process but can understand why it happens.

Here's an example. If you and I work together, we don't get along at all and I think you are almost useless, lazy and frequently late. You decide to leave and on your resume you list what you did and who you worked with. Your new potential employer calls me and asks about you. What do I say? Do I lie or do I tell the truth? I don't think I should lie .... especially if you are going to my main competition. You never know, I could be looking to switch down the track for a better opportunity and don't want to ruin my chances. Saying neutral stuff doesn't work. Any half decent interviewer will see through that bull****.

Do you live in the US? I thought you were Australian. I believe that the law in the US is that HR isn't allowed to comment on your performance just how long you worked there and in what capacity. Maybe I'm wrong. References on the other hand are allowed to do so and do comment on your performance. If my understanding of the situation is true then if you're HR you just say it's company policy and in accordance with the law to not comment on performance. If you're a possible reference then make it clear that you wouldn't want to be the person's reference before you're asked about his/her performance.

If I'm wrong or you're asking a more philosophical question there has to be a way to say something diplomatically and leaving the situation ambiguous enough so that you don't lie AND don't throw the other person under the bus. I already gave a common example of a situation where you as a candidate are put in a similar position. When asked what did you not like about working in your previous company you MUST be diplomatic. No one wants to hire someone that will bad mouth their company later on. If you think being diplomatic will be pretty transparent well it's still better than trashing that person. I'd rather the other company have to piece together things about me and hypothesize about what they think MIGHT be wrong with me than my former boss telling them I'm a useless lazy bastard. It's still less of a negative.

You have to understand also "useless" and "lazy" are traits that are in the eye of the beholder and open to interpretation. It may well be possible that you put a creative person in the role of accountant or an analytical person in the role of copywriter at an ad agency and what looks like "useless" and "lazy" is just bad fit. There needs to be some empathy in this situation. The coming late often IS inexcusable, I will give you that.
 

SnowblindNYR

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I know you weren't talking to me, here, but my point isn't that it's OKAY, but that it happens. A lot. Hell, my dissertation supervisor--on more than one occasion--forgot to send a letter of rec for a few jobs. Then lied to me about it afterwards. Policies are great, but even a perfect policy is implemented and followed (or not) by imperfect people.



In the case of a company that doesn't want to lose someone, the benefit might be that the employee doesn't get the new job he/she is seeking. Conversely, they might praise a lousy employee in the hopes that that employee will become another company's problem. It's a little pessimistic, but people can be ****ty, and most of those people will put their small needs over your large ones.

I don't think that darko is talking about necessarily the situation where the person is working currently at the company, I took it as a general comment about "being honest" when giving feedback on employees. Maybe I'm wrong. But even if I am his focus seems to be more on honesty rather than trying to keep the employee.
 

SnowblindNYR

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You're allowed to give an opinion if it is honest

Maybe it's a NY state or city thing, but I've been told several times that HR can't give references because they're not allowed to comment on anything other than the duration of time you worked there and the capacity. Maybe this isn't the case in every city or state.

Edit: I just realized I poorly phrased it. Because technically in references you probably could trash them. But those are usually picked by hand. So you usually should get a positive response.
 

Alluckks

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Maybe it's a NY state or city thing, but I've been told several times that HR can't give references because they're not allowed to comment on anything other than the duration of time you worked there and the capacity. Maybe this isn't the case in every city or state.
If it is HR that is different, correct

But, if you list you boss or manager when asked who was your superior and their contact information, and you don't mark that they cannot reach out them, then your current/former boss is allowed to give his opinion of your performance
 
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