Proposal: Canes-Leafs

[gallagt01]

I don't think this is good for Carolina at all, but that's also because I think Pesce = Kadri in terms of trade value.

Rask and McKeown >>> Carrick and Sparks.

 

[Critical13]

Not confused at all. Pesce can be a top pairing D on a cup winning team. I don’t think Kadri as a number one C would lead a team to the cup.

Good luck finding #1C with the same value as Pesce. No GM will be willing to move a guy like that for Pesce.

 

[Chan790]

And Kadri would be easily be the best C on Canes. Maybe in time, Aho or Necas would prove to be better, but right now, Kadri would be the best.

I agree with Zeke that both Kadri and Pesce were both being underrated in this thread.

I don't think Kadri is being underrated. He's a even swap for Pesce.

I don't think the Canes listen to offers on Pesce (or any of our top-4) until, like the #2, DW hears something that makes him think "Really?! They'd do that?!"

Our defense is our dominant competitive advantage as a team; I doubt the Canes brain-trust consider breaking it up for any fair offer.

 

[Fables]

And Kadri would be easily be the best C on Canes. Maybe in time, Aho or Necas would prove to be better, but right now, Kadri would be the best.

I agree that both Kadri and Pesce were both being underrated in this thread.

I also agree that both Kadri and Pesce are underrated here.

But Aho is alredy clearly better player than Kadri. And personally I think Kadri is very good shutdown center with good production.. when he is not being an idiot/hothead.
But I would be also willing to bet good money that Aho is also better center (and not just better player) already early next season... and not maybe somewhere in time.

A good proposal as such but I would not take this as Carolina as losing Pesce would hurt them more that gaining Kadri would help.
In 1(-2) years time there is a very good chance that Aho is very good 1C and Necas 2C.

As for Toronto I think they should to bite the bullet and trade Kadri. They will have elite 1-2C combo in Matthews and Tavares and this will probably take away some of the more productive playing time from Kadri causing his numbers to drop next season. Therefore downgrading 3C position to gain a good, young number 2 RHD on a good contract would be a win for them as finding those kind of guys is harder than finding a good 3C (even though not maybe not as good as Kadri).

 

[Halla]

You're right, he's a top-pairing RHD. For the Canes he's a #2....as he would be on many teams. One of those teams would be the Leafs. He'd easily be the best RHD.

how is the guy a top pairing RHD if he has never payed top pairing minutes?

 

[Halla]

You're right, he's a top-pairing RHD. For the Canes he's a #2....as he would be on many teams. One of those teams would be the Leafs. He'd easily be the best RHD.

yes, no doubt about that. but kadri would instantly be the best C the canes have.
AHo hasnt played enough C to prove he is better, he was something like 6th in ice time at the C spot for the canes

Necas looks like he will be good, but to say he will for sure be better than a 30+g 55-60pt 200ft C is pretty silly.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I don't think Kadri is being underrated. He's a even swap for Pesce.

I think Kadri > Pesce personally. He's got skill, he plays with an edge, is a center, can score and is solid defensively.

I don't think the Canes listen to offers on Pesce (or any of our top-4) until, like the #2, DW hears something that makes him think "Really?! They'd do that?!"

Our defense is our dominant competitive advantage as a team; I doubt the Canes brain-trust consider breaking it up for any fair offer.

Fair enough.

I don't think Toronto is looking to move Kadri either. He plays a key role, frees up Tavares and Matthews to play a more offensive role, and is part of the competitive advantage the Leafs have. It would need to similarly be a "Really? They'd do that?" type of offer before they'd move him.

I also agree that both Kadri and Pesce are underrated here.

But Aho is alredy clearly better player than Kadri. And personally I think Kadri is very good shutdown center with good production.. when he is not being an idiot/hothead.
But I would be also willing to bet good money that Aho is also better center (and not just better player) already early next season... and not maybe somewhere in time.

Thing is, Aho has ~10 games (when the season was shot and nothing was on the line) at center in the NHL. Aho is my favorite player, but if you ask me what I'm more comfortable with this season for the Canes, I'd feel much better with Kadri at C and Aho at W.

A good proposal as such but I would not take this as Carolina as losing Pesce would hurt them more that gaining Kadri would help.
In 1(-2) years time there is a very good chance that Aho is very good 1C and Necas 2C.

I'm not so sure. Canes currently have Hamilton, Faulk, TVR, McKeown (who we could remove from this proposal), Martin and Fox as RHD on the team / in the system. I think the team could absorb the loss of Pesce for the right deal. I'm not sure THIS is the right deal, but IMO, it's not far off in terms of value and taking into account both teams needs.

It won't happen though as I think neither team is looking to move the main pieces in this proposal.

As for Toronto I think they should to bite the bullet and trade Kadri. They will have elite 1-2C combo in Matthews and Tavares and this will probably take away some of the more productive playing time from Kadri causing his numbers to drop next season. Therefore downgrading 3C position to gain a good, young number 2 RHD on a good contract would be a win for them as finding those kind of guys is harder than finding a good 3C (even though not maybe not as good as Kadri).

Kadri is signed for a good price and plays a key role. Pittsburgh won without an outstanding defense. Being strong down the middle is key IMO. The Pens won with Crosby, Malkin, Staal down the center as well for their first cup win.

 

[Halla]

Pesce is certainly not a better player than Kadri, but he's the clear second best in this trade. If this is what he would cost I would rather do Faulk for Gardiner+ or whatever it would take.

Pass.

I honestly doubt the leafs even do Gardiner for Faulk, let alone add

last 2 seasons
95pts vs 68pts
also while I dont like +/- a whole lot its +33 vs -44...which is significant
gards blows faulk away in the fancy stats as well. if the leafs are going after a canes dman i hope its pesce/slavin and not faulk. basically a better shooting, worse passing/skating version of gards

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I honestly doubt the leafs even do Gardiner for Faulk, let alone add

last 2 seasons
95pts vs 68pts
also while I dont like +/- a whole lot its +33 vs -44...which is significant
gards blows faulk away in the fancy stats as well. if the leafs are going after a canes dman i hope its pesce/slavin and not faulk. basically a better shooting, worse passing/skating version of gards

Canes don't do a Gardiner for Faulk either. Slavin, De Haan, Fleury and Bean...so there's no need for Gardiner in a deal for Faulk.

Re: the numbers you posted above. A LOT of that is because of the team they are on, but it's not important or worth debating, because your point about not doing Gardiner for Faulk from a Leafs POV is valid, regardless of the numbers.

 

[emptyNedder]

One key for me is that Pesce still has upside. In fact, before being shut down as a precaution at the end of last season, he had 9 points in 19 games. If he puts up 35 points in a season to go along with his shutdown defense, then he is close to being a 1D.
Kadri has shot 13.6% and 15.2% and scored 12 power play goals the past two seasons, so he is probably a 30-goal/60-point at his peak. That is good.

But Aho is alredy clearly better player than Kadri. And personally I think Kadri is very good shutdown center with good production.. when he is not being an idiot/hothead.
But I would be also willing to bet good money that Aho is also better center (and not just better player) already early next season... and not maybe somewhere in time.

If the Canes were looking to make a deep playoff run next season, then Kadri would have equal value to Pesce. However, Pesce is four years younger with room to grow. That matters given the Canes young core.

 

[GoldiFox]

g
"can be" but you just said leafs get a top pairing RD....pesce has always been a 2nd pairing guy for the canes.
this is essentially a 2C for a #3D. Anyways forgive me for finding it ridiculous that people keep calling all these 18-20 min guys top pairin dmen yet point out that kadri ISNT a 1C (despite being good in his own end and 9th among C in goals over the past 2 years)

Slavin-Pesce is the Canes top pair. They have been for 2 years. Not a debate here, you just have no idea what you speak of.

wait kadri isnt a 1C bcause he was used as a 2c (even though he would easily be the best C on the canes) but pesce is a top pairing D despite never playing more than faulk,slavin or even hainsey?

you know this is pesce not slavin right? i think you are confused

The gap in value between Slavin and Kadri is much, much larger than the gap between Kadri and Pesce.

 

[zeke]

Canes don't do a Gardiner for Faulk either. Slavin, De Haan, Fleury and Bean...so there's no need for Gardiner in a deal for Faulk.

Re: the numbers you posted above. A LOT of that is because of the team they are on, but it's not important or worth debating, because your point about not doing Gardiner for Faulk from a Leafs POV is valid, regardless of the numbers.

eh I'm with you guys on Pesce but not on Faulk. I don't think the Leafs would be interested in giving up anything of significant for Faulk.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

eh I'm with you guys on Pesce but not on Faulk. I don't think the Leafs would be interested in giving up anything of significant for Faulk.

That's what I was trying to say when I said I agreed with him that not doing Gardiner for Faulk is a valid from a Leafs POV. I've said multiple times in the past when other Leafs fans suggested it that Faulk is not the right guy for the Leafs to go after.

 

[Notsince67]

I also agree that both Kadri and Pesce are underrated here.

But Aho is alredy clearly better player than Kadri. And personally I think Kadri is very good shutdown center with good production.. when he is not being an idiot/hothead.
But I would be also willing to bet good money that Aho is also better center (and not just better player) already early next season... and not maybe somewhere in time.

A good proposal as such but I would not take this as Carolina as losing Pesce would hurt them more that gaining Kadri would help.
In 1(-2) years time there is a very good chance that Aho is very good 1C and Necas 2C.

As for Toronto I think they should to bite the bullet and trade Kadri. They will have elite 1-2C combo in Matthews and Tavares and this will probably take away some of the more productive playing time from Kadri causing his numbers to drop next season. Therefore downgrading 3C position to gain a good, young number 2 RHD on a good contract would be a win for them as finding those kind of guys is harder than finding a good 3C (even though not maybe not as good as Kadri).

Babcock likes centers and defensemen. He would move a center to wing before agreeing to move him

 

[Jerkob Slavin]

eh I'm with you guys on Pesce but not on Faulk. I don't think the Leafs would be interested in giving up anything of significant for Faulk.

In my opinion, Faulk is going to have a great bounce back season. Peters ran a system of tight gaps that did not play to his strengths. His shot % was also ridiculously low. I see a player that was snake bitten last season. Excited to see what he’ll do under a new coach and scheme.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

In my opinion, Faulk is going to have a great bounce back season. Peters ran a system of tight gaps that did not play to his strengths. His shot % was also ridiculously low. I see a player that was snake bitten last season. Excited to see what he’ll do under a new coach and scheme.

I expect he will too, but he isn't a good match for Toronto as they already score a ton of goals. They need a guy like Pesce more.

 

[NotOpie]

yes he would.

And Naz would easily be the best C on the Canes.

Nope, currently the best center on the Canes is probably Jordan Staal. I'd rate him higher that Kadri when considering his over all game. While Nazem is a better offensive player, Staal is significantly better on defense, has better possession numbers and is much better at the dot. This isn't meant to minimize Kadri's defense, just an opinion that all things considered, I'd take Staal over Kadri.

how is the guy a top pairing RHD if he has never payed top pairing minutes?

You clearly haven't watched the Canes. He's the right-handed half of the top pair (with Slavin). Minutes don't tell you everything as Pesce gets very little to no PP time.

I'm not sure THIS is the right deal, but IMO, it's not far off in terms of value and taking into account both teams needs.

Agreed, especially given Pesce's contract. Kadri also has a good deal but it is shorter in term and, frankly, for a position that more easily replaced for Carolina.