Confirmed with Link: Canucks extend Jim Benning’s contract

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Bleach Clean

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He works for the right's holder. I'd say he's even one of the faces of the company. Of course he's not going to rip on Aqullini's team so viciously. 650 probably wouldn't even exist without that partnership.

I'd say things have gotten better with Benning the last few years. Obviously that took their original plan completely blowing up in their face to happen, but how much of the direction is controlled by Aqullini honestly? I find it hard to blame just Jim entirely.

Pro-scouting has been a big problem, but drafting is the most important thing & he's done it well. Drafting outweighs pro scouting so long as he's not trading draft picks left & right anymore.


By what baseline as he drafted “well”? Meaning, what would you have expected an average GM to do in his place?

This GM could have just signed the 2nd worst deal of his tenure and have made possibly the worst trade of his tenure just this past offseason... What has gotten better, exactly?

And no, the drafting does not outweigh pro scouting. If 2/3rds of your job is bad (trades/signings) and 1/3rd of your job is average, you are poor at your job overall.
 

Bleach Clean

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Its the 2nd pick he's traded in almost 2 years....... And the other was the 7th, for Mazanec.


So what you’re saying is that it’s ok to trade a 1st rounder, having missed the playoffs for 4 straight years, so long as you only trade 1 to 2 picks every 2 years?
 

Sergei Shirokov

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By what baseline as he drafted “well”? Meaning, what would you have expected an average GM to do in his place?

This GM could have just signed the 2nd worst deal of his tenure and have made possibly the worst trade of his tenure just this past offseason... What has gotten better, exactly?

And no, the drafting does not outweigh pro scouting. If 2/3rds of your job is bad (trades/signings) and 1/3rd of your job is average, you are poor at your job overall.

What was the most important thing this franchise needed to do when he took over? Find the next core post-Sedins. He's done that through the draft, that's exactly what its intended for.

Part of it is luck in that Boeser & Hughes were available at those pick. But the Pettersson pick took some courage, he was far from an obvious choice. That pick changed everything for this franchise. Its like his 'Luongo trade'.

Drafting does outweigh it, because its by far the most important thing, even more so at this stage of our cycle. Its not even close.
 
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Sergei Shirokov

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So what you’re saying is that it’s ok to trade a 1st rounder, having missed the playoffs for 4 straight years, so long as you only trade 1 to 2 picks every 2 years?

No, if you read what I said.

"Drafting outweighs pro scouting so long as he's not trading draft picks left & right anymore."

I didn't agree with the JT Miller trade, but trading basically 1 pick in 2 years is hardly what he was doing before. Its a clear change, he's been holding onto his picks for awhile now, which is simply what I was saying.
 

Bleach Clean

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What was the most important thing this franchise needed to do when he took over? Find the next core post-Sedins. He's done that through the draft, that's exactly what its intended for.

Part of it is luck in that Boeser & Hughes were available at that pick. But the Pettersson pick took some courage, he was far from an obvious choice. That pick changed everything for this franchise. Its like his 'Luongo trade'.

Drafting does outweigh it, because its by far the most important thing, even more so at this stage of our cycle. Its not even close.


No, drafting doesn’t outweigh 2/3rds of his job. These are mutually dependent factors serving the same goal: Rebuilding.

If you find better talent through trade/FA, you don’t have to draft as well. On the flip side, a poor performance at pro scouting creates that much more pressure at the draft table. In other words, drafting became that much more important because Benning was poor everywhere else. He didn’t even help himself at the draft table by getting more picks. Does someone who emphasizes the draft do this?

But back to the main question: What is your baseline? I would like to know what you would have expected another GM to do at the draft table? Per stats markers posted here before, Benning has been decidedly average at the draft table. Do you have a different analysis?
 
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Pastor Of Muppetz

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What was the most important thing this franchise needed to do when he took over? Find the next core post-Sedins. He's done that through the draft, that's exactly what its intended for.

Part of it is luck in that Boeser & Hughes were available at those pick. But the Pettersson pick took some courage, he was far from an obvious choice. That pick changed everything for this franchise. Its like his 'Luongo trade'.

Drafting does outweigh it, because its by far the most important thing, even more so at this stage of our cycle. Its not even close.
Agreed ...drafting is the most imperative asset on a rebuild ..Does not matter how good your trading or pro scouting is..If you can’t draft ..you won’t be employed for long.
 
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Bleach Clean

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No, if you read what I said.

"Drafting outweighs pro scouting so long as he's not trading draft picks left & right anymore."

I didn't agree with the JT Miller trade, but trading basically 1 pick in 2 years is hardly what he was doing before. Its a clear change, he's been holding onto his picks for awhile now, which is simply what I was saying.


Just because he’s not compounding matters by frequently trading picks in no way assuages criticism that he just traded one of his best picks while having missed the playoffs 4 years in a row.
 

Bleach Clean

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If Benning is found to be an average drafter, the propaganda around his tenure crumbles.

An average drafter would have had the same or similar hit/miss ratio. Perhaps 1 out of the park pick and a couple of high profile failures. Not so different from what we have seen.

It’s because Benning is regarded as a good drafter that he is still here. Good, not merely average. Even if it’s not factually true, he’s ridden that perception to 4 more years.

One of the best theatre performances the NHL has ever seen.
 
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Megaterio Llamas

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This Daniel Wagner quote from the article above is right on the money:

It’s classic doublethink, which is “the act of simultaneously accepting two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct.” Despite everything indicating the team wasn’t rebuilding, you must think of it as a rebuild. And if you can accept the contradiction and believe that the team was both rebuilding and not rebuilding at the same time, then you’ll believe anything at all.
Bingo. Right on the money; this guy gets this regime. It's a rebuild, yet it isn't. In the words of the suddenly now out of favor Trevor Linden it's "whatever you guys want to call it."

Trevor understood life in the Aquiverse well.
 

F A N

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I don't fault Benning for telling Aqualini they could accomplish a quick rebuild. There aren't many GM/President jobs available so if you want one you listen to what ownership wants and you do your best.

It was a tough task for even a good GM, but with some good moves very possible. Numerous bad moves later, it was obvious that Benning wasn't the guy to get it done.

Tough spot for a rookie GM for sure, but when your first moves are trading for Luca Sbisa and Linden Vey along with hiring Willie Desjardins you aren't making things any easier on yourself.

Yep. I've said this from the start. I understand that there are people who will refuse to do the job if they don't have complete creative control. Mike Gillis appears to be one of them. But if you want the job and you believe in yourself then you should believe that you can work within the parameters. Like I said years ago, if I'm Benning I'm going in with my vision of what the ideal plan is but also have a plan B that I think the owners would like. When Mike Gillis first started here he came in saying that the Canucks were far from being contenders but at the same time say they were a few bold moves away. Gillis came away looking like he was highly critical of past management yet presented himself as some kind of saviour. The message is still "I can do it."

I think that overall Benning doesn't have a lot of patience. He sees a problem or an area for improvement he goes and try to fix it. His lack of patience can lead to bad moves but it also leads to him not falling into the blindly loyal trap that plagues most GMs. A 2nd round pick for Linden Vey? After one year it's show me. Sam Gagner was off the team with two years remaining. The Canucks paid a big price for Gudbranson and he was shopped and moved relatively quickly.

Good or bad, Benning doesn't sit around and wait for his previous moves to work out. He has made plenty of mistakes but he is relatively quick in his attempts to correct them.

I think his interview on 650 is enlightening. He's quite aware of fan criticism. He's also delegated a lot of duties that a lot of posters here feel he is not good at and contrary to the opinion that he doesn't delegate.
 

Numba9

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There isn’t a two sided issue. Jim Benning is a general manager who has missed the playoffs for 4 consecutive seasons who not only kept his job, but got extended. There is no conversation really to be had because this is new and uncharted ground. Nobody does a job as bad as this guy and still keeps his job. Yet he did. And got rewarded.

This is bizarro business/sports.
It's amazing how some people are incapable of understanding why Jim Benning got extended. Stating that missing the playoffs for 4 years as a main reason Benning should be fired is complete surface level thinking. 4 years of no playoffs was going to happen no matter who the GM was. GMs get fired because the team either gets worse, stagnates or there are internal issues within the management team. Benning's goal was to build a new young core ( the goal of every rebuild) which it looks like he's done. Add the fact that the team has progressed each of the last two years, it's pretty obvious why he was extended.
 

m9

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Yep. I've said this from the start. I understand that there are people who will refuse to do the job if they don't have complete creative control. Mike Gillis appears to be one of them. But if you want the job and you believe in yourself then you should believe that you can work within the parameters. Like I said years ago, if I'm Benning I'm going in with my vision of what the ideal plan is but also have a plan B that I think the owners would like. When Mike Gillis first started here he came in saying that the Canucks were far from being contenders but at the same time say they were a few bold moves away. Gillis came away looking like he was highly critical of past management yet presented himself as some kind of saviour. The message is still "I can do it."

I think that overall Benning doesn't have a lot of patience. He sees a problem or an area for improvement he goes and try to fix it. His lack of patience can lead to bad moves but it also leads to him not falling into the blindly loyal trap that plagues most GMs. A 2nd round pick for Linden Vey? After one year it's show me. Sam Gagner was off the team with two years remaining. The Canucks paid a big price for Gudbranson and he was shopped and moved relatively quickly.

Good or bad, Benning doesn't sit around and wait for his previous moves to work out. He has made plenty of mistakes but he is relatively quick in his attempts to correct them.

I think his interview on 650 is enlightening. He's quite aware of fan criticism. He's also delegated a lot of duties that a lot of posters here feel he is not good at and contrary to the opinion that he doesn't delegate.

It's hard to tell if he has a lack of patience or it just appears that way because of the situation. Is it lack of patience or is it just a sign of awful pro scouting and lack of foresight?
 

m9

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If Benning is found to be an average drafter, the propaganda around his tenure crumbles.

An average drafter would have had the same or similar hit/miss ratio. Perhaps 1 out of the park pick and a couple of high profile failures. Not so different from what we have seen.

It’s because Benning is regarded as a good drafter that he is still here. Good, not merely average. Even if it’s not factually true, he’s ridden that perception to 4 more years.

One of the best theatre performances the NHL has ever seen.

50% hit rate with top ten picks for Benning - right in line with league average & the exact same as the previous GM who was an awful drafter yet still managed to do the same with Horvat/Hodgson.
 

Svencouver

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No, drafting doesn’t outweigh 2/3rds of his job. These are mutually dependent factors serving the same goal: Rebuilding.

If you find better talent through trade/FA, you don’t have to draft as well. On the flip side, a poor performance at pro scouting creates that much more pressure at the draft table. In other words, drafting became that much more important because Benning was poor everywhere else. He didn’t even help himself at the draft table by getting more picks. Does someone who emphasizes the draft do this?

But back to the main question: What is your baseline? I would like to know what you would have expected another GM to do at the draft table? Per stats markers posted here before, Benning has been decidedly average at the draft table. Do you have a different analysis?

I think he has a point, though. Given where the franchise was, the most important goal the GM had was to build a new young core for the team going forward. I dont plan on doing some kind of larger meta-analysis of the make-up of teams that do well and where they acquired their core from, but just anecdotally it feels like a majority of them do it through the draft. So, it follows that drafting would be the most important factor, beyond things like pro scouting, in a rebuild.

Now, naturally, there are other factors to consider, that can expedite a rebuild exponentially; in particular, good asset management can really help you turn around a franchise in rapid fashion, as we've seen with teams like NYR (granted we haven't seen the results of this scorched earth rebuild process yet), and I'm not going to pretend whatsoever that Benning is good at asset management. Failing to leverage the assets he had (although its worth considering the context of each of those assets. He wasn't getting anything for the Sedins, for instance.), and targeting poor pro players have been his two biggest faults easily.

I do have to question the validity of any analysis that evaluates the the drafting acumen of GMs based on such recent drafts. Boeser has been in the league for two years, Pettersson for one. Juolevi still hasn't played a game in the NHL. We wont see the results of the Podkolzin draft for another two years or so. Demko is just starting to work his way into the league. It's still pretty early to evaluate the careers of talent drafted within the past 5 years.

It's also worth considering that while the Canucks have been the worst team next to Buffalo over the past four years, they haven't drafted like it. And I dont mean that in a derogatory fashion towards Benning, I mean that literally the draft position of the Canucks has regularly dropped from where they finished in the standings due to the lottery. Speaking of analysis, I vaguely remember a draft analysis that speculated that the success of a pick drops off exponentially in regards to draft position: i.e. picks 1-3 are far better than 4-10. The Canucks, despite their abject failure over the past 4 seasons, have drafted, at the lowest, at 5.

Considering that, I find it hard to put much objective merit to the sentiment of "well of course the Canucks have a good young core, they've been the worst team in the league over the past 4 seasons. Anyone could luck into that kind of core." When you consider the context of the draft position of that core and the opportunities the Canucks were presented to draft with in the first place, it becomes pretty obvious that the Canucks did at the very least a somewhat admirable job at the draft table.
 
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Pip

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It’s hilarious that people still buy into the narrative that Benning’s drafting ability outweighs everything that he has done. First off, even if he was an exceptional drafter and could prove to be the best in the league at it, the other aspects where Jimbo is objectively awful should still sink him. The goal is to win the cup, not have a good prospect pool. Secondly, he hasn’t shown to be anything but average in the drafting department. If consistently draft high and take player who reasonably project in that area you are inevitably going to end up with a young exciting core. People would be saying the same thing if we had drafted Nylander/Ehlers/Larkin, Tkachuk, Konecny, Glass etc. Hell, many posters here were able to identify Point and Kase on top of these players. It’s infuriating to see this garbage still being paraded around by the media and on here.
 

ccjon

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No, if you read what I said.

"Drafting outweighs pro scouting so long as he's not trading draft picks left & right anymore."

I didn't agree with the JT Miller trade, but trading basically 1 pick in 2 years is hardly what he was doing before. Its a clear change, he's been holding onto his picks for awhile now, which is simply what I was saying.

In the last two years Benning has traded away a 4th, 7th, 3rd, 1st, 6th.

In that time he's acquired a 6th, 7th, 7th.
 

Ryp37

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Agreed ...drafting is the most imperative asset on a rebuild ..Does not matter how good your trading or pro scouting is..If you can’t draft ..you won’t be employed for long.

So if the pro scouting is horrible during a rebuild does it magically become better when the teams ready to take the next step?

Really not getting the logic here. Man builds team that sucks its way into high picks, gets credit for being a good amateur scout because of it despite not being able to scout the pro ranks to save his life

If drafting is so important during a rebuild shouldn’t he have actually kept his picks and acquired more? Imagine if we drafted DeBrincat instead of acquiring Gudbranson? Wow we have two effective cost controlled young players instead of more dead weight
 
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I am toxic

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"Benning is an excellent judge of talent."

"Well, Sbisa, Gudbranson, Eriksson, Pouliot, Larsen, MDZ, Schaller, Bartkowski, Beagle, Clendenning . . ."

"Benning is an excellent amateur scout."

"Well, Virtanen, Juolevi, top 10 picks that a potato wouldn't miss on, picks thrown away left right and centre . . ."

"Wait and see on Virtanen and Juolevi. And you can pencil in Tryamkin/Podkolzin/Hoglander into our top 4 top 6 right now as soon as they come over here."

"Well, hold on, you just said wai . . ."

"You're toxic."
 

4Twenty

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GM's get way too much credit and blame for the draft. It's the part of the job a GM depends on a staff of others the most.

I agree with those that have stated that the hardest thing to do and the biggest job of the rebuild is to find the core players/cornerstone types. I remember when Benning engaged the re-tool on the fly, and being scared the team would get stuck in purgatory picking in the teens unable to find these players.

Thankfully Jim has put together teams he thought were playoff caliber and failed so miserably that he was able to get picks where those cornerstone players generally come from.

At the end of the day the guy gets way too much credit for building bad teams and getting top end picks for it, and I imagine the same group of people praising him in here now (largely the same group who's been doing it for his entire tenure) would be praising him just as strongly had the team drafted Konecny, Glass, and Dobson.
 

BeardyCanuck03

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"Benning is an excellent judge of talent."

"Well, Sbisa, Gudbranson, Eriksson, Pouliot, Larsen, MDZ, Schaller, Bartkowski, Beagle, Clendenning . . ."

"Benning is an excellent amateur scout."

"Well, Virtanen, Juolevi, top 10 picks that a potato wouldn't miss on, picks thrown away left right and centre . . ."

"Wait and see on Virtanen and Juolevi. And you can pencil in Tryamkin/Podkolzin/Hoglander into our top 4 top 6 right now as soon as they come over here."

"Well, hold on, you just said wai . . ."

"You're toxic."

The extreme sides fighting is always going to be stupid like this.

You could take the more rational approach and stick to the middle (which is closer to the truth).

Benning's pro scouting and pro player acquisition has been questionable at best. I think most GMs in the league have a lot of bad acquisitions as well but they have good ones to mask/distract the masses from them. Benning hasn't had a true BIG WIN of a pro player acquisition since becoming the GM.

I think it's fair to call the Virtanen pick a bad pick when Ehlers, Nylander etc have been much better. Tkachuk makes the Juolevi pick hard to take, but one more year of patience with Juolevi is needed IMO before making a cut and dry decision on if it's a wasted pick.

I get frustrated seeing people put Tryamkin in the top 4 as well, I don't see him being a top 4 dman if he comes back over. At best he could be a good bottom pair dman, which would be nice to add but he's not going to be a game changer. Podkolzin and Hoglander I think deserve the hype but they are still unknowns and projects. I personally do think we see Hoglander next season with the Canucks but I don't think he will slide immediately into the top 6.
 

tyhee

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No, if you read what I said.

"Drafting outweighs pro scouting so long as he's not trading draft picks left & right anymore."

I didn't agree with the JT Miller trade, but trading basically 1 pick in 2 years is hardly what he was doing before. Its a clear change, he's been holding onto his picks for awhile now, which is simply what I was saying.

You've slid into an incredibly inaccurate misstatement.

1. People seem to be ignoring completely that it was two picks traded for Miller, not just one. The trade was a 2019-3rd, 2020 or 2021-1st and a contract dump to Tampa for Miller.

2. You've changed your "almost two years" in your last post to "1 pick in 2 years."

If you go back two years you get him trading his 2019-3rd, 2020 or 2021-1st, 2020-7th and 2018-4th. So it isn't 1 pick in 2 years, it is 4. That may not be considered a lot, but trading 4 picks in 2 years is a hell of a lot different than 1 pick in 2 years. Hell, "1 pick in 2 years" makes it seem like he hadn't actually traded 3 picks (including an unprotected 1st rounder and a 3rd rounder) in just over 4 months.
 

MS

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It was 105 point team in 2015..and they were a playoff team...Only when they played, they were not..Benning said on the radio broadcast that after that series, he knew the Canucks had to rebuild...Some of the moves after that did not make sense (Eriksson?)

“They’re not going anywhere. I don’t know how I walk into the room and tell these guys, ‘Strip it down.’ I’m not sure it’s fair to these guys. There’s different circumstances, be it in Toronto or Carolina or Vancouver, that require different routes.”..Linden ,2016

What on earth? This just gets weirder and weirder.

So your argument is this?

1) Benning was fully on-board with competing now around the Sedins in 14-15, coming off a non-playoff season.

2) After putting up 101 points, Benning realized the team couldn't compete but Evil Trevor kept forcing bad moves that didn't make sense.

3) After the 15-16 disaster, mid-way through 16-17 Linden realizes a longer-term rebuild is necessary. But after deciding a 101-point team needed rebuilding and then watching the team fail for two years since, Benning now thinks it's time to compete again? And so clashes with Linden and Linden is gone.

Like, the mental gymnastics here are astonishing even for you.


If he makes the playoffs, that could very well be the case.

5 division titles in 6 years and nearly winning a Cup makes Gillis a demon in your eyes, but squeaking into the playoffs after 6 years makes Benning a God. Gotcha.
 
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