Post-Game Talk: Canucks 5 Oilers 2 - My kids are better than your kids!

[Ozone]

The thing is, I don't think Virtanen's shot/pass selection is that poor-- when the pass is a clear option, I think he usually makes the right decision. The problem is, alot of time I don't think he quite has the presence of mind to see the pass, and is probably usually more focused on more direct things.

It's not something that you can just get better at too easily ("work hard at being smarter!")

I think he just needs to get better at playing the practical and physically overpowering game he does (without making outright dumb Booth-like mistakes) and that's probably my best case scenario

Plus, wasn't it nice to see Virts actually play his game tonight. He was so busy keeping up with linemates that he didn't have time to think about how he should be playing the game. 'What does the coach expect in this situation?' 'Should I hit more?' etc.

The speed and fast movement of his line is exactly what Virt needs.

 

[quat]

A lot of people don't seem to know what hockey IQ is. Virtanen has played the same way style in every game in the pre-season and in his whole career. Nothing changed for him. He's a north south, creates room, physical, puck retrieval type guy. We all knew this. The biggest difference was that he was playing with Bo Horvat. Horvat had as much chances as Linden Vey but the difference was that Horvat potted the goals while Vey didn't. Edmonton's crappy defense gets some credit too. It's nice that Virtanen had a good game, but it's one game. One game doesn't put him over the other kid that has been good all pre-season.

I'm sorry, but the difference between Horvat and Vey isn't just that Horvat scored. It's also pretty clear that Virtanen is a much better player when he's looking for offense and not just focusing on hitting and being physical. He played the body in this game to get the puck or to force turn overs, his passing was great and he was getting to open spaces and played the boards much better. His defensive game looked about the same as it generally does.

Virtanen has the tools to become an extremely effective player, but it's clear he needs to be playing with the talent to bring that out in his game. As others have pointed out, Virtanen and Horvat play extremely well together, and that Sven looks equally as effective with them as well. There's that "ah ha" moment you see when players just connect with one another.

Vey just doesn't have the strength to move around the ice in traffic like Bo does, and that makes all the difference. Linden is obviously a very talented player, but it's not clear he's got the right mix to be effective in the NHL.

That said, if a couple of his shots had gone in, I think people would be going a bit easier on him ... but you just can't ignore how he gets worked on the ice in the defensive end by bigger and faster players.

 

[me2]

Ignoring for a moment the angst over who will or won't make the team out of pre-season ...

Man it feels so unreal to look down the bench and see so many young faces and realizing that these kids that we've anguished about the past couple of years - particularly Horvat (how could we pass on Nich?), Virtanen (Ehlers was there!!!!), and McCann (but we just drafted a 3C last year!) - are on the cusp of making the jump to full time NHLers (or in Bo's case a legit young star).

For so long we've had prospects with potential that never seemed to pan out - our list of successes from 2005-2011 is pathetic - and suddenly we have 5 kids who on the second to last game of the preseason are still on the team and outplaying their veteran counterparts.

And besides these 5, there is still Shinkaruk, Cassels, Subban, Boeser, and Demko who should be pushing in the next 1-2 years. For the first time in years I can actually see the line up that will be here after the Sedins and it actually doesn't depress me.

Now i'd still kill for a top 5 pick this year and a couple of extra firsts for Vrbata and Hamhuis at the deadline, but suddenly it doesn't seem as urgent as it did even just 2 weeks ago.

Happy times!

In some ways it is more urgent, if the kids keep developing that top 5 drafting window will close all to quickly.

 

[Shareefruck]

I still think Jake's "low iq" label is exaggerated. As we saw tonight he is more than capable of making "correct" decisions when the situation requires. Certainly he is inconsistent in this and how much he can improve this consistency will be the key to his success at this level. Overall I'd say Jake isn't a "creative" player - he isn't going to juke with the puck or be making spin-o-rama passes - and that can add to the low iq perception.

In some ways he reminds me of Trevor Linden back in the day. Linden played mainly in straight lines and 90% of his assists came on passes back to the point. But he was also great a puck retrieval (which Jake will be) and could back defences up with his speed (which Jake already does). It's not as fun as watching Nylander or McDavid dangle but it is a very useful role on an offensive line as we saw tonight.

It's still early and he has plenty of growing to but pretty good for NHL preseason game #5 of his career.

I think the fact that most people consider Trevor Linden as a guy who has always had fantastic hockey IQ despite playing a non-fancy straight-line game is actually evidence that people aren't just unreasonably mistaking/expecting Nylander/McDavid style dangles with hockey IQ.

Virtanen's hockey IQ is significantly lower than Trevor Linden's, IMO-- I definitely disagree with your assessment there. Virtanen is capable of making good passes when he sees them, sure. But I don't think his presence of mind on the ice is quite on the same level as alot of other good players who play pretty straightforward hockey. I think it's probably more to do with his mind racing when he's playing at as high of a pace as he does or something.

I actually think the level that he thinks the game reminds me a bit of Kesler (who is also very capable of making good passes). I think Kesler has far lower hockey IQ than young Linden did.

Much like with Kesler, no matter how dominant and effective he becomes all over the ice, there's always going to be a little something to be desired with the natural instincts.

 

[CherryToke]

Sutter > Bonino

 

[biturbo19]

It's kind of funny to me reading through this thread, some of the angst and anxiety over how we absolutely must force all these young players onto the team...because they just thumped the poster-child organization of "rushing young players to the NHL too soon".



That said...the youth really shined tonight. The way that Bae-Bo-Virtanen line played was obviously very encouraging.

The biggest thing for me was what Shorty commented on with Hutton - the way he bounced back from that really rough early series. He's looked very good in the preseason and seems to get better every game, but i've felt like the "hype" with him may have been getting a little bit too strong...counting the chickens before the hatch, with regard to keeping him on the NHL roster to start. But seeing the way he just shrugged off that tough series and came back with another very strong game...that makes me really think he can and should start the season with the NHL club. As a young player with that type of game, there will be mistakes (and yes, some of them will very likely end up in the back of our net), but the ability to shake that off and put it behind him like that...really impressive.

 

[CanaFan]

How dare you have any positivity towards a Benning-Linden led team.

Hehe, well there is plenty to be annoyed with Benning about but I try to take things case-by-case.

And I've been very critical of the drafting under Gillis but I am very willing to concede that 2012 is looking MUCH better than I had previously thought with Gaunce progressing very well since his 'meh' draft+1 and draft+2 seasons and Hutton being an absolute revelation in his first camp. Add those two to an already well-regarded 2013 draft and some good looking picks in 2014 and 2015 and we have more potentially high-end prospects/young NHLers since any time that I can recall.

 

[Rey]

I'm sorry, but the difference between Horvat and Vey isn't just that Horvat scored. It's also pretty clear that Virtanen is a much better player when he's looking for offense and not just focusing on hitting and being physical. He played the body in this game to get the puck or to force turn overs, his passing was great and he was getting to open spaces and played the boards much better. His defensive game looked about the same as it generally does.

Virtanen has the tools to become an extremely effective player, but it's clear he needs to be playing with the talent to bring that out in his game. As others have pointed out, Virtanen and Horvat play extremely well together, and that Sven looks equally as effective with them as well. There's that "ah ha" moment you see when players just connect with one another.

Vey just doesn't have the strength to move around the ice in traffic like Bo does, and that makes all the difference. Linden is obviously a very talented player, but it's not clear he's got the right mix to be effective in the NHL.

That said, if a couple of his shots had gone in, I think people would be going a bit easier on him ... but you just can't ignore how he gets worked on the ice in the defensive end by bigger and faster players.

There was never a comparison with Horvat and Vey. Anyone that plays with Horvat looks good.

Today, Vey and Horvat had the same amount of chances to score. This has nothing to do with how good they are individually. Had Vey scored on his chances, he woulda made his line look good. Horvat did score, so his whole line looked good. That's to simplify it for you.

 

[WTG]

Do we really need Prust on this team anymore? He was bought in for the PK and another guy to help Dorsett protect the younger players but with the acquisition of Sutter and Dorsett is still on the team anyways for protecting the kids. Could we not just waive Prust? Sutter, Higgins, Burrows, Horvat, Hansen, Dorsett, Gaunce can take over the PK roles.

Pretty much how I see it too.

We don't need Prust at all. In fact we don't need a lot of these vets on our team.

Other than Fighting is Prust a better option for this team than Virtanen at this point?

 

[CanaFan]

I think the fact that most people consider Trevor Linden as a guy who has always had fantastic hockey IQ despite playing a non-fancy straight-line game is actually evidence that people aren't just unreasonably mistaking/expecting Nylander/McDavid style dangles with hockey IQ.

Virtanen's hockey IQ is significantly lower than Trevor Linden's, IMO-- I definitely disagree with your assessment there. Virtanen is capable of making good passes when he sees them, sure. But I don't think his presence of mind on the ice is quite on the same level as alot of other good players who play pretty straightforward hockey. I think it's probably more to do with his mind racing when he's playing at as high of a pace as he does or something.

Linden's IQ was ok, it wasn't high end at all. He made simple, basic plays 90% of the time. His strengths were his speed, physicality, and intense competitiveness. He may be a bit higher than Jake but if you consider Linden an example of a "high IQ" player ... well we clearly have different memories of Linden then.

 

[DFAC]

i just wanna clone 12 horvats tbh

he can't do anything wrong, guy is playing like he left off against cgy

 

[Ozone]

Don't know what you're talking about.

..and I have no idea why I'm laughing.

 

[quat]

If Virtanen develops some hockey IQ and Bo doesn't stop progressing

we can have our own Getzlaf + Perry !

I can't think of a more dissimilar set of players to compare them to. lol.

 

[valkynax]

I reserve my final judgement until 9 games in with these young players, then maybe another 10 games after. They look promising, but the real season had not started yet, not to mention the need to have the mentality to battle through adversity.

If management are not completely insane they would serious consider keeping the HVB line at least for 9 games, and we should make the line's popularity abundantly clear.

MC and Ben the Hutt should also get their chance for at least 9 games.

But knowing our Jimmy, what's likely to happen is young players get sent down and Prust is offered a 2 year 3mil per contract.

 

[Ozone]

It's kind of funny to me reading through this thread, some of the angst and anxiety over how we absolutely must force all these young players onto the team...because they just thumped the poster-child organization of "rushing young players to the NHL too soon".



That said...the youth really shined tonight. The way that Bae-Bo-Virtanen line played was obviously very encouraging.

The biggest thing for me was what Shorty commented on with Hutton - the way he bounced back from that really rough early series. He's looked very good in the preseason and seems to get better every game, but i've felt like the "hype" with him may have been getting a little bit too strong...counting the chickens before the hatch, with regard to keeping him on the NHL roster to start. But seeing the way he just shrugged off that tough series and came back with another very strong game...that makes me really think he can and should start the season with the NHL club. As a young player with that type of game, there will be mistakes (and yes, some of them will very likely end up in the back of our net), but the ability to shake that off and put it behind him like that...really impressive.

Big difference. Huge.

They are a young team, getting younger, and looking for younger players.
We are, arguably, an old veteran team praying for some young player injections and excitement.

Huge.

 

[Shareefruck]

Linden's IQ was ok, it wasn't high end at all. He made simple, basic plays 90% of the time. His strengths were his speed, physicality, and intense competitiveness. He may be a bit higher than Jake but if you consider Linden an example of a "high IQ" player ... well we clearly have different memories of Linden then.

I think prime Linden's hockey IQ was pretty similar to Shane Doan's hockey IQ-- they don't have eyes on the back of their head, and they play very straightforward games, obviously, but I would call both high IQ players, personally. I think both of them are a noticeable tier or two above Virtanen and Kesler's hockey IQ.

I think it's not really about directly making plays with passes that lead to scoring chances (Virtanen is actually not too bad at this), it's the whole package of recognizing who's on the ice and what places to put pucks in, and where to go to receive passes so that momentum keeps moving in your favor. Guys like Linden and Doan are damn solid at this. Despite never blowing the roof off with something unthinkable, they generally don't take a wrong step, whereas Virtanen/Kesler are always taking wrong steps, and rely alot more on raw physical ability to work their way out of it.

 

[quat]

Oilers were 6-0 with something like a 25-8 goal differential before we got them tonight. Tonight they were rubbish, honestly they looked like the Oilers we saw every year for the last 5. There were missing 2 top 4 D, but the Canucks were missing the Sedins and Tanev/Edler and they held up much better.

One bad game isn't enough to write them off, so it will be interesting to see how respond Saturday, both rosters will likely be close to full strength. I have to think McCellan makes some structural changes to their system, they seem to have been caught off guard tonight by the Canucks speed and transition.

Oh, I'm not writing them off at all. The post I responded to was about the non stop McDavid pandering that's going on. A few years ago it was how Nugent-Hopkins was Gretzky, Hall was Messier, etc, etc. The Canadian media just can't help themselves with that team.

I was surprised that Nurse didn't make the cut and missing Eberle will make a difference as well.

 

[Ozone]

I realize this is obvious, but worth mentioning again, and again, and again..

Ben Hutton.



When was the last pre-season, we were this surprised, shocked, and happy, with a new guy?

 

[F A N]

The thing is, I don't think Virtanen's shot/pass selection is that poor-- when the pass is a clear option, I think he usually makes the right decision. The problem is, alot of time I don't think he quite has the presence of mind to see the pass, and is probably usually more focused on more direct things.

It's not something that you can just get better at too easily ("work hard at being smarter!")

I think he just needs to get better at playing the practical and physically overpowering game he does (without making outright dumb Booth-like mistakes) and that's probably my best case scenario

Every player transitioning to the pro game and especially the NHL game needs to make adjustments, especially for a player like Virtanen who had the speed to blow by most players and the strength to overpower most players in juniors. A lot of times it's recognizing situations. Do you make the safe play or try to make a play? Do you try to beat a defender one on one or wait for help. And if a player doesn't get better can he increase his scoring production? A good example would be Mikkel Boedker. He's a player who has been able to increase his offensive production and still has offensive upside, but analytics suggests he's not that good of a player and he remains a one-dimensional scorer.

 

[quat]

There was never a comparison with Horvat and Vey. Anyone that plays with Horvat looks good.

Today, Vey and Horvat had the same amount of chances to score. This has nothing to do with how good they are individually. Had Vey scored on his chances, he woulda made his line look good. Horvat did score, so his whole line looked good. That's to simplify it for you.

heh ... well, thanks for simplifying it for me. Given that I'm not the only one confused by what you wrote, perhaps you may want to at least take some of the responsibility and not just put it all on the customers.

 

[CanaFan]

In some ways it is more urgent, if the kids keep developing that top 5 drafting window will close all to quickly.

Ya that may be true, as I had always assumed that the post-Sedin era would have very little in the way of young top 6 players already in the system. I mean I was higher than most on Horvat back at the draft and even I would have said he tops out as a solid 2C at best. Now he honestly has the look and feel of a guy who could be one of the top dozen centres in the league in 3-4 years. McCann is showing more far sooner than I ever expected and Jake is showing glimpses of how well his toolsy north-south game might translate to the NHL. And Hutton ... I never really knew what to make of him because of total lack of exposure. But he looks like the D man we've wanted Edler to be since 2010 in terms of the offensive side of the game.

It's all turning out so .... in our favour that I'm having troubling believing that we might actually have one of the better pools of young kids coming into the league in the next 2-3 years. Minus that one elite top 3 that you build around.

So ya, I guess I do agree that the window for getting that pick is potentially going to be a lot smaller than I had thought. Still there's this year to be optimistic about if you are pro-miss-the-playoffs like me

 

[Shareefruck]

heh ... well, thanks for simplifying it for me. Given that I'm not the only one confused by what you wrote, perhaps you may want to at least take some of the responsibility and not just put it all on the customers.

He did, several times.

 

[Rey]

heh ... well, thanks for simplifying it for me. Given that I'm not the only one confused by what you wrote, perhaps you may want to at least take some of the responsibility and not just put it all on the customers.

Maybe for the other dude because it made a bit more sense and i did take responsible. You on the other hand, nope. Still have no idea how you came up with your conclusion.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Hey Connor, the regular season is just around the corner. I hope you're excited.

Hey Connor, the regular season is just around the corner. I hope you're excited.

Dear Connor,

Regular season is just around the corner and I hope you're excited. Welcome to Alberta. Also, if you aren't doing anything later on, I was thinking that we could go grab a bite to eat and then head over to my place for a cup of coffee. Let me know what you think.

Sincerely,

Mess.

 

[Shareefruck]

I realize this is obvious, but worth mentioning again, and again, and again..

Ben Hutton.



When was the last pre-season, we were this surprised, shocked, and happy, with a new guy?

For me it was Jannik Hansen when that Burrows - Kesler - Hansen line first formed in the preseason.

Although this does have more potential than that.