GDT: Canes vs. Wild

[bleedgreen]

maybe you're right, but some of the ones I've seen beat him this season have been beauties, and over the years all the top players have pretty goals against him if they can get it up there.

I just don't see him to be at blame at all. You never blame the goalie unless they're softies. These weren't. You don't like that he gives up glove shots, fine. That's not the one to complain about and it still wasn't a soft one at all. Making him stay below 2 goals a game is an impossible task. For every goal he lets in he stops a bunch that easily could've gone in. He makes great saves every game.

The classic line about goalies is, all we ask is for is a chance to win. Ward has given that this year. I don't think he deserves any of the blame. He showed up to play this year. Every goalie has his moments. Pick your favorite goalie, he wouldn't make this team any better. Not a goalie in this league could make us a playoff team the way we're playing.

 

[Joe McGrath]

I disagree that average goalies make that save. I think those shots go in on the best goalies too. Cam has always been susceptible to perfect glove shots. Why do we care now? Lack ain't any better. Cam's probably gone at the end of the season. Blaming a 2-2 game on a goalie just doesn't fly unless they are flat out soft goals, and these weren't. The third is a redirect during 3 v 3. Picking apart every goal and questioning angles is just focusing on small details when there's such a bigger problem. We're only a half step away from being an AHL team. That's a much bigger issue than Cam making sure he doesn't get beat short side, which would've gotten him actual criticism.

Which I've said repeatedly throughout this thread. I've blamed about a dozen fm different things for the loss. Ward doesn't top that list at all. I just said he should have had the first one.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

You could apply that type of logic to the entire team then. The PP is below average, so you shouldn't expect them to score, so why put the loss on that? The scorers are below average, so you shouldn't expect them to score so why blame the loss on that? etc..etc..

As I said earlier, it's not 1 thing. There were a half dozen things/players that could have changed the outcome of that game and Ward was one of them.

Just to clarify, the only time I referenced the PP was when Tarheel said Ward was "literally the difference between a W and an OT", at which point I pointed out that that wasn't true. Even if Ward played out of his mind, he couldn't be the literal difference in OT, because he can't score (or the odds are so slim, its not probable).

The literal difference between a W and an OTL, as in the thing that could have ended the game in OT, was the PP. Suter's in the box, the chances were there, but the conversion was...just painfully bad.

 

[Joe McGrath]

maybe you're right, but some of the ones I've seen beat him this season have been beauties, and over the years all the top players have pretty goals against him if they can get it up there.

I just don't see him to be at blame at all. You never blame the goalie unless they're softies. These weren't. You don't like that he gives up glove shots, fine. That's not the one to complain about and it still wasn't a soft one at all. Making him stay below 2 goals a game is an impossible task. For every goal he lets in he stops a bunch that easily could've gone in. He makes great saves every game.

The classic line about goalies is, all we ask is for is a chance to win. Ward has given that this year. I don't think he deserves any of the blame. He showed up to play this year. Every goalie has his moments. Pick your favorite goalie, he wouldn't make this team any better. Not a goalie in this league could make us a playoff team the way we're playing.

I think if Corey Schneider and Cam Ward switched places the teams switch records.

 

[Stickpucker]

maybe you're right, but some of the ones I've seen beat him this season have been beauties, and over the years all the top players have pretty goals against him if they can get it up there.

I just don't see him to be at blame at all. You never blame the goalie unless they're softies. These weren't. You don't like that he gives up glove shots, fine. That's not the one to complain about and it still wasn't a soft one at all. Making him stay below 2 goals a game is an impossible task. For every goal he lets in he stops a bunch that easily could've gone in. He makes great saves every game.

The classic line about goalies is, all we ask is for is a chance to win. Ward has given that this year. I don't think he deserves any of the blame. He showed up to play this year. Every goalie has his moments. Pick your favorite goalie, he wouldn't make this team any better. Not a goalie in this league could make us a playoff team the way we're playing.

Price or MAF may be able to drag this team to the playoffs. Look what MAF has done with a low scoring pens team with bad d.

 

[Zezima]

why the hell was riley nash out during the 3v3

 

[Joe McGrath]

why the hell was riley nash out during the 3v3

Because he has been easily one of their 6 best forwards over the last 2 weeks or so?

 

[RodTheBawd]

Nash has actually looked pretty solid in all 3 zones this season. Seems to surprise defenders when he carries the puck into the zone. Ideally you'd like the Staals out there to start, but Jordan was gassed.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The puck was headed five hole and was redirected 2 feet in front of him the moment he was closing off that hole. Should he be laying spread eagle across the goal line on every shot?

This is what I'm talking about:

He's playing small in the net. A fuller, larger butterfly OR a more aggressive position in the crease would have taken care of the deflection without his necessarily even needing to move.

I can only think of a couple of reasons that he would have made that save selection in that situation:

1) He physically cannot support his own weight in a wider stance

2) He didn't track the play well enough to anticipate the possibility of a deflection, and instead covered only the original trajectory of the puck (there were TWO Wild players there, it's not like it wasn't obvious what they were going for on that sequence)

Either way, it's problematic and it's the sort of thing that separates strong goalies from weak ones at the NHL level.

Same thing with the first goal. Why was he fading to the blocker side? There was simply no reason to do that with the shooter's options so limited. But he got sloppy with his angle, barely reacted to the shot and allowed a killer goal on what should have been a routine save.

Again -- this isn't to say that the team played super well and Ward torpedoed them. But the team gave Ward a chance to win the game (21 shots, only a few of them high quality, come the hell on) and he didn't get the job done. It's really hard to win games in the NHL when your goalie undermines the rest of the team like that.

 

[Vagrant]

the fact that we can't win regardless of who is in net and that the save percentages aren't terribly skewed suggest to me that it might not be the goaltending that's the main culprit unless you believe that Cam and Lack are both so far below average that another goalie in their place would have changed some outcomes for us. I don't subscribe.

 

[bleedgreen]

Nope. Not at all.

Though some obviously do think they're that bad. Some people even think other goalies could get this team in the playoffs.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Sure it is. No state income tax is a big selling point to many guys, and so is being on that close to the beach. It was the only place Luongo was willing to go when he got traded.

Um, maybe because he'd played there before for half a decade?

Every place has its perks. Except Winnipeg. If you care about raising a family, NC has a lot of advantages over South Florida. Players will come here if they make good money and if they have a chance to win, just like every other place in the league.

 

[Joe McGrath]

Um, maybe because he'd played there before for half a decade?

Every place has its perks. Except Winnipeg. If you care about raising a family, NC has a lot of advantages over South Florida. Players will come here if they make good money and if they have a chance to win, just like every other place in the league.

Then why haven't they in the past? Notable free agents they've signed are what, Francis and Semin? Guys like it here once they get here, but no one is seeking out the Canes. Florida signs 2 or 3 mid-tier vets every offseason without fail.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

It's really not that complicated. Of the bottom 10 goal scoring teams in the NHL, only 3 have a winning record (Pitts, Det, NJ). Those 3 teams, along with Tampa (who is .500), are also in the top ten for Goals Against / GP so they are offsetting their lack of scoring by keeping the puck out of their net (captain obvious) and are winning because of it.

- NJ does it by a combination of allowing less shots (5th best in the NHL) and decent (13th in the league for SV%) goaltending.
- Detroit does with goaltending as their SH against is 28th worst in the NHL (although the Canes games may have skewed that) but their goaltending SV% is 5th best in the NHL.
- PITTs does it with goaltending that is 3rd best in the NHL (SV%) because they are bottom 10 for shots against.
- TB is kinda middle of the road. 13th best for Shots Allowed/G and 10th best for Goaltending SV%

Canes, on the flipside are 2nd best team in the league for Shots allowed/G, but are 28th for goaltending SV% so they end up being in the bottom 10 for both GF and GA.

Now I fully realize that all shots are not created equal so you can't strictly go by averages, but to say that another goaltender could come in and give this team more wins than Cam Ward is not that difficult of a proposition to accept. It's also very fair to say that if the skaters could simply cash in and score more goals, they'd have more wins also so this isn't all about goaltending.

Very good teams usually have both
Average-Good teams usually have 1 or the other
Bad teams have neither, which is why the Canes, right now, are one of the bottom teams in the league.

 

[RodTheBawd]

This is what I'm talking about:

He's playing small in the net. A fuller, larger butterfly OR a more aggressive position in the crease would have taken care of the deflection without his necessarily even needing to move.

I can only think of a couple of reasons that he would have made that save selection in that situation:

1) He physically cannot support his own weight in a wider stance

2) He didn't track the play well enough to anticipate the possibility of a deflection, and instead covered only the original trajectory of the puck (there were TWO Wild players there, it's not like it wasn't obvious what they were going for on that sequence)

Either way, it's problematic and it's the sort of thing that separates strong goalies from weak ones at the NHL level.

Same thing with the first goal. Why was he fading to the blocker side? There was simply no reason to do that with the shooter's options so limited. But he got sloppy with his angle, barely reacted to the shot and allowed a killer goal on what should have been a routine save.

Again -- this isn't to say that the team played super well and Ward torpedoed them. But the team gave Ward a chance to win the game (21 shots, only a few of them high quality, come the hell on) and he didn't get the job done. It's really hard to win games in the NHL when your goalie undermines the rest of the team like that.

That angle makes it look like there's 3 feet of open net. Watch 4:28-4:29 of the video on NHL.com (I can't upload the SS anywhere). It looks pretty damn fundamental and that he gets beat by a gorgeous deflection. You mention he should anticipate a deflection with 2 players in front of the net. Look at where they are. What goalie on earth anticipates a deflection like that? We'll just have to agree to disagree, because I can't for the life of me put a goal like that on any goalie.

 

[Joe McGrath]

I know why the Canes stink, I've figured out. Unfortunately I don't know the remedy.

The goaltenders are always crap, right? This is evidenced by guys with success elsewhere coming here and being brutal (see Khudobin and Lack). The players are such crap ass finishers and the goalies only practice against them, thus reducing their ability to stop NHL players. Conversely, the goalies start to get worse, the players start scoring on them, but now they are below NHL quality goalies so it doesn't help the crappy shooters. And this cycle repeats itself until everyone on the team is in the AHL.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I know why the Canes stink, I've figured out. Unfortunately I don't know the remedy.

The goaltenders are always crap, right? This is evidenced by guys with success elsewhere coming here and being brutal (see Khudobin and Lack). The players are such crap ass finishers and the goalies only practice against them, thus reducing their ability to stop NHL players. Conversely, the goalies start to get worse, the players start scoring on them, but now they are below NHL quality goalies so it doesn't help the crappy shooters. And this cycle repeats itself until everyone on the team is in the AHL.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Then why haven't they in the past? Notable free agents they've signed are what, Francis and Semin? Guys like it here once they get here, but no one is seeking out the Canes. Florida signs 2 or 3 mid-tier vets every offseason without fail.

OMG, seriously? Because we don't meet either of the two requirements *I literally just cited*. We've paid poorly, and we haven't been close to competitive. For half a decade.

Why? Because we continue to have high-end dollars tied up in players that suck, or players that no longer play for us. Florida has had the freedom to sign mid-tier vets because they don't have bajillions of dollars of salary tied up in players that are no longer playing.

Look, if you want to convince yourself that Carolina is this terrible place, and that players would rather be anywhere else, be my guest. But until we can satisfy the two fundamental conditions of ANY ATHLETE EVER -- "pay me, and give me a chance to win" -- then it's not even a conversation worth having.

 

[Joe McGrath]

That angle makes it look like there's 3 feet of open net. Watch 4:28-4:29 of the video on NHL.com (I can't upload the SS anywhere). It looks pretty damn fundamental and that he gets beat by a gorgeous deflection. You mention he should anticipate a deflection with 2 players in front of the net. Look at where they are. What goalie on earth anticipates a deflection like that? We'll just have to agree to disagree, because I can't for the life of me put a goal like that on any goalie.

I can't put that one on him, but I can see what tarheel is saying. He could have had that one if he approached it differently. There's a difference between could have and should have in this case for me.

 

[Joe McGrath]

OMG, seriously? Because we don't meet either of the two requirements *I literally just cited*. We've paid poorly, and we haven't been close to competitive. For half a decade.

Why? Because we continue to have high-end dollars tied up in players that suck, or players that no longer play for us. Florida has had the freedom to sign mid-tier vets because they don't have bajillions of dollars of salary tied up in players that are no longer playing.

Look, if you want to convince yourself that Carolina is this terrible place, and that players would rather be anywhere else, be my guest. But until we can satisfy the two fundamental conditions of ANY ATHLETE EVER -- "pay me, and give me a chance to win" -- then it's not even a conversation worth having.

Pay me and give me a chance to win isn't any athlete ever. It just isn't. For plenty it's just pay me. See: Jagr.

I was at no point trying to say this is a terrible place to live. It is however one of the last places I would be looking to sign a contract with ownership in flux and being a non contender for the better part of a decade.

 

[Zezima]

Because he has been easily one of their 6 best forwards over the last 2 weeks or so?

lol that says SO much. i just don't think his game is well suited for 3 on 3.

 

[caniac247]

Blaming this lose on Cam is ludacris. Probably should have had the first, I'll give you that, but this lose is not on him. Also, if the 3 posts Skinner hit tonight were goals and not posts, we wouldn't be saying Dubynk was all that great. Dubynk was beat tonight a few times, he got lucky that the posts saved his behind.

Taking off the 2nd period is what lost the game. Then they had a chance to make it right with the PP in OT and it was atrocious.

We all know that if this team makes one mistake, it's in the back of the net. But if other teams make a mistake, we can't capitalize. It's the story of their lives.



Can someone put out an alert for Lindholm. Put his head on a milk carton or something. The dude is MIA. Don't know what is going on with him, but he needs to be found.

 

[tarheelhockey]

That's two Luda references in this thread.

 

[Vagrant]

That's two Luda references in this thread.

English major cringe.

 

[Discipline Daddy]

Didn't watch the game. But I cruised the Minnesota boards and found some discussion on Zucker's first goal here: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1981823&page=14. They added a gif. It looks like our defenseman deflected the shot high, making it a much harder angle for Ward to save. Either way, consider me in the Bleedgreen camp of you can't blame Ward for the perfect shot. That was a friggin laser either way. It'd be nice if some of our guys had that confidence right now.