Post-Game Talk: Canucks def. Stars - 5-4 (OT) (Beauvillier x2, Dries, Podkolzin, Kuzmenko)

[Play]

Maybe in 3 or 4 years. An 18 year old kid other than Bedard isn't going to step into this lineup and have much success. The biggest concern is the Canucks management might think the way you do. Draft a dman in the first round and then put him straight into the lineup and the poor kid will get run right out of the arena by players like McDavid and never recover.

I never implied that. Not sure what you’re on about.

 

[Oliewud]

im really starting to wonder if boeser completely stopped trying after the organization scratched him on hockey fights cancer night for his dad

he really looks like hes giving 75% effort

 

[JohnHodgson]

I've given lots of credit to management for good moves they've made, to the point where people here have called me an apologist for them.

If what Beauvilier is doing is sustainable and not just one of the hot streaks followed by weeks of invisibility that NYI fans were talking about, absolutely they deserve credit for correctly identifying a redeemable cap dump in a trade and putting him in a position to redeem his value.

But I also follow salaries and trade values pretty closely and think I have a pretty good grasp on them (or as good a grasp as you can really have in a league where Erik Gudbranson gets a 4x4 deal because of 1 GM) and $4 million wingers having 30-point seasons do not carry value. Kapanen was a nearly identical asset making $900k less and got waived. Kerfoot is widely perceived as a cap dump with very marginal value at best at $3.5 million despite scoring 51 points last year. We apparently can't give Conor Garland away at $4.9 million despite 50 ES points last season.

You seem to think that the only players who are cap dumps are bad players like Zaitsev and Craig Smith. There are also plenty of pretty decent players who are negative value/cap dumps because their contract doesn't provide value for their performance. Nobody has ever said that Beauvillier was a bad player - just that he was overpaid for the results he contributed over the prior two seasons and didn't carry value relative to his contract as a result.

Being cap dump is also a 'point in time' thing and changes with performances and new information. Again, Tanner Pearson was a cap dump in 2019 and then scored 30 goals in his next 88 games and wouldn't have been a cap dump a year later. And then he turned into a negative value asset again after signing a bad contract and delivering lesser performances. If Beauvillier keeps this up and finishes the year with 40+ points, he'll probably carry positive value again. And that would be an excellent result for the team and for management.

You're not putting things into context at all.

Look at his Beau's production from 2019-2021 - he's absolutely shown flashes of being a top six forward. Also, the Islanders are notoriously a low scoring team. Their highest scoring forward last year only had 59 points.

You are correct that he's overpaid. He's probably overpaid by about 500k to 1M with respect to his production... that doesn't make someone a cap dump. I guess Erik Karlsson's a cap dump too then since he's overpaid right?

Kapanen actually got claimed so I don't know if that's a great example on your side.

What you're trying to describe is a player that is not producing the equivalent to their salary. That doesn't make someone a cap dump unless the discrepancy is absolutely massive.

Sean Monahan is a cap dump. Nikita Zaitsev is a cap dump. Patrick Marleau is a cap dump. Marc Staal is a cap dump. Jason Dickinson is a cap dump. Matt Murray is a cap dump.

A cap dump is where you have to pay assets to get rid of said player because their contract is so egregious. If Beau is a cap dump, then any player that's 500k overpaid should be considered a cap dump??

 

[Ernie]

Miller extension is TBD. Everyone calling it a disaster but we won't be able to fairly evaluate this contract for 7 years.

I'm bullish on Miller though - I think he'll still be useful at 34-36 as a PP specialist, second line winger. 8M then won't be a big deal.

It is a disaster. Maybe the value isn't terrible but he's going to be declining and overpaid right when you'd hope the Canucks can be contending.

Not moving him last spring was a significant mistake. Fingers crossed they can find a taker for his contract now.

 

[MS]

im really starting to wonder if boeser completely stopped trying after the organization scratched him on hockey fights cancer night for his dad

he really looks like hes giving 75% effort

He looked exactly the same for all of last season and all of this season up until the near-scratch.

 

[Play]

im really starting to wonder if boeser completely stopped trying after the organization scratched him on hockey fights cancer night for his dad

he really looks like hes giving 75% effort

Seems to be making a better effort second half imo. Unfortunately it’s not good enough and he really has no role in this team.

Needs to be traded, priority number 1

 

[Sedinery]

Gotta love the media crap about playing with more structure. Demko made huge saves amongst multiple d zone breakdowns

Structure ?

 

[logan5]

It should be noted that Tyler Myers played 25:25 tonight (only Hughes played more), and he played the most even strength minutes out of all defensemen. The coaches obviously think he is more capable than 4 other d men that were out there.

 

[Nucker101]

Not even a little bit.

A player going on a hot streak after being acquired has nothing whatsoever to do with what their value was at the time of the trade. It changes their value after the fact.

The fact that Tanner Pearson scored 30 goals in his first 88 games as a Canuck doesn't mean he wasn't a cap dump that teams were retaining salary on when he was playing for 3 teams in 1 year and finishing with 20-something points.

Beauvillier can be both a cap dump AND a good move by management knowing they were going to have to take salary back to pick a redeemable cap dump who they could rebuild value on. This isn't something that's mutually exclusive. People seem to think that calling Beauvillier a cap dump means that people thought he was a stinky player that the team was dumb to acquire and that's just a massive strawman.

I can't believe this is an actual fact. Unreal

 

[Play]

He looked exactly the same for all of last season and all of this season up until the near-scratch.

Also not sure why you’re so shocked to hear there’s interest in Boeser from around the league.

He’s got a place in the NHL for a top 6 role, just not with how we’re “built”

 

[JohnHodgson]

that was a hot mess of a hockey game.

canucks were terrible and demko bailed them out enough to eke out a bad win. would have preferred they lost as they deserved,

i am happy for beauvillier, but i'll wait a while on celebrating a steal. the isles warned us he was streaky.

it is saying something when you dress four of your ahl dmen and tyler myers still stands out as bad. he's almost at the healthy scratch stage. in fact, he's almost at the go home and get your shit together and come back next september stage.

i thought garland had a good game playing with grinders. in fact, i think garland should play with grinders all the time. i don't think he needs good line mates, just guys who can shoot the puck when he gets it to them and crash the net.

kravtsov does not appear to be in game shape. in february. a little worrisome.

raty needs to spend every waking minute of the offseason improving his skating.

in spite of how lopsided it was, i did not miss stillman or oel.

I don't get this whole "streaky" business thing from Beau.

It's been 11 games... that's 13% of an 82 game season. He's been consistently good to very good in those games. How many number of games until we start giving this guy some respect?

 

[wonton15]

It should be noted that Tyler Myers played 25:25 tonight (only Hughes played more), and he played the most even strength minutes out of all defensemen. The coaches obviously think he is more capable than 4 other d men that were out there.

And he looked absolutely terrible doing it and continues to bamboozle all the coaches because his limbs are slightly longer than everyone elses.

Brisebois (an AHL first/second pairing defenseman) babysat him all night.

 

[Nucker101]

Also not sure why you’re so shocked to hear there’s interest in Boeser from around the league.

He’s got a place in the NHL for a top 6 role, just not with how we’re “built”

A place where the other 5 guys in the top 6 can carry his lazy ass?

 

[Soups On]

If Boeser is traded for any valuable assets I'll be surprised. He's a shell of what he was and clearly needs a change of scenery.

He'll get traded, have a redemption summer in which he completely devotes himself to getting in top form, and then proceed to play like 60+ scoring forward. And it will STILL be the right decision to trade him. It's unfortunate the way his career here played out following his rookie season where he showed so much promise.

 

[JohnHodgson]

It is a disaster. Maybe the value isn't terrible but he's going to be declining and overpaid right when you'd hope the Canucks can be contending.

Not moving him last spring was a significant mistake. Fingers crossed they can find a taker for his contract now.

We will see.

Check back in seven years.

I would bet heavy money that the "disaster" talk will look so stupid when all is said and done.

 

[MS]

You're not putting things into context at all.

Look at his Beau's production from 2019-2021 - he's absolutely shown flashes of being a top six forward. Also, the Islanders are notoriously a low scoring team. Their highest scoring forward last year only had 59 points.

You are correct that he's overpaid. He's probably overpaid by about 500k to 1M with respect to his production... that doesn't make someone a cap dump. I guess Erik Karlsson's a cap dump too then since he's overpaid right?

Kapanen actually got claimed so I don't know if that's a great example on your side.

What you're trying to describe is a player that is not producing the equivalent to their salary. That doesn't make someone a cap dump unless the discrepancy is absolutely massive.

Sean Monahan is a cap dump. Nikita Zaitsev is a cap dump. Patrick Marleau is a cap dump. Marc Staal is a cap dump. Jason Dickinson is a cap dump. Matt Murray is a cap dump.

A cap dump is where you have to pay assets to get rid of said player because their contract is so egregious. If Beau is a cap dump, then any player that's 500k overpaid should be considered a cap dump??

Again, you can be a good player and a cap dump.

Kapanen has been more productive over the past 5 years, was more productive this season, makes $900k less, and the league determined that he had zero value.

35-point players who are overpaid by $1 million are cap dumps. They don't carry value. Maybe they can be traded for another comparable cap dump, maybe they'd get claimed on waivers like Kapanen, whatever. But they are assets with extremely marginal value, at best.

If someone would have claimed Beauvillier off waivers a month ago or given up a 5th round pick for him or something, it doesn't change my overall point.

They were going to have to take bad cap back in a Horvat deal, and Beauvillier was the bad cap they took back. You're acting like I'm being critical of management when in fact if they correctly identified the best cap dump available that they could rebuild value on and have succeeded in finding a fit with that it reflects better on them than if they actually paid assets for a 30-point player at $4.1 million.

And Erik Karlsson on his full ticket probably is a negative value asset, yes.

 

[logan5]

And he looked absolutely terrible doing it and continues to bamboozle all the coaches because his limbs are slightly longer than everyone elses.

Brisebois (an AHL first/second pairing defenseman) babysat him all night.

Not all night because Brisebois played 5:35 less than Myers. I guess they see Myers as the least bad defenseman. Deploying one of the other defensemen the same way they deployed Myers tonight may have looked even worse. I trust the coaches if they think Myers is better than an AHL defenseman.

 

[Zippgunn]

And he looked absolutely terrible doing it and continues to bamboozle all the coaches because his limbs are slightly longer than everyone elses.

Brisebois (an AHL first/second pairing defenseman) babysat him all night.

Disagree I thought he was more good than bad tonight and, yes, he ate a lot of tough minutes.

 

[logan5]

Again, you can be a good player and a cap dump.

Kapanen has been more productive over the past 5 years, was more productive this season, makes $900k less, and the league determined that he had zero value.

35-point players who are overpaid by $1 million are cap dumps. They don't carry value. Maybe they can be traded for another comparable cap dump, maybe they'd get claimed on waivers like Kapanen, whatever. But they are assets with extremely marginal value, at best.

If someone would have claimed Beauvillier off waivers a month ago or given up a 5th round pick for him or something, it doesn't change my overall point.

They were going to have to take bad cap back in a Horvat deal, and Beauvillier was the bad cap they took back. You're acting like I'm being critical of management when in fact if they correctly identified the best cap dump available that they could rebuild value on and have succeeded in finding a fit with that it reflects better on them than if they actually paid assets for a 30-point player at $4.1 million.

And Erik Karlsson on his full ticket probably is a negative value asset, yes.

Are "bad cap" and "cap dump" the same thing. I see those as somewhat different things. The Islanders had to make cap room so they got rid of Beauvillier 4 million salary - "cap dump". Beauvillier's actual "bad cap" is not close to 4 million dollars though.

 

[JohnHodgson]

Again, you can be a good player and a cap dump.

Kapanen has been more productive over the past 5 years, was more productive this season, makes $900k less, and the league determined that he had zero value.

35-point players who are overpaid by $1 million are cap dumps. They don't carry value. Maybe they can be traded for another comparable cap dump, maybe they'd get claimed on waivers like Kapanen, whatever. But they are assets with extremely marginal value, at best.

If someone would have claimed Beauvillier off waivers a month ago or given up a 5th round pick for him or something, it doesn't change my overall point.

They were going to have to take bad cap back in a Horvat deal, and Beauvillier was the bad cap they took back. You're acting like I'm being critical of management when in fact if they correctly identified the best cap dump available that they could rebuild value on and have succeeded in finding a fit with that it reflects better on them than if they actually paid assets for a 30-point player at $4.1 million.

And Erik Karlsson on his full ticket probably is a negative value asset, yes.

Yeah I don't think you quite have the widely recognized definition of a cap dump.

By your definition, half the league are cap dumps LOL.

Anyone who isn't living up to their contract = cap dump

Let's just say you and I (and many others) have different definitions of cap dumps. A player underperforming their contract by 500k is not a cap dump in my humble opinion, but you do you.

I genuinely don't think the Canucks thought Beau was a "bad cap dump" that they HAD to take back. I think they actively targeted Beau as someone they were interested in because of his skill set. If Beau was just a cap dump, why wouldn't NYI just give us Bailey instead? He's older, worse and makes more.

In your opinion, in your interpretation, Beau was a cap dump and a nothing burger that had no value across the league. Sure - you have every right to view it from that perspective.

I think the Canucks knew exactly what they were doing by getting Beau. Their pro scouting has been really good for the most part. This acquisition reinforces that.

 

[Canuck Luck]

Again, you can be a good player and a cap dump.

Kapanen has been more productive over the past 5 years, was more productive this season, makes $900k less, and the league determined that he had zero value.

35-point players who are overpaid by $1 million are cap dumps. They don't carry value. Maybe they can be traded for another comparable cap dump, maybe they'd get claimed on waivers like Kapanen, whatever. But they are assets with extremely marginal value, at best.

If someone would have claimed Beauvillier off waivers a month ago or given up a 5th round pick for him or something, it doesn't change my overall point.

They were going to have to take bad cap back in a Horvat deal, and Beauvillier was the bad cap they took back. You're acting like I'm being critical of management when in fact if they correctly identified the best cap dump available that they could rebuild value on and have succeeded in finding a fit with that it reflects better on them than if they actually paid assets for a 30-point player at $4.1 million.

And Erik Karlsson on his full ticket probably is a negative value asset, yes.

I agree you can be a good player yet be a cap dump however being overpaid 1M doesn't make you a cap dump. The majority of the league would be cap dumps then.

I also disagree that Karlsson is a cap dump. Karlsson is a high value player that is un-moveable in the current climate given cap space and assets it would take to acquire him. You can be a high value player but be un-moveable just like you can be a good player and be a cap dump. If Karlsson today is a negative value asset, Connor McDavid has to be too. Theres 0 teams in the NHL today that could afford McDavid if Edmonton looked for the same parameters as San Jose for Karlsson. By your standards, that means McDavid is a cap dump too.

 

[JohnHodgson]

Are "bad cap" and "cap dump" the same thing. I see those as somewhat different things. The Islanders had to make cap room so they got rid of Beauvillier 4 million salary - "cap dump". Beauvillier's actual "bad cap" is not close to 4 million dollars though.

You explained it better than me in two sentences.

Props.

An inefficient contract/bad cap doesn't mean they're a cap dump.

To me...a true cap dump is where you're so bad, the team would rather send you to waivers and lose you for free just to get rid of that contract.

 

[Nucker101]

Yeah I don't think you quite have the widely recognized definition of a cap dump.

By your definition, half the league are cap dumps LOL.

Anyone who isn't living up to their contract = cap dump

Let's just say you and I (and many others) have different definitions of cap dumps. A player underperforming their contract by 500k is not a cap dump in my humble opinion, but you do you.

I genuinely don't think the Canucks thought Beau was a "bad cap dump" that they HAD to take back. I think they actively targeted Beau as someone they were interested in because of his skill set. If Beau was just a cap dump, why wouldn't NYI just give us Bailey instead? He's older, worse and makes more.

In your opinion, in your interpretation, Beau was a cap dump and a nothing burger that had no value across the league. Sure - you have every right to view it from that perspective.

I think the Canucks knew exactly what they were doing by getting Beau. Their pro scouting has been really good for the most part. This acquisition reinforces that.

This is the standard the elite teams operate at, that's why the Oilers with McDrai are where they are and why teams like Avs and the Bolts win cups.

They don't want inefficient contracts, especially for role players.

 

[EdJovanovski]

that was a hot mess of a hockey game.

canucks were terrible and demko bailed them out enough to eke out a bad win. would have preferred they lost as they deserved,

i am happy for beauvillier, but i'll wait a while on celebrating a steal. the isles warned us he was streaky.

it is saying something when you dress four of your ahl dmen and tyler myers still stands out as bad. he's almost at the healthy scratch stage. in fact, he's almost at the go home and get your shit together and come back next september stage.

i thought garland had a good game playing with grinders. in fact, i think garland should play with grinders all the time. i don't think he needs good line mates, just guys who can shoot the puck when he gets it to them and crash the net.

kravtsov does not appear to be in game shape. in february. a little worrisome.

raty needs to spend every waking minute of the offseason improving his skating.

in spite of how lopsided it was, i did not miss stillman or oel.

Tends to happen when you only play 1 game in the past 35 days lol, and then thrown into a new lineup with just one game day skate under your belt

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Disagree I thought he was more good than bad tonight and, yes, he ate a lot of tough minutes.

Since that god awful outing he had against Nashville, I would agree with you that he’s been more good than bad..