Prospect Info: Canadiens 2015 Rookie Tournament Thread (Sept 11th to 13th) Part II

[JusticeBeaver]

What does that even mean "Basketball player on skates"? I'm sorry, scout or not, if someone says that I wouldn't take their opinion seriously.

Give me the dude's twitter or email, I'd gladly argue with him.

I don't think it means as harsh as its taken, but keep in mind McCarron wasn't even top 30 in points last year, and typically players in that range very seldom make it to a top 6 NHL role. My expectation is bottom 6, and the rest is up to him. Not writing him off, and he seems to be taking his game seriously so there is hope. If he becomes a hard working player, willing to use that size and force pucks to the net, or battle in front, no reason he can't become an effective NHLer.

 

[bipolarhabfan]

I kind of agree...but we're at the point now where our prospect pool isn't going to look like gangbusters. We're trading picks and picking late because we're trying to win. We're not the Leafs or the Jets, every year isn't going to be a great crop for us by nature.

It has not looked good for eight seasons, which is inexcusable. Since the Subban, Pacioretty, McDonough draft the team's drafting has left a lot to be desired. A string of first rounders who did not meet expectations in David Fisher, Louis Leblanc, Jared Tinordi, and Nathan Beaulieu is what we have. The only one who may meet expectations is the latter. Since 2007 the only offense the team has drafted and developed are Galchenyuk and Gallagher. The number of games played by our drafted players since then is 644. Remove The two Gallys from the equation and the rest of of our draft picks have only played 244 games. Aside from Sherbak and McCarron there is not much NHL offense to speak of, which is why we are constantly looking for quick fixes up front: Cole, Ryder, Parenteau, Briere, Semin, Kassian, etc.

 

[LaP]

I don't think it means as harsh as its taken, but keep in mind McCarron wasn't even top 30 in points last year, and typically players in that range very seldom make it to a top 6 NHL role. My expectation is bottom 6, and the rest is up to him. Not writing him off, and he seems to be taking his game seriously so there is hope. If he becomes a hard working player, willing to use that size and force pucks to the net, or battle in front, no reason he can't become an effective NHLer.

He finished 33rd. But he played less games than aomw of guys in front of him.

If we go strictly by ppg :


Player GP G A PTS PIM PPG
1 Connor McDavid 47 44 76 120 48 2,55
2 Mitchell Marner 63 44 82 126 53 2
3 Dylan Strome 68 45 84 129 32 1,9
4 Max Domi 57 32 70 102 66 1,79
5 Michael Dal Colle 56 42 51 93 18 1,66
6 Joseph Blandisi 68 52 60 112 126 1,65
7 Christian Dvorak 66 41 68 109 24 1,65
8 Anthony DeAngelo 55 25 64 89 115 1,62
9 Kevin Labanc 68 31 76 107 55 1,57
10 Sergey Tolchinsky 61 30 65 95 10 1,56
11 Alex DeBrincat 68 51 53 104 73 1,53
12 Andrew Mangiapane 68 43 61 104 54 1,53
13 Cole Cassels 54 30 51 81 100 1,5
14 Jared McCann 56 34 47 81 27 1,45
15 Tyler Bertuzzi 68 43 55 98 91 1,44
16 Brendan Perlini 43 26 34 60 22 1,4
17 Sonny Milano 50 22 46 68 24 1,36
18 Josh Ho-Sang 60 17 64 81 46 1,35
19 Michael Bunting 57 37 37 74 39 1,3
20 Nick Ritchie 48 29 33 62 113 1,29
21 Jason Dickinson 56 27 44 71 32 1,27
22 Matt Rupert 61 30 45 75 74 1,23
23 Carter Verhaeghe 68 33 49 82 38 1,21
24 Remi Elie 63 30 46 76 38 1,21
25 Justin Bailey 57 34 35 69 44 1,21
26 Michael McCarron 56 28 40 68 128 1,21

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Actually, it wasn't an impressive bunch. Not becuase of what they might show in the future....but for what they showed in this tournament. Not exactly detrimental to him...but when Ryan Johnston is your most impressive prospect....you then know they weren't as a bunch that impressive. But there are still quite a few hopefuls for the future for sure...nobody is or should write anybody off based on this tournament.

oh yeah for sure. I'm not laughing at the fact he doesn't like our prospects its that after all the negative comments he still says they're a 'good bunch of kids'.

No Andrighetto, No Juulsen, No Vejdemo, no Tinordi, no Lehkonen, no DLR, no Reway. Thats a pretty good chunk of our top 15 prospects. Plus a Scherbak who could be injured. I'm glad Hudon, McCarron and Lernout did well.

 

[yianik]

I remember Patches after his 1st call up. A few people thought it was too early to make a call on him, but most thought he would be bottom 6, with a good number calling him a bust.

What I know is that no matter what we are seeing today, the chances are very high that one of X number of top prospects will eventually show why they were considered a top prospect and end up a top 6 forward or top 4 D. In addition to that there will be f players that will come out of the B pool of prospects, some maybe out of nowhere, that will show they belong in the NHL ( like Gallagher ), and maybe even be a top end player. There will also be disappointments.

It's all about the pool, and having a good number of prospects with decent average quality. Any one player may not pan out.

Just have to let time and development do their their thing. Relax. Enjoy.

 

[hototogisu]

It has not looked good for eight seasons, which is inexcusable. Since the Subban, Pacioretty, McDonough draft the team's drafting has left a lot to be desired. A string of first rounders who did not meet expectations in David Fisher, Louis Leblanc, Jared Tinordi, and Nathan Beaulieu is what we have. The only one who may meet expectations is the latter. Since 2007 the only offense the team has drafted and developed are Galchenyuk and Gallagher. The number of games played by our drafted players since then is 644. Remove The two Gallys from the equation and the rest of of our draft picks have only played 244 games. Aside from Sherbak and McCarron there is not much NHL offense to speak of, which is why we are constantly looking for quick fixes up front: Cole, Ryder, Parenteau, Briere, Semin, Kassian, etc.

I hear you, but let's look at the truth of the matter over those 8 years - we're not giving our scouting department many chances to hit home runs or even doubles. NHL offense is a problem but look how few swings we've taken since our famous 2007 draft. Number of forwards selected in the top 60:

2008: 1 (Kristo, traded)
2009: 1 (Leblanc, traded)
2010: 0
2011: 0
2012: 2 (Galchenyuk & Collberg, traded)
2013: 3 (McCarron, de la Rose, Lehkonen)
2014: 1 (Scherbak)
2015: 0

McCarron, Lehkonen and Scherbak are still in development so time will tell if they become NHLers for us and DLR is already an NHLer. So from 2008 to 2012, outside of Galchenyuk there's a huge void of nothingness. 2 busts and 1 traded prospect who is trending towards a bust. 8 picks in the first 2 rounds in the last 8 years is giving your scouting department an insanely slim margin for error. When you're relying on picks from rounds 3-7 to become your future top-six NHLers, you've already more or less lost that game. The fact that we even have Gallagher and hopefully Hudon from that crop is a small miracle in itself. No surprise our prospect pool hasn't really shown any fruits from those years - there weren't even any seeds to plant to begin with.

 

[Price is Wright]

I remember Patches after his 1st call up. A few people thought it was too early to make a call on him, but most thought he would be bottom 6, with a good number calling him a bust.

"I think he'll have the career of Mike McPhee. Same potential."
- Pierre McGuire, paraphrased, on Pacioretty

 

[FloJack]

"I think he'll have the career of Mike McPhee. Same potential."
- Pierre McGuire, paraphrased, on Pacioretty

Even at the time of him saying that I just couldn't help think what a weird comparison. And I wasn't sure Pacioretty would be who he is now even, but he never seemed like Mike McPhee to me.

 

[LastWordArmy]

What did they have to say

Both are seen as nhlers. Hudon gritty
.. has heart... gonna go through a brickwall to make it if he has to was one quote.

Scherbak skilled but not ready defensively.

 

[Halakitlikethat]

Even at the time of him saying that I just couldn't help think what a weird comparison. And I wasn't sure Pacioretty would be who he is now even, but he never seemed like Mike McPhee to me.

I remember him saying that In a preseason game against Detroit in 2009, I'm too young to have watched McPhee play, what kind of player was he?

 

[montreal]

I don't care what anyone has to say about McCarron since at this point in his development we just don't know what he will end up being. I don't have any problem with people saying he'll be a bottom 6 forward or not in the NHL. It's a safer call then saying he'll be a top 6 forward for sure. You just don't see many kids like him when he was drafted, 18 and that big as a forward but very raw.

I think of him as someone that's a year or two behind other top 50ish draft picks out of the CHL as they grow up playing in the best hockey system in the world and while the USA is clearly improving to the point they are a top 5 program in hockey world overall imo and could be a top 3 program. But it's just not the same in the US as it is in Canada, so I'm glad he got 2 years in what over the last few years may be the best junior league in Canada and the world in the OHL as they have been churning out talent lately.

Now it's about how he will take the things he's learned from his OHL days and how he will apply them to the pro level. I don't know how it will go for him, what I do suspect is that he will help the Habs just about more then any other NHL team as we so sorely need someone like him for so long. Now we finally have a hulking forward that wants to hit people and is willing to drive to the net hard every shift but also be a real pain to move from the crease. Someone that will bang in the rebounds in tight as he's going to be very tough to move off the puck when he's in his prime. He seems willing to learn and put in the efforts to improve on his weaknesses, but you never know when a prospect is going to peak or keep improving and at what rate.

So we'll just have to wait and see what McCarron becomes and it starts this year. I'm sure he'll get a look in the NHL if not this year then next unless he really struggles. The main question I have is about how his offensive game translates say 5 years from now. To me he's an underrated passer, he's going to score his fair share of goals especially from around the crease. But I also think over the 2 years that I've watched him that he's still raw in his overall game and has a lot of little things to improve upon, which isn't a big deal, just that in some ways he's a bit behind other top prospects but in other ways he's ahead since he has NHL size/strength/physical game with good skating/speed for such a big body.

Let's face it though, some posters have had it in for him since the second he was drafted. I don't care what their reasons are, it's clear to me but anything anyone says at this point good or bad doesn't mean much as we just don't know what he will end up being for us, only time will tell.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

I don't care what anyone has to say about McCarron since at this point in his development we just don't know what he will end up being. I don't have any problem with people saying he'll be a bottom 6 forward or not in the NHL. It's a safer call then saying he'll be a top 6 forward for sure. You just don't see many kids like him when he was drafted, 18 and that big as a forward but very raw.

I think of him as someone that's a year or two behind other top 50ish draft picks out of the CHL as they grow up playing in the best hockey system in the world and while the USA is clearly improving to the point they are a top 5 program in hockey world overall imo and could be a top 3 program. But it's just not the same in the US as it is in Canada, so I'm glad he got 2 years in what over the last few years may be the best junior league in Canada and the world in the OHL as they have been churning out talent lately.

Now it's about how he will take the things he's learned from his OHL days and how he will apply them to the pro level. I don't know how it will go for him, what I do suspect is that he will help the Habs just about more then any other NHL team as we so sorely need someone like him for so long. Now we finally have a hulking forward that wants to hit people and is willing to drive to the net hard every shift but also be a real pain to move from the crease. Someone that will bang in the rebounds in tight as he's going to be very tough to move off the puck when he's in his prime. He seems willing to learn and put in the efforts to improve on his weaknesses, but you never know when a prospect is going to peak or keep improving and at what rate.

So we'll just have to wait and see what McCarron becomes and it starts this year. I'm sure he'll get a look in the NHL if not this year then next unless he really struggles. The main question I have is about how his offensive game translates say 5 years from now. To me he's an underrated passer, he's going to score his fair share of goals especially from around the crease. But I also think over the 2 years that I've watched him that he's still raw in his overall game and has a lot of little things to improve upon, which isn't a big deal, just that in some ways he's a bit behind other top prospects but in other ways he's ahead since he has NHL size/strength/physical game with good skating/speed for such a big body.

Let's face it though, some posters have had it in for him since the second he was drafted. I don't care what their reasons are, it's clear to me but anything anyone says at this point good or bad doesn't mean much as we just don't know what he will end up being for us, only time will tell.

agreed. 3rd liner seems like the safest bet imo. i think he has tons of room to improve for pretty much the reasons you stated. Plus his development curve is hugely impressive. i still think he could crack the top 6 but it would be a nice scenario if he doesn't even have to since our top 6 will be great. We'll see.

 

[montreal]

agreed. 3rd liner seems like the safest bet imo. i think he has tons of room to improve for pretty much the reasons you stated. Plus his development curve is hugely impressive. i still think he could crack the top 6 but it would be a nice scenario if he doesn't even have to since our top 6 will be great. We'll see.

As I said in another thread when talking about him and Chipchura among other picks, if McCarron ends up a solid 4th liner and helps the Habs win a cup or two, I don't think too many will complain (since he could be a 1st All star and some would still complain about something since it's what this board does best). Clearly there's a big difference on being a solid NHLer for a cup contender vs being a top line 6 on a team that can't make the playoffs consistently. Hopefully the Habs are cup contenders for a long time to come, if so that's just going to make it that much harder for our prospects to have an impact over the long haul and of course make Timmins and his staffs jobs a little tougher when picking in the late 20's to 30th or even later if/when high picks get traded before the draft.

 

[Grant McCagg]

People get too caught up in whether a player is a second or third liner IMO. On truly good teams there is essentially no difference between the second and third lines in many cases....was Bryan Bickell etched in stone as a second-liner the past three playoffs? Hell he wasn't even dressing in the finals....guys bounce all over the place on most teams..especially on the second and third lines.

From the beginning of least season until the end I would be willing to bet that Anaheim tried at least a dozen different players in their top six.

The Habs employed Weise as a first-line winger for quite a stretch last season..and their record during that time was pretty good considering he's at best a bubble third liner. McCarron may already be a better player than Weise. In McCarron I see a guy who could play anywhere from third-line center to first-line winger.....I thought he was unquestionably the best Hab prospect at the tournament.

Back when the Habs had a true dynasty in the 70's..Lambert, Risebrough and Tremblay were all 30-goal scorers...they were "called" the third line..but many nights they played more minute than Mondou's line...especially in the playoffs. In fact there were many nights Gainey's line played more than Mondou's.

No I'm not comparing this team to that one..only pointing out that people can get too hung up on slotting plays into specific roles when lines and players are juggled all of the time anyway on most teams..Mac will play multiple roles in Mtl I'm sure thanks to his versatility..for me he certainly has attributes that could help a top-two line some day...or he could also end up being dynamite third-line center on a very good team.

I would be less than shocked if Mac ended up playing plenty of NHL games at both wing and center before he's through...which would make it even tougher to slot him.

 

[Grant McCagg]

I wasn't as elated with Hudon's performance as some ...and disagree that he was the best player....he'll have to work on his play away from the puck before he's playing center in the NHL at his size...we know he can play a lot better defensively..so there's no panic..but he will have to be better in main camp to compete for an NHL spot. May need another year at least. There is no rush...nor is there realistically a spot at this time. McCarron is ahead of him on the Hab depth chart at this time IMO.

 

[Rapala]

I wasn't as elated with Hudon's performance as some ...and disagree that he was the best player....he'll have to work on his play away from the puck before he's playing center in the NHL at his size...we know he can play a lot better defensively..so there's no panic..but he will have to be better in main camp to compete for an NHL spot. May need another year at least. There is no rush...nor is there realistically a spot at this time. McCarron is ahead of him on the Hab depth chart at this time IMO.

I always thought he would end up on the wing?

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

People get too caught up in whether a player is a second or third liner IMO. On truly good teams there is essentially no difference between the second and third lines in many cases....was Bryan Bickell etched in stone as a second-liner the past three playoffs? Hell he wasn't even dressing in the finals....guys bounce all over the place on most teams..especially on the second and third lines.

From the beginning of least season until the end I would be willing to bet that Anaheim tried at least a dozen different players in their top six.

The Habs employed Weise as a first-line winger for quite a stretch last season..and their record during that time was pretty good considering he's at best a bubble third liner. McCarron may already be a better player than Weise. In McCarron I see a guy who could play anywhere from third-line center to first-line winger.....I thought he was unquestionably the best Hab prospect at the tournament.

Back when the Habs had a true dynasty in the 70's..Lambert, Risebrough and Tremblay were all 30-goal scorers...they were "called" the third line..but many nights they played more minute than Mondou's line...especially in the playoffs. In fact there were many nights Gainey's line played more than Mondou's.

No I'm not comparing this team to that one..only pointing out that people can get too hung up on slotting plays into specific roles when lines and players are juggled all of the time anyway on most teams..Mac will play multiple roles in Mtl I'm sure thanks to his versatility..for me he certainly has attributes that could help a top-two line some day...or he could also end up being dynamite third-line center on a very good team.

I would be less than shocked if Mac ended up playing plenty of NHL games at both wing and center before he's through...which would make it even tougher to slot him.

agreed as well. the top 9 especially is fairly interchangeable. I think McCarron could play in a variety of roles in the top 3 lines. He can do a lot of different things. Just because his point production might not 'translate' to the bigs doesn't mean he can't be effective in the top 6 making space and winning a bunch of board battles for 2 other skilled guys

 

[NoNachoNoParty]

Im personnally a big Mac fan. He has a sweet shot, decent hands, good speed, a monster in the dot, good attitude...i just cant see him stuck in a bottom 6 role with all the tools he has. Kid has a ridiculously high ceiling imo.

 

[Mario le Magnifique]

I wasn't as elated with Hudon's performance as some ...and disagree that he was the best player....he'll have to work on his play away from the puck before he's playing center in the NHL at his size...we know he can play a lot better defensively..so there's no panic..but he will have to be better in main camp to compete for an NHL spot. May need another year at least. There is no rush...nor is there realistically a spot at this time. McCarron is ahead of him on the Hab depth chart at this time IMO.

Agreed.

I'm biased towards Quebec born players a lot but I think Hudon was tentative and was trying to do too much. He obviously wanted to impress and to score goals but there are other aspects of his game that the mngmt is looking at, and knowing them that is mostly his play without the puck. IMO he was too quick outside of his zone and out of position on breakouts (and I heard him say in an interview that Therrien had talked to him about him 'cheating' to produce more offense, and that led to a drop of production last year, which is a bad habit he developped in Juniors, and Therrien wanted him to play a 'safer' game, etc). I don't think it's his year unfortunately, these rookie games showed me that he still 'cheats'.

As for McCarron, I like his size, and his aggressiveness... But his stamina is low and he won't be able to keep up in the NHL I'm afraid, ATM. Needs endurance. I noticed he would have a strong 30 seconds but if he couldn't change he became sloppy and couldn't fight out of a wet paper bag along the boards, was stemmed in his D zone from time to time. Also, I wasn't impressed by his linemates, who I think were Crisp and Bozon (someone correct me), who are clearly not even close to be NHLers one day, they didn't help McCarron offensively, although Bozon scored with his pants. Like you Grant I think McCarron was our best prospect, but his linemates really dragged him down.

 

[zzoo]

No practice for the rookies today ?

 

[29dryden29]

I talked to a number of pro scouts this weekend who were at the rookie tournament. Every single one I talked to said McCarron's upside was bottom 6. Every one. No one wants to go on record with the evaluations, so I won't give names... but it was 10 guys who work for various NHL teams. There was debate if he could even make the NHL as a bottom 6 guy, and one scout was downright vicious, saying he'll never make it and is "a basketball player on skates."

These are guys employed as pro scouts by NHL teams... but ok, argue with them if you want.

Interviews with Carr, Hudon, Johnston, Miceli, Scherbak, McCarron (twice), Fucale, Bozon, Lefebvre (three times),

http://lastwordonsports.com/2015/09/15/habs-rookie-tournament-audio/

I have been saying this about McCarron since he came to London as I know some people within the organization with the Knights and some pro and ameture scouts who like you said will not go on record for just this reason. I have been *****ed at for this but the info is credible and people can take from it what they will. I was told he was moved for issues relating to his attitude.

 

[montreal]

here's the final stats in case anyone is interested, didn't keep them for the tryouts.

Addision- 3 1-0-1 4 pims
Audette- 3 0-0-0
Bennett- 2 0-0-0
Bourque- 2 0-0-0 2 pims
Bozon- 3 2-0-2 9 pims
Brown- 2 0-0-0
Carr- 3 1-0-1
Crisp- 3 1-0-1
Didier- 2 0-0-0
Grégoire- 3 0-1-1 12 pims
Hanley- 2 0-1-1
Hudon- 3 2-0-2
Lernout- 3 0-0-0 7 pims
McCarron- 3 0-0-0 9 pims
McNally- 2 0-2-2 7 pims
Scherbak- 3 0-2-2 4 pims
Thrower- 3 1-1-2 7 pims

 

[Gustave]

Even at the time of him saying that I just couldn't help think what a weird comparison. And I wasn't sure Pacioretty would be who he is now even, but he never seemed like Mike McPhee to me.

Not to pile on because projecting a young player's career is very hard but I can swear to you that Stephane Leroux was very vocal about Max never topping the 3rd line grinder status. Like never ever. He said it in the offseason after his first year or second year in Montreal.

 

[Monctonscout]

Actually, it wasn't an impressive bunch. Not becuase of what they might show in the future....but for what they showed in this tournament. Not exactly detrimental to him...but when Ryan Johnston is your most impressive prospect....you then know they weren't as a bunch that impressive. But there are still quite a few hopefuls for the future for sure...nobody is or should write anybody off based on this tournament.

I thought they were pretty solid.

Not sure where you get that Johnston is the "most impressive prospect". He was probably the biggest surprise since he played well and isn't a top 20 rated guy. He's also 3 years older than the big names(Scherbak Fucale Lernout McCarron Bozon etc) on the roster.

Honestly, I'm still not sold on McCarron's offensive potential. Calling him a 4th liner at this point is a little harsh, but saying he's surefire top 6 is delusional.

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. I see guys like J.Staal and Kesler in McCarron.

based on his progression in the last year, I think it would be dumb to put a hard ceiling on him. Did anybody expect Lucic to be a 1st line guy when they saw him at 19 and 20?

I think he won't be a guy to drive a line, but he can easily complement high skill linemates, we saw that at the MC. In this tournament he didn't play much with Scherbak or Hudon and a lot of the chances he had, he had to generate them.

I think that Lernout did fine. Miceli was probably our best forward. Hudon is another story has in AHL form, he has to dominate that tournament...but he is surely not there yet.

Hudon was the most impressive guy we had out there, made things happen on almost every shift.

Big Mac will never be a permanent top 6 player, he isnt skilled enough but he will be a hell of third line grinder and should be used in front of the net on the PP where he is barely unmovable and very effective..

It's way to early to put a ceiling like that on him. Not with his tools and the progression he's had the last 12 months.

 

[JC Superstar]

Top 6, bottom 6, sometimes it goes with talent, sometimes chemistry and sometimes role playing: Ferguson was top 3 with Beliveau, Al Secord with Savard and numerous wingers with Lemieux.

If McCarron doesn't become top 6 for talent, he still has options.