Moving off of Mik is baked in assumption, nobody is arguing we should trade Soucy to keep Mk. We are arguing how to upgrade the roster even after moving off of Mik because there is not enough money.
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Nucker101
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- Apr 2, 2013
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In that case I think I prefer Soucy over Hronek at 7-8M.
LD vs RD I know but Soucy and Zadorov can both play on their off sides
Also, I’ve seen people post rosters without Mikheyev where the Canucks still have money to play with
TruGr1t
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- Jun 26, 2003
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I think realistically they'll move Milkheyev and move off Hronek if he sticks at a cap number above around $7M AAV.
I have a hard time seeing them moving any of the playoff contributors in Garland, Boeser or Soucy. You're almost guaranteed to get less value on the contract if you try to replace them in terms of those last three guys, plus they can't be very optimistic about contributions from the farm given the current status of Podz, Bains etc.
Like I said earlier, I think the first attempt will be to try to keep the blue line largely intact, move Mikheyev and try to find a top-six winger upgrade. I expect they're hoping Hronek, Zadorov and Myers are open to taking below market rate to stay with the team and allow them to upgrade the forwards.
I have a hard time seeing them moving any of the playoff contributors in Garland, Boeser or Soucy. You're almost guaranteed to get less value on the contract if you try to replace them in terms of those last three guys, plus they can't be very optimistic about contributions from the farm given the current status of Podz, Bains etc.
Like I said earlier, I think the first attempt will be to try to keep the blue line largely intact, move Mikheyev and try to find a top-six winger upgrade. I expect they're hoping Hronek, Zadorov and Myers are open to taking below market rate to stay with the team and allow them to upgrade the forwards.
okay, so you're saying stack the top 6 rather than overspending on the third line......and then you allocate $12+MM to the third line.
it depends if we are happy with running back the same team or making improvements on the roster by adding:
1st line winger for petey - 6-8M
center depth for 3rd line - 6-7M
RHD (2nd, 3rd paring) - ?????
and who do we want to keep?
Zadorov - 4-5M?
Lindholm (center depth) - 6-7M
Joshua - 4M?
Hronek - 7M
who makes enough money to free up cap to fill holes
Mik - ~5M
Garland - ~5M
Boeser - ~6.7M
Soucy - 3.7M
Bourne Endeavor
Registered User
We lucked into that trade because Zadorov basically demanded a trade, went public about it literally right after the Leafs game just to make a statement "I'm done here."
Regardless, we didn't have the capspace to get anyone. We're likely to run into that problem again. If the only value we're getting back for Soucy is a 3rd then you wait to see if something opens up like a Zadorov. You don't trade him and cross your fingers, hoping that happens somewhere along the season.
I'd say we're worse with that lineup than chasing after Bertuzzi/Toffoli/Duclair as cheaper options. Yes, Guentzel is undeniably the best player among them but Pod is so comically below what Garland brings that is almost completely neutralizes that line.
We're also relying heavily on Hoglander repeating the success he had during the regular season when the playoffs are showing he's far from a consistent player.
I'd rather go with:
Bertuzzi/Duclair - Miller - Boeser
Hoglander - Pettersson - Toffoli
Joshua - Suter/Blueger - Garland
Alternatively, don't sign Toffoli and try to ink both Bertuzzi and Duclair. Or anyone else in their respective price range.
I think the assumption with those calculation is the roster is pretty much the same as what we have now but with Bluegar as 3C and a 4-5M winger for Petey that is not Mik. So really no improvement anywhere really.
Bankerguy
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- Apr 28, 2013
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i had a dream last night about after the season is over.
A well lit media room, buzzing with excitement and curiosity. An empty podium, a slew of reporters and the sound of someone approaching.
Mikheyev comes into frame, looking dreary yet resolute.
He steps up to the podium and addresses everyone in attendance. He's visibly shaken as he thanks everyone for coming in. His gratitude then extends to Canucks ownership and management. The realization of what this is about to be comes into focus for everyone in the room and its now silent. Dead silent except for Mikheyev's voice and light feedback through one of the mic's and speakers echoing into the room from down the hall.
After a broken slew of sentences that when strung together vaguely implies his retirement. The quote that media takes away is "since the ACL injury, you know, I , you know I worked so hard on rehab and the medical staff here did everything they could but i just cant ..like I cant get back to the level that I was at. Skating for me is such a big, such an important part of my game. I lost that gear and you know. I , I just feel like when i's not at my best i let people down. I cant play at the level I know I was at and this is something I just , I just have to move on from now. Again, thank you.
he walks away and the room erupts. .
A well lit media room, buzzing with excitement and curiosity. An empty podium, a slew of reporters and the sound of someone approaching.
Mikheyev comes into frame, looking dreary yet resolute.
He steps up to the podium and addresses everyone in attendance. He's visibly shaken as he thanks everyone for coming in. His gratitude then extends to Canucks ownership and management. The realization of what this is about to be comes into focus for everyone in the room and its now silent. Dead silent except for Mikheyev's voice and light feedback through one of the mic's and speakers echoing into the room from down the hall.
After a broken slew of sentences that when strung together vaguely implies his retirement. The quote that media takes away is "since the ACL injury, you know, I , you know I worked so hard on rehab and the medical staff here did everything they could but i just cant ..like I cant get back to the level that I was at. Skating for me is such a big, such an important part of my game. I lost that gear and you know. I , I just feel like when i's not at my best i let people down. I cant play at the level I know I was at and this is something I just , I just have to move on from now. Again, thank you.
he walks away and the room erupts. .
TruGr1t
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- Jun 26, 2003
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The interesting one for me is if they're actually really motivated to keep Lindholm, it comes down to Hronek vs. Lindholm in terms of the cap, I think. You aren't keeping both. Additionally, I would wager they are offered around the same contract.
Bourne Endeavor
Registered User
To answer this. I'll list where I cap out on each player.
Zadorov: 5.5M
Joshua: 3.5M
Lindholm: 7M
Hronek: 7.5M
Anything above those numbers and I seriously consider letting them walk; or a trade in Hronek's case. I absolutely love what Joshua brings but he's not a 4M dollar player imo. Likewise, Zadorov has been fantastic but I don't think he's worth 6M. At least not if he also wants a 6-7 year deal.
Going from there, the order of priority for me is: Zadorov = Hronek > Joshua > Lindholm.
We start with defense and see if either price themselves out. If both want their top end, then we see where Joshua stands and so forth.
I think the assumption is that with an elite winger with Petey, they can carry Hog. Basically you would expect Petey and Guentzel to maximize each other and hopefully both hit like 40 goals and if they can, whatever we get out of Hog is gravy. And that itself is far more valuable than what Garland and Joshua can get you, they together might get you 40goals and a bit more..
And really the tradeoff is going from a Joshua - XXX - Garland line to Joshua - Lindholm - XXX line and the total point production from it shouldn't be that much lower. With the former, we get like maybe 40pt-40pt-50pt. With the latter, we might get like 40pt-60pt-20pt but in exchange we get insurance for any Miller/Petey injury and we shift the money towards higher ceiling players with special team utility (Lindholm + Guentzel).
Having Bluegar as the 3C is not going to help us compete for the cup and Toffoli is not going to be the piece that will maximize Petey.
Nucker101
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- Apr 2, 2013
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This same roster with Lindholm/Mikh replaced by a top 6 winger sounds pretty good to me. Not sure how losing Soucy at $3M and being one injury away from a super thin blueline helps at all.
Not to mention that the Canucks big blueline has been very effective this season, it’s not easy to find big dmen that can skate and handle 16-20 mins per night.
i think the higher level problem i see is, how do we improve the team, not how do we run back the same team.
Weakness for us right now is lack of scoring winger that can play with Petey and lack of center depth past Miller/Petey.
The 2nd weakness is RD and the lack of offense from the bottom 2 defense parings.
I think we need to think about how we improve on that first and think about which players to retain that will facilitate that.
That's not what I'm asking. I'm curious what amount of space you think the Canucks have this off-season. Currently, they have just over 27m (LTIR) in space with 14/23 contracts. Hronek and Silovs being the only notable RFAs.
AFP Analytics contract predictor is from the first half of the year and will have the full-season update in a few weeks so the following numbers are based on incomplete information and will definitely change:
RFAs:
Hronek 7y/8.4m or 3y/6.3m
UFAs:
Joshua 3y/3m
Lindholm 7y/8m
Blueger 2y/2.5m
Lafferty 2y/1.7m
Zadorov 4y/5m
Myers 2y/2.7m
Cole 2y/3.1m
DeSmith 1y/2.0m
I mean at that point you are just trading off having a better 3C vs having a better 3LD. You can argue that we are one Miller/Petey injury away from having Bluegar in your top6. Also the tradeoff is shifting Soucy's money over to the right side to get Tanev back. So yeah, less LD depth but better RD depth.
And despite having enough capable defenders to spread the minutes around, it's becoming clear we leaned too heavily on Hughes/Hronek and they appear to be running on fumes. cutting corners on the back end next year would be a huge mistake iMO. In an ideal world, we have Juulsen as our 7 and Woo or someone else as 8.
theguardianII
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- Jan 30, 2020
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I think Tocchet's system will have a large part of the kind of player the team needs.
Pettersson just might not be that kind of player. EP's stated before he wanted to play like P. Forsberg the problem is he doesn't have the physical structure. He tries but Forsberg was a beast.
Tocchet wants board guys and EP wasn't drafted because he was a boards guy, he seems to be trying to change his game to suit but in doing so he is going backwards on what made him drafted at #5.
So just maybe moving him might make sense if Tocchet is influencing the team structure.
Boeser has been riding the skirts of Miller and whomever. But if Miller gets hurt or sick then the team loses two players. BB isn't fast enough to be a F1, not nasty enough to win board battles and too predictable, cross blue line, then curl, he can't drive the net, Too nice a guy.
Cole's playoff experience helped carry the team into this year's real season but next year most of this group with have gained that experience and might make him less necessary.
Hronek's skill set mirrors Hughes for the most part but there is only one puck, so is he redundant? Certainly his position will increase his trade value and there are teams that will step up to pay that price. The Canucks still have 4 RHD prospects that might fill in his spot over the next couple of years. The cap space saved might get higher skilled larger players too.
Joshua will get a raise but not to the 4 million suggested by some. He had exactly 1 point more in the easy season than Mikheyev and the consensus is Mikheyev is paid way too much.
These real season games show which players or types of players this team needs.
Canucks might toss the idea of trading Demko too, he has had injuries every year the last 5 years.
I am sure trade packages could be made up to teams like Columbus, Buffalo, Ottawa, Utah or even the NJD.
Other than proposing which players the team will get, which is much different than those fans or the team might want, I work on re-tasking money already spent and suggesting a trade that might add a little to the total.
The confidence that Rugherford and Allvin have created by making GOOD trades make the idea of improvement not just HOPE.
They will make or have made already. IMO the OEL buyout was not necessary especially if Florida's contract is taken account. This season even with an additional 2+ mil added the team had LTIR space unused that would have made up the difference.
Essentially this group have 13 new players added over the last year and very limited cap space, think of what they could do with an additional 12 million they get if Boeser and Hronek are traded, or an additional 22 million if other are moved as well adding to the existing 24+ mil in estimated cap space.
IF they moved EP the return will be outstanding, Hronek will be fantastic, Boeser would be more and Demko substantial.
It sounds like gutting the team but there are many good players/prospects/FA's and RFA's.
Tocchet system has changed the way players play and their value to the system.
Any players Rutherford/Allvin get will likely offset the losses. Their running the team will make Vancouver more of a destination rather than undesirable to FA's. The weather is helping
This year is kind of a one off so far.
I am not sure why we need to think about it from the perspective of how much money we need vs who we want to get to improve the team.
I think based on how this management team has worked so far, it's more of a.. we want this guy to fill this need and we'll move XYZ to facilitate that. So it's more like looking at it from the perspective of
Suter - Miller - Boeser (fine)
???? - Petey - ???? (not fine, need 1st line winger so need to budget 6-8M for one)
???? - ???? - Garland (ok do we want better center or bluegar is good enough for a cup contending team? Can Joshua - Garland carry whoever or we get more utility by shifting the money towards center)
4th line (whatever)
Hughes - ???? (keep Hronek?)
??? - ???? (Keep Zadorov or move Soucy up to anchor 2nd paring? Who is RD? Tanev?)
Soucy - ???? ( We chill with Juulsen and wait for Willander?)
Once you start penciling who you would want in those ??? then you look at how much money you have and what tradeoffs you need to make.
The 3 year for Hronek is a no brainer if we could convince him to sign. Walsh is such a wildcard though, who knows what kind of nonsense he's whispering into Hronek's ear.
Peen
Rejoicing in a Benning-free world
- Oct 6, 2013
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Random:
If we don’t retain Lindholm, would you guys do Mikheyev for Tavares straight up?
Mikheyev has two years left, Tavares has one.
Mikheyev + Lindholm’s next contract = Tavares + $1MM depth player
If we don’t retain Lindholm, would you guys do Mikheyev for Tavares straight up?
Mikheyev has two years left, Tavares has one.
Mikheyev + Lindholm’s next contract = Tavares + $1MM depth player
To me, it's always about how much money you have at the outset. Then the next question is do we need to create more space in order to get our targets. The final check is do we want to part with the assets or future capspace (via buyout) in order to create that space.
You can look at it differently but I feel it's very important to not lose sight of the one knowable, available cap space, when building out a fantasy GM roster.
Peter Griffin
Registered User
Yea buying out Mikheyev is the most obvious play here. He’s providing replacement level production and saving $2.5M and $1.5M the next two seasons after replacing him is the way to go. Then you can play “replace Soucy dumpster diving” when Mikheyev’s cap penalty becomes a slight detriment.
Only way moving Soucy makes sense is if you’re making a bigger play for someone like Guentzel, and you need to shed that $2M off the bottom of the roster.
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