Confirmed with Link: Canucks draft F Bo Horvat 9th Overall (1st Round)

[vanuck]

You'd be happy trading a number one goalie like Schneider for a third line C?

He damn well better eventually become a very good number 2.

Was talking about Gaunce there.

 

[vanuck]

hawks fan saying they didn't trade a "#1 goalie like Scheider" for a "third line C". i'll leave van's goalie situation to the fans...but horvat is not a "third line C" ... he's a justifiable top 10 draft prospect w/ a bunch of intangibles...and the type of player a city can easily fall in love with. they will not be disappointed for having chosen him.

...as far as schneider goes...i guess you'll have to wait to see how he turns out...he's already been shoved into a 'back up' role in NJ b/c of Marty...which is a dangerous situation for a "#1 goalie" who only has two years left on his contract...especially on a team who just lost its top player...and has no 1st round draft pick this year.

the joke might end up being on NJ...if Schneider walks two years from now (how motivated would he be to re-sign w/ a team in the world class city of Newark, New Jersey...where, early on, they're relegating him to 'back up')...and they don't really have any good players?

lol, i'm standing up for the canucks

It Is strange but neat to see a Hawks fan in here defending this move.

 

[vanuck]

With NJ's situation is becoming interesting... With Kovy "retiring" from the NHL and from reports, lack of money @ ownership level + no first round pick next year... not really a situation that screams "SIGN HERE TO WIN". That means there might be a good chance he walks in 2 years... just better hope he doesn't decide to screw the 'nucks and sign with the Oilers, Flames, Sharks, Ducks, etc. Then MG would've screwed the team even more since he could've gotten more value for likely his replacement GM to work with.

Think that was actually the asking price from our end that was sky-high, not the Oilers' offer.

I'm the opposite - I think high numbers are silly and much prefer the team decked out in 'classic' low numbers.

When I watch Montreal play and all their guys are like #67 and #83 because all the low numbers are retired, it just seems kinda lame. There's something great about a star player in #9 or #19 or #4.

I just feel like there are so many different players over the years who take 'lower' numbers that it all kind of blurs together. Would be neat to see a standout wear a relatively higher number for once.

 

[vanuck]

I think you're a little off on your timelines there. Kesler seemed to alternate back and forth between being a great one-man show and being a great team player, even early on.

To me, the picture looks like this:

2005-2007: 10 goal, 23/27 point pace Kesler (Style A)
2007-2008: 22 goal, 38 point pace Kesler (Style B)
2008-2010: 26/25 goal, 59/75 point pace Kesler (Style C)
2010-Present: 41/23/19 goal, 71/52/63 point pace (Style B again)

Style A is hands of stone defense-focused Kesler, Style B is one-man end-to-end rushing and shooting Kesler, and Style C is well-rounded playmaking Kesler.

I agree that Style C, well-rounded playmaking Kesler is a better version of Kesler than the 41 goal Selke winning one. I'd love to see him return to that.

He was a well-rounded team player who made everyone else on his line better, and was still a PK/PP wizard and Selke-level defensive player both those years from 2008-2010. He also got more points than he ever did (75), and single-handedly CARRIED that second powerplay unit, which ended up being a more productive unit than the 1st Sedin unit. I think he was the biggest reason Raymond was a 53 point player that one year

That version of Kesler turned both Raymond/Samuelsson into legitimately great second liners (they had wishy washy years every other year), and turned a struggling Demitra-Sundin line into something damn effective.

Guy was brilliant those two years (although it's hard not to love the 41 goals he scored). Ideal version of Kesler, IMO, and THAT's the one that should have been winning Selkes, as we didn't have Malhotra back then.

I think we had Wellwood, so the picture is pretty clear here-- Unlike the Selke-year he actually WAS unquestionably the go-to shutdown guy (in fact, he was the only truly defensively capable center on the team) while providing all that offense.

That version of Kesler was a monster. On top of all that, I don't recall any sort of attitude/negative reputation back then either.

Agreed. I don't think people appreciate that version of him enough. The 2009-10 Kesler was a machine who took on top opponents and still managed to put up big point totals - I think that was the year he was most comparable to what Bergeron does now in his 2C role. At least he was a little more conducive to play-making IMO.

Not saying there's necessarily a difference between the two, but I take that RK17 over the 41-goal scoring, 70-point one the next season any day purely for his effectiveness at producing while still shutting down top lines.

 

[me2]

A number is a number.

 

[Verviticus]

Agreed. I don't think people appreciate that version of him enough. The 2009-10 Kesler was a machine who took on top opponents and still managed to put up big point totals - I think that was the year he was most comparable to what Bergeron does now in his 2C role. At least he was a little more conducive to play-making IMO.

Not saying there's necessarily a difference between the two, but I take that RK17 over the 41-goal scoring, 70-point one the next season any day purely for his effectiveness at producing while still shutting down top lines.

The 41 goal scoring Kesler was still an elite defensive player that had a probably unrepeatable, career year on the powerplay. They were otherwise the same player and Kesler did a fantastic job continuing his role through the playoffs until he got injured.

The year is almost certainly unrepeatable, but you wouldn't take a repeat of 2011 over a thing (2010) he will probably do anyways?

 

[vanuck]

The 41 goal scoring Kesler was still an elite defensive player that had a probably unrepeatable, career year on the powerplay. They were otherwise the same player and Kesler did a fantastic job continuing his role through the playoffs until he got injured.

The year is almost certainly unrepeatable, but you wouldn't take a repeat of 2011 over a thing (2010) he will probably do anyways?

For me the 41 goals aren't really as big a deal as the roughly equal point totals he put up in different situations. If he's not scoring them himself he's probably setting up his teammates equally as much anyway. It's hypothetical, and to see him hit the 40 goal mark is definitely nice, but I like the 'guaranteed' ~75 points while he's going up against top lines.

Probably a silly thing to nitpick over anyway but I've always thought that's how he's best utilized. Maybe that leaves another line to focus more on producing. Although, I should probably be referencing his ES totals instead (46 in 2009-10 vs. 39 in 2010-11). And of course I haven't accounted for shooting luck or anything like that.

If we had another pre-injury Malhotra here though, then by all means, let it rip!

 

[Tiranis]

08-09 was the best year for Kesler. 09-10 he didn't take on shutdown minutes anymore.

 

[vanuck]

08-09 was the best year for Kesler. 09-10 he didn't take on shutdown minutes anymore.

That is strange. I seem to recall him going up against the likes of Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Toews, Thornton, Getzlaf and other top forwards that year. Hmm.

 

[Tiranis]

That is strange. I seem to recall him going up against the likes of Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Toews, Thornton, Getzlaf and other top forwards that year. Hmm.

Well, he still played tough minutes, it's just that he wasn't the sole shutdown player at that point. Wellwood was right there behind him in terms of the minutes he played. If you look at 08-09, other than Sundin — who Kesler played with — there wasn't another center anywhere near Kesler in terms of competition they faced and zone starts.

That said, you could argue 09-10 was still a great year (or a better year). Somewhat easier minutes but better possession results and obviously more points. I was probably too dismissive in my first post.

10-11 was definitely the first year that Kesler played completely normal #2C minutes.

 

[BerSTUzzi]

An actual article in one of our newspapers about prospects (Gaunce and Horvat) http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/hockey/vancouver-canucks/Brendan+Gaunce+Horvat+line+nicely/8649198/story.html

 

[Bleach Clean]

Any comparisons made to Wennberg? He was the other C I think VAN would have considered in that spot. Or Domi, but height was the factor there.

 

[MikeK]

Horvat and Gaunce down the middle is freakin awesome. Both players are the next era of the Canucks and probably our next leaders. Both players have huge character with tuns of skill to go along with it. Looking at our prospect pool today as apposed to pre-draft I am quite impressed with what GMMG & CO were able to do. I was really worried about our future and thought we were looking closer to the CGY Flames then we all wanted to admit, but now I think we are in great shape for when the twins are done/gone. The Future is once again bright here.

 

[Verviticus]

taken from https://twitter.com/MattyPfeffer


context:

Matt Pfeffer ‏@MattyPfeffer 4h

All numbers relative to team average (0)

Domi: 0.07 QoT, -0.01 QoC
Horvat: 0.01 QoT, 0.04 QoC

Matt Pfeffer ‏@MattyPfeffer 4h

Sample size is indicated by Goals on Ice, which is like total goals (for and against) in sample.

so it's a small sample

 

[NonBruinHatingCanuck]

Wait What? So Is this Saying Horvat is not as Good without Domi?

 

[Hollywood Burrows]

Wait What? So Is this Saying Horvat is not as Good without Domi?

I think the conclusion we should draw is that the coaching staff in London used Horvat against the opponent's best players while using Domi in the softer minutes.

 

[Wisp]

In can infer a bunch of things. ultimately the sample sizes of them playing together are too small to lend any of them much weight.

 

[PG Canuck]

Approaching 1000 posts - new thread is up.

Closed.