Can Crosby Surpass Gretzky With A Superior Finish Than Wayne Had to His Career?

[daver]

Since Crosby fans use the whole PPG argument to prop him up, Jagr has better PPG finishes in the playoffs (year by year) than Crosby did. The difference is Crosby has had far stronger teams than Jagr did during his prime hence why he had the better "Conn Smythe worthy runs". Crosby for what it's worth has 4 goals in 25 Finals games. You tell me, is Crosby really that much better than Jagr is in the playoffs? I think not.

So are wiling then to concede that Crosby has the better regular season resume based on PPG finishes?

 

[livewell68]

So are wiling then to concede that Crosby has the better regular season resume based on PPG finishes?

Actually Crosby doesn't. Do we need to do this dance again?

Crosby's only high PPG finishes came in abbreviated seasons (save for his 2006-07 season), seasons in which looking at his overall career, the trend dictates that he would have fallen off a bit. No way for instance he finishes with 1.61 PPG, or 1.68. Both times he played 50% or less of the games.

Jagr on the other hand had finishes of 1.46, 1.82, 1.51, 1.32, 1.57, 1.52, 1.50 and 1.50 (none of which saw him play less than 48 games (lockout season). Jagr played at a 120 + Pts pace 7 times in his career, while registering 4 such 120 + Pts seasons.

You can use better arguments than the PPG to push the Crosby in this case, Jagr has him beat considerably.

 

[K Fleur]

Ovechkin is a glorified Bure. Jagr is the 5th greatest offensive player in NHL history, not even the same. Ovechkin is under PPG in the playoffs, again I repeat, before returning to the NHL at age 39, Jagr had 181 Pts in 169 playoff games (he was 10th all-time in that regard for points).

Alas, anything to throw dirt on Jagr's career. I can give you any list that ranks Jagr above Crosby, but the one you say is the only legitimate one is the one that has Crosby is at 8#, figures.

This thread was already a bad idea in the first place, but it's starting to reach a point of full blown lunacy.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I read the top 25 list, more people were upset with Jagr being ranked so low, and having Crosby ahead of Jagr, than people were agreeable with the list. So no, it's not a majority as you say that thinks Crosby is better. Also, many posters have Jagr in their top 10.

You can't be a top 10 player ever and never have led your team (not Mario's) your team past the second round. Look at Dan Marino. There's. Reason he is not in the discussion with Brady/Montana. Jordan is considered the goat because he is 6-0 in the finals. Sorry jäger falls short

Crosby 2 smythes 3 cups says it all

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

The top 4 are set in stone. But Crosby by the time he retires should be the concencus 5th best ever. Another hart wouldn't hurt anyone though

 

[livewell68]

You can't be a top 10 player ever and never have led your team (not Mario's) your team past the second round. Look at Dan Marino. There's. Reason he is not in the discussion with Brady/Montana. Jordan is considered the goat because he is 6-0 in the finals. Sorry jäger falls short

Crosby 2 smythes 3 cups says it all

Yet Ovechkin at 15 sticks out like a sore thumb. Hey, that TSN list is the only one that matters though right?

I've asked this before, and most Jagr detractors never reply. What else was Jagr supposed to do, play all 5 positions on the ice and defense? Have you seen any of those Jagr led teams? Take away Jagr, and they are lucky to be NHL level players. Crosby has always had Malkin by his side in their long playoff runs, the very same Malkin that has 3 Conn Smythe worthy runs of his own.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Yet Ovechkin at 15 sticks out like a sore thumb. Hey, that TSN list is the only one that matters though right?

I've asked this before, and most Jagr detractors never reply. What else was Jagr supposed to do, play all 5 positions on the ice and defense? Have you seen any of those Jagr led teams? Take away Jagr, and they are lucky to be NHL level players. Crosby has always had Malkin by his side in their long playoff runs, the very same Malkin that has 3 Conn Smythe worthy runs of his own.

How about not sulk and give it your all?

 

[livewell68]

How about not sulk and give it your all?

Which Jagr did. In the playoffs, Jagr was always a force.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Which Jagr did. In the playoffs, Jagr was always a force.

He was good in the playoffs but not good enough if you want to be a top 10 player in nhl history.

 

[daver]

Actually Crosby doesn't. Do we need to do this dance again?

Crosby's only high PPG finishes came in abbreviated seasons (save for his 2006-07 season), seasons in which looking at his overall career, the trend dictates that he would have fallen off a bit. No way for instance he finishes with 1.61 PPG, or 1.68. Both times he played 50% or less of the games.

Jagr on the other hand had finishes of 1.46, 1.82, 1.51, 1.32, 1.57, 1.52, 1.50 and 1.50 (none of which saw him play less than 48 games (lockout season). Jagr played at a 120 + Pts pace 7 times in his career, while registering 4 such 120 + Pts seasons.

You can use better arguments than the PPG to push the Crosby in this case, Jagr has him beat considerably.

You just said its OK to use PPG finishes as a metric with no regard for the # of games played. So which is it, raw points or PPG finishes?

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[livewell68]

He was good in the playoffs but not good enough if you want to be a top 10 player in nhl history.

Were Howe, Beliveau and Hull any better in the playoffs? Not really, yet they are top 10.

 

[daver]

Were Howe, Beliveau and Hull any better in the playoffs? Not really, yet they are top 10.

More lunacy...

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Were Howe, Beliveau and Hull any better in the playoffs? Not really, yet they are top 10.

Um yes the were. Howe led the playoffs in scoring a record 6 times and had the smythe been around would likely have a couple. Believeau doesn't even need to be explained

 

[bobholly39]

Yet Ovechkin at 15 sticks out like a sore thumb. Hey, that TSN list is the only one that matters though right?

I've asked this before, and most Jagr detractors never reply. What else was Jagr supposed to do, play all 5 positions on the ice and defense? Have you seen any of those Jagr led teams? Take away Jagr, and they are lucky to be NHL level players. Crosby has always had Malkin by his side in their long playoff runs, the very same Malkin that has 3 Conn Smythe worthy runs of his own.

It doesn't matter *why* Jagr doesn't have conn smythe worthy runs. Only that he doesn't.

You are not here asking "what if". All that matters is actual accomplishments and Jagr doesn' have those runs. Malkin has nothing to do with it.

Also - Jagr had Mario Lemieux in many years. So let's be serious...his teams weren't that bad.

Also - please stop trying to discredit lists after the one you posted. It's like the worst ever.

Crosby above Jagr? Sure. Debatable maybe but not that big a strtch even if you prefer jagr.

Brett Hull above Richard and Roy and Beliveau for playoffs...? Let' be serious...

 

[bobholly39]

Were Howe, Beliveau and Hull any better in the playoffs? Not really, yet they are top 10.

Lol...

 

[livewell68]

When posters start attacking others for their opinion, that's when I check out. Continue on with the Crosby lovefest.

 

[blogofmike]

You can't be a top 10 player ever and never have led your team (not Mario's) your team past the second round. Look at Dan Marino. There's. Reason he is not in the discussion with Brady/Montana. Jordan is considered the goat because he is 6-0 in the finals. Sorry jäger falls short

Crosby 2 smythes 3 cups says it all

Does it help that Jagr led the 1992 Pens in even-strength scoring in the playoffs, and helped them survive a series against New York where Mario was MIA courtesy of Adam Graves?

I'd say that the Brady/Montana thing (and championships in general) has more to do with strong supporting casts. Brady generally had a lower bar to clear to win games. The modern NFL QB has an average passer rating around 87. For the earlier part of Brady's career it was around 80. In the mid-1980s, it was around 70. But without adjusting for how easy passing has gotten (which should help Brady):

	Overall Playoffs
QB	W	L
Montana	16	7
Brady	27	10
Marino	8	10
	Games below 80 QB Rating
	W	L
Montana	2	4
Brady	8	5
Marino	1	8
	80-99.9 QB Rating
	W	L
Montana	4	1
Brady	5	4
Marino	3	0
	100+ QB Rating
	W	L
Montana	10	2
Brady	14	1
Marino	4	1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Have a 100+ QB rating in a playoff game? Expect to win. But even when he's played poorly, Brady can expect to win. That's not because of Brady, it's because of team support. Or if you're cynical, ref support

This is largely true in hockey too. The Penguins can succeed in a series where Crosby doesn't produce. They succeeded when Lemieux was out of the lineup. (Championship teams generally can.)

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Does it help that Jagr led the 1992 Pens in even-strength scoring in the playoffs, and helped them survive a series against New York where Mario was MIA courtesy of Adam Graves?

I'd say that the Brady/Montana thing (and championships in general) has more to do with strong supporting casts. Brady generally had a lower bar to clear to win games. The modern NFL QB has an average passer rating around 87. For the earlier part of Brady's career it was around 80. In the mid-1980s, it was around 70. But without adjusting for how easy passing has gotten (which should help Brady):

	Overall Playoffs
QB	W	L
Montana	16	7
Brady	27	10
Marino	8	10
	Games below 80 QB Rating
	W	L
Montana	2	4
Brady	8	5
Marino	1	8
	80-99.9 QB Rating
	W	L
Montana	4	1
Brady	5	4
Marino	3	0
	100+ QB Rating
	W	L
Montana	10	2
Brady	14	1
Marino	4	1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Have a 100+ QB rating in a playoff game? Expect to win. But even when he's played poorly, Brady can expect to win. That's not because of Brady, it's because of team support. Or if you're cynical, ref support

This is largely true in hockey too. The Penguins can succeed in a series where Crosby doesn't produce. They succeeded when Lemieux was out of the lineup. (Championship teams generally can.)

I never said jagr was bad during those cup runs nor that he didn't contribute particularly like you said when Lemieux was hurt. But he still wasn't the captain or even co captain. A top 10 player ever should be able to lead his team at least to the finals

 

[blogofmike]

I never said jagr was bad during those cup runs nor that he didn't contribute particularly like you said when Lemieux was hurt. But he still wasn't the captain or even co captain. A top 10 player ever should be able to lead his team at least to the finals

Perhaps.

I'm of the opinion that if you swapped them, current Crosby wouldn't take the post-Mario Penguins to the Finals, and a late 90s Jagr could win a Cup on the 2016 or 2017 Pens. (I think he'd score more too.)

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Perhaps.

I'm of the opinion that if you swapped them, current Crosby wouldn't take the post-Mario Penguins to the Finals, and a late 90s Jagr could win a Cup on the 2016 or 2017 Pens. (I think he'd score more too.)

Maybe he would score more... But a big reason the pens have won b2b cups is Crosbys strong two play. Something jäger never had.

 

[daver]

Perhaps.

I'm of the opinion that if you swapped them, current Crosby wouldn't take the post-Mario Penguins to the Finals, and a late 90s Jagr could win a Cup on the 2016 or 2017 Pens. (I think he'd score more too.)

While we are playing the hypothetical game, if Crosby doesn't have his injuries, is Jagr vs. Crosby even a worthwhile discussion.

 

[MXD]

- No.
- Why exactly is Jagr part of that discussion?

 

[blogofmike]

Maybe he would score more... But a big reason the pens have won b2b cups is Crosbys strong two play. Something jäger never had.

I think the strong two-way play is overstated. In 2016 Crosby was a -2 on a team full of pluses. Overall he has 46 points in 48 games, and posts one of the weaker plus/minus totals on a team that has easily outscored its opponents: https://www.hockey-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&year_min=2016&year_max=2017&season_start=1&season_end=-1&rookie=N&age_min=0&age_max=99&franch_id=PIT&pos=S&is_playoffs=Y&threshhold=5&order_by=plus_minus

Looking at Jagr without Lemieux, he scored 37 points in 26 games from 98-2000, and was a team best +11 on a team that was about even with its opponents: Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

While we are playing the hypothetical game, if Crosby doesn't have his injuries, is Jagr vs. Crosby even a worthwhile discussion.

It's less about the hypothetical performance if swapped, and more about recognizing that the Penguins win games when Crosby isn't playing great. Not everyone has a Malkin and a Kessel who can pick up the slack. An individual can play well on a poor team and still go nowhere in the playoffs, because winning a championship has more to do with overall team performance.

 

[blood gin]

I still can't believe anybody thinks anybody involved in the current game at the moment can surpass Gretzky. His level of domination against his contemporaries is obscene.

99 is immortal Babe Ruth level. He's even well above Brady and Lebron

 

[daver]

It's less about the hypothetical performance if swapped, and more about recognizing that the Penguins win games when Crosby isn't playing great. Not everyone has a Malkin and a Kessel who can pick up the slack. An individual can play well on a poor team and still go nowhere in the playoffs, because winning a championship has more to do with overall team performance.

The simple fact is it would be inherently unfair to not recognize that Crosby has better playoffs runs than Jagr, just as it would inherently unfair to give Crosby credit for Art Rosses he did not win.

Both were dealt their hands and did what they did with them. Maybe Jagr was unlucky with not having better teams, or maybe he did not have the "it" factor to have more success. IMO, it is certainly more reasonable to give Crosby consideration for being better than his raw point totals would indicate due to unlucky injuries.