GDT: Canes @ Caps - 1/2/14 7:00PM

[Roughing]

I believe the Wizards are 1 game under .500. That is a long way from 3-13.

I understand that many want to run down Leonsis but to equate the state of the Caps to that of the Redskins is absurd.

The Wizards have been a disaster for a loooong time while the Caps muddle along in mediocrity, which is only really being held up by the luck of having AO. I hate the Skins and Snyder, as a person and an owner, but the Skins won 10 games and their division last year. They haven't been good but 3-13 is the low mark and they've averaged about 7-9 for the last decade. Dan is an ***hole, and has no clue, but at least wants to win. Ted seems like a sweetheart, with no clue, and doesn't appear to care about results. As a fan, you don't want either near your team... and with Angelos killing the Orioles it's a rough time for local fans.

 

[Ajax1995]

The Wizards have been a disaster for a loooong time while the Caps muddle along in mediocrity, which is only really being held up by the luck of having AO. I hate the Skins and Snyder, as a person and an owner, but the Skins won 10 games and their division last year. They haven't been good but 3-13 is the low mark and they've averaged about 7-9 for the last decade. Dan is an ***hole, and has no clue, but at least wants to win. Ted seems like a sweetheart, with no clue, and doesn't appear to care about results. As a fan, you don't want either near your team... and with Angelos killing the Orioles it's a rough time for local fans.

You brush off 3-13 and hold up winning a division, and losing in the first round, like it is some huge accomplishment yet call the Caps many division wins, and 1st and 2nd round losses, over the last decade mediocrity. In that decade the Redskins have double digit losses 6 times.

They both want to win but just don't know how. Leonsis spends to the cap limit and stays out of the way. He isn't getting the most out of his team but they are still decent. Snyder spends but is a meddling disaster who can't stop sabotaging his organization and the results are awful twice as often as they are decent.

Again, equating those two organizations in any way as far as on ice/field results goes is absurd.

 

[Roughing]

The Caps have won three playoff series in 14 seasons. All first round series. Playing in a bad division, in a league where the majority of teams make the playoffs. Mediocre is a nice way to describe the Caps. If Ted is going to make this team a winner he better get off his ass and do something...

 

[Ajax1995]

The Caps have won three playoff series in 14 seasons. All first round series. Playing in a bad division, in a league where the majority of teams make the playoffs. Mediocre is a nice way to describe the Caps. If Ted is going to make this team a winner he better get off his ass and do something...

Nobody is going to argue that Leonsis has his team anywhere close to a cup but they are a heck of a lot better than the Redskins have been under Snyder.

The Post had a nice little graph on the front page of the Sports section today showing playoff appearances since '99, coincidently the Snyder years. The Redskins are tied for the 8th worst over that time with 4.

 

[g00n]

Nobody is going to argue that Leonsis has his team anywhere close to a cup but they are a heck of a lot better than the Redskins have been under Snyder.

The Post had a nice little graph on the front page of the Sports section today showing playoff appearances since '99, coincidently the Snyder years. The Redskins are tied for the 8th worst over that time with 4.

And in fairness, the Skins play in the (usually) competitive NFC East while the Caps had been in the typically weak SE Division. Fwiw, this is the first year the NFC East has EVER had a division winner finish with less than 10 wins.

The NFL also only advances 6 teams per conference based on a 16 game schedule while the NHL goes for 8 based on 82 games. Making the playoffs in the NHL and NBA simply means being average or above.

If the NHL only took 6 teams and seeded like the NFL the outcome would be different in the East:

12-13: 6th by 1 point
11-12: 7th, out by 10 points
10-11: 1st by 1 point
09-10: 1st by 18 points (sigh)
08-09: 2nd in conference
07-08: 7th, out by 1 point
06-07: 14th, out
05-06: 14th, out
03-04: 14th, out
02-03: 6th by 5 points
01-02: 9th, out
00-01: 7th by tiebreaker, out
99-00: 2nd in conference
98-99: 12th, out

So by NFL standards, even with the SE Conference, the Caps would have made the playoffs 6 times, or 2 more times than the Redskins, in 14 seasons. Not a huge leap. Plus, 2 of those 6 would be sneaking in with the last playoff spot by a cumulative total of 6 points.

I don't think there's really a clear winner here in terms of which team sucked less in that period. Other than the peak 3 year span in the BB era, the Caps have been a bad to average team despite multiple roster and coaching moves, which is what the Skins have been. And neither team has had any notable playoff success.

 

[Langway]

Fwiw, this is the first year the NFC East has EVER had a division winner finish with less than 10 wins.

The Giants finished 9-7 in 2011 and won the Super Bowl.

The Redskins are significantly more dysfunctional than the Caps but both are far from model franchises. Leonsis may not meddle anymore but he certainly used to and it quite arguably lead to their eventual teardown. Had he not meddled initially maybe McPhee wouldn't get the benefit of the doubt like has for so long.

 

[g00n]

The Giants finished 9-7 in 2011 and won the Super Bowl.

The Redskins are significantly more dysfunctional than the Caps but both are far from model franchises. Leonsis may not meddle anymore but he certainly used to and it quite arguably lead to their eventual teardown. Had he not meddled initially maybe McPhee wouldn't get the benefit of the doubt like has for so long.

Sorry I knew that and just typed it all wrong in my haste. Here's my relevant post from the Skins thread when I researched it:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=76243679&highlight=giants#post76243679

"...since its creation in 1970 the NFC East has NEVER had a team win the division with a .500 record. In fact, the only time the division winner has ever been below double digit wins in a non-strike season was in 2011... the NY Giants were 9-7...and went on to win the Super Bowl."

Still, the point. Strong division at the top, where the playoff seeds come from, historically. Though teams from the SE and NFC East have similar numbers of appearances and wins in league championship games in that span.

 

[Langway]

While certainly true when it comes to playoff format, it's not like the Redskins have been remotely close most years. Over the past five seasons in particular, the only year they were anywhere near competitive they made it.

Cerrato was as bad a front office guy as there will ever be. The lows with the Redskins have been lower and more frequent. The Caps are routinely disappointing but that's partially because there are actually expectations.

 

[g00n]

While certainly true when it comes to playoff format, it's not like the Redskins have been remotely close most years. Over the past five seasons in particular, the only year they were anywhere near competitive they made it.

Cerrato was as bad a front office guy as there will ever be. The lows with the Redskins have been lower and more frequent. The Caps are routinely disappointing but that's partially because there are actually expectations.

Look at their finishes in that span

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Washington_Redskins_seasons

There are a lot of 8 or 9 win teams that still finished 3rd or worse due to the strength of the division. Both teams have had bad stretches, middling stretches and a few good years. It's not a far a divide between the Caps and Skins as we might think.

 

[Ajax1995]

And in fairness, the Skins play in the (usually) competitive NFC East while the Caps had been in the typically weak SE Division. Fwiw, this is the first year the NFC East has EVER had a division winner finish with less than 10 wins.

The NFL also only advances 6 teams per conference based on a 16 game schedule while the NHL goes for 8 based on 82 games. Making the playoffs in the NHL and NBA simply means being average or above.

If the NHL only took 6 teams and seeded like the NFL the outcome would be different in the East:

12-13: 6th by 1 point
11-12: 7th, out by 10 points
10-11: 1st by 1 point
09-10: 1st by 18 points (sigh)
08-09: 2nd in conference
07-08: 7th, out by 1 point
06-07: 14th, out
05-06: 14th, out
03-04: 14th, out
02-03: 6th by 5 points
01-02: 9th, out
00-01: 7th by tiebreaker, out
99-00: 2nd in conference
98-99: 12th, out

So by NFL standards, even with the SE Conference, the Caps would have made the playoffs 6 times, or 2 more times than the Redskins, in 14 seasons. Not a huge leap. Plus, 2 of those 6 would be sneaking in with the last playoff spot by a cumulative total of 6 points.

I don't think there's really a clear winner here in terms of which team sucked less in that period. Other than the peak 3 year span in the BB era, the Caps have been a bad to average team despite multiple roster and coaching moves, which is what the Skins have been. And neither team has had any notable playoff success.

First of all the NFL does not just let in the 6 best teams in each conference, just ask Arizona, they take the 4 division winners and then the next 2 best teams. So the Caps would have gotten in in '07-'08 as a division winner. And while that also would have been the case in '00-'01 how are you putting them 7th in points anyway? The Devils had 111, Sens 109, Flyers 100, Sabres 98, and Pens and Caps 96. So they would be top 6 anyway.

So in this fantasy, change the rules to make Redskins good / Caps bad fans feel better the Skins make the playoffs 4 times in 15 years and the Caps 8 times.

Yeah not much of a difference there. These organizations are more or less in the same place...

 

[g00n]

First of all the NFL does not just let in the 6 best teams in each conference, just ask Arizona, they take the 4 division winners and then the next 2 best teams. So the Caps would have gotten in in '07-'08 as a division winner. And while that also would have been the case in '00-'01 how are you putting them 7th in points anyway? The Devils had 111, Sens 109, Flyers 100, Sabres 98, and Pens and Caps 96. So they would be top 6 anyway.

So in this fantasy, change the rules to make Redskins good / Caps bad fans feel better the Skins make the playoffs 4 times in 15 years and the Caps 8 times.

Yeah not much of a difference there. These organizations are more or less in the same place...

It's not changing the rules, it's perspective. If we're going to try and pretend the stats for playoff appearances are comparable then lets compare what they really mean, including how tough it is to get in (and that means looking at the strength of divisions, etc).

BTW, In 00-01 the Pens had more wins, which would have given them the tiebreaker back then, iirc.

 

[Ajax1995]

It's not changing the rules, it's perspective. If we're going to try and pretend the stats for playoff appearances are comparable then lets compare what they really mean, including how tough it is to get in (and that means looking at the strength of divisions, etc).

BTW, In 00-01 the Pens had more wins, which would have given them the tiebreaker back then, iirc.

And even with your added perspective the Caps got in the playoffs twice as often as the Skins over that time.

In '00-'01 the Caps had the 6th most points in the Eastern Conference. The Pens 5th most, with said tie breaker.

 

[g00n]

And even with your added perspective the Caps got in the playoffs twice as often as the Skins over that time.

In '00-'01 the Caps had the 6th most points in the Eastern Conference. The Pens 5th most, with said tie breaker.

Yes I didn't shift everyone up when I readjusted, but EVERY other point that you're conveniently ignoring still stands. SE sucked, half the league gets in, a few really good seasons and the rest were meh, no playoff success, etc. Just like the Skins.

Deal with it.

 

[Ajax1995]

Yes I didn't shift everyone up when I readjusted, but EVERY other point that you're conveniently ignoring still stands. SE sucked, half the league gets in, a few really good seasons and the rest were meh, no playoff success, etc. Just like the Skins.

Deal with it.

Every other point? If you turn the NHL in the NFL as far as getting into the playoffs are concerned the Caps get in 8 times in 15 years compared to the Skins 4 times. Only one of those 8 is the result of winning a crappy division and not finishing with one of the top 6 records in the conference. That happens in the NFL also, just ask Green Bay.

 

[g00n]

Every other point? If you turn the NHL in the NFL as far as getting into the playoffs are concerned the Caps get in 8 times in 15 years compared to the Skins 4 times. Only one of those 8 is the result of winning a crappy division and not finishing with one of the top 6 records in the conference. That happens in the NFL also, just ask Green Bay.

82 games vs 16 games. Unbalanced schedule. Weak division.

Either you're ignoring those things or you think they don't matter. Both teams are chokers.

 

[Ajax1995]

Both teams are chokers.

Not arguing that.

I'm arguing that the Caps are a much better organization as far as on ice/field results go and that Leonsis is a much superior owner than Snyder.

The Skins are an absolute horrible organization and the Caps are merely mediocre.

 

[g00n]

Not arguing that.

I'm arguing that the Caps are a much better organization as far as on ice/field results go and that Leonsis is a much superior owner than Snyder.

The Skins are an absolute horrible organization and the Caps are merely mediocre.

Then we're done here since that's apparently totally subjective.

 

[Ajax1995]

Then we're done here since that's apparently totally subjective.

Yeah twice as many double digit loss seasons as winning ones over the last 10 years for the Skins is very subjective...

 

[g00n]

Yeah twice as many double digit loss seasons as winning ones over the last 10 years for the Skins is very subjective...

Now you're just cherrypicking and trolling.

 

[Ajax1995]

Now you're just cherrypicking and trolling.

What can I say, the last 10 seasons of Skins football just freakishly lined up perfectly to make it much easier to be a Caps fan...