Can Crosby Surpass Gretzky With A Superior Finish Than Wayne Had to His Career?

[NewUser293223]

Ronaldo has led the last 5 champions league in goals. Ronaldo is better than messi. Has won golden boots and world player of the year awards in both the English and Spanish leagues. And championships. Who knows what messi would do in another league. Spanish league is a high flying league. Ronaldo> messi right now as Ronaldo has won 4 of the last 5 mvps

Hehe. Even Ronaldo himself knows that Messi is, was, has always been and will forever be better. The only thing Ronaldo is better at is headering.

Even if Ronaldo was more productive (which he is not as Messi has a better GPG and also assist-per-game ratio), productivity doesn't tell the whole story in hockey, let alone a much bigger game like football. One thing you obviously don't take into account is that Ronaldo takes more penalty kicks.

The other is, Messi can beat you in many different ways. You never know what he is going to do. He creates something out of nothing. He can beat five or six players at once. With all due respect to C Ronaldo, compared with Messi, he looks comically human.

The Ballon d'Or voting record pretty much confirms this, as Messi's wins have generally been far more dominant and convincing.

What canucks4evr has completely wrong is that players like Messi or Ronaldo will be or have been a regular occurrence. Over the span of the last ten seasons, Messi has a GPG ratio over 1. Not only is that not normal. It's mutant-like. It's almost immoral. He makes PlayStation plays in real life.

I mean, it's Getafe, but it's still LaLiga, and he was nineteen... (can't be played on here) Ronnie at that age? Mr. Shank-it-wide and fall down.

 

[bobholly39]

I like this thread better when we were talking about Crosby surpassing Wayne Gretzky as the greatest hockey player of all time.

 

[NewUser293223]

I like this thread better when we were talking about Crosby surpassing Wayne Gretzky as the greatest hockey player of all time.

OK. He most likely won't.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

He can not, I am one of the most rapid Penguins fans out there, I live and breath my team. He will not surpass the records Wayne Gretzky set. It was a complete different eras of hockey. Crosby will go down as one of the greatest or the greatest play of his era and will establish himself of one of the best ever post salary cap in years to come. But as how they do in pro Football, they look at different eras and separate those eras when talking about athletes. We need to do that with hockey. It doesn't matter if Crosby won 3 more cups with Penguins. It will always be almost impossible to look at player from such vastly different eras and do an accurate and logical debate/comparison that can be looked at in any way as definitive.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

^ if Crosby wins 3 more cups with 3 more 17 level smythes Wayne can move over

 

[MadLuke]

^ if Crosby wins 3 more cups with 3 more 17 level smythes Wayne can move over

That is "only" 2 more cups (both having been in the final without winning cancelling each other a little bit) and Gretzky has 6 playoff run of 34 point or more, even with this, Gretzky would still have an argument for best playoff legacy and would still be really close for those putting Crosby ahead, letting the giant Hart/Art Ross regular season gap putting Greztky ahead for most I think (if Crosby does not win any other Ross/Hart in is career).

Ahead of Mario career wise (hurt by is only 2 Cups and not much else vs Greztky outside those 2 legendary runs), that I could more see.

 

[Thenameless]

^ if Crosby wins 3 more cups with 3 more 17 level smythes Wayne can move over

I am a fan of Crosby. But even 3 more Cups, with 3 more Smythes wouldn't get him into the Big 4. It would probably make him the clear No. 5 though. Those guys were special talents that separated themselves not only from their peers, but from the best players of other eras. In plain terms, he just isn't as good as Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, Wayne Gretzky, and Mario Lemieux.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I am a fan of Crosby. But even 3 more Cups, with 3 more Smythes wouldn't get him into the Big 4. It would probably make him the clear No. 5 though. Those guys were special talents that separated themselves not only from their peers, but from the best players of other eras. In plain terms, he just isn't as good as Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, Wayne Gretzky, and Mario Lemieux.

Your probably right. But man 6 rings with 5 pmvps has a Jordan feel to it. Oh it wouldn't even be a question of Crosby being the #5 player of all time in that scenario

 

[MadLuke]

I am a fan of Crosby. But even 3 more Cups, with 3 more Smythes wouldn't get him into the Big 4. It would probably make him the clear No. 5 though. Those guys were special talents that separated themselves not only from their peers, but from the best players of other eras. In plain terms, he just isn't as good as Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, Wayne Gretzky, and Mario Lemieux.

True nothing he can do can really change is place in best at playing hockey ranking, sample size is already more than big enough for that, but ranking career, 5 mvp and that elite longevity would start to make an argument over Orr/Lemieux to many, that would probably mean having at least 15 season in the conversation for top-5 best player in the nhl (when not in the top 3) in a row if it would do something like that.

 

[NoMessi]

10 Art Ross trophies and 9 Hart trophies vs 2 Art Ross trophies and 2 Hart trophies. Even "well behind Gretzky" is generous towards Crosby.



Translated from raw points to percentage:

1982: 144%
1983: 158%
1984: 162% (169* %)
1985: 154% (160* %)
1986: 152% (174** %)

*Leaving out Gretzky's teammates.
** Also leaving out Mario Lemieux, a historic outlier himself.

Crosby's was 17 points ahead in 2014. That's 119 % compard to the #2, Getzlaf. He would have had to score 166 134 resp. 151 points instead of 104 points to match for one season what Gretzky did year after year.

That was in a season where all his main competition got injured (Malkin, Stamkos and to lesser extent Tavares and Kane), ofc he win big.

 

[daver]

That was in a season where all his main competition got injured (Malkin, Stamkos and to lesser extent Tavares and Kane), ofc he win big.

Using this same criteria, what % should we put down for Crosby's Art Ross wins in 2010/11 and 2013.

 

[bobholly39]

Using this same criteria, what % should we put down for Crosby's Art Ross wins in 2010/11 and 2013.

negative something, since he didn't win.

 

[daver]

negative something, since he didn't win.

And Malkin, Stamkos, Tavares and Kane did not play full seasons in 13/14. Just trying to keep things fair.

 

[bobholly39]

And Malkin, Stamkos, Tavares and Kane did not play full seasons in 13/14. Just trying to keep things fair.

No you're not.

2014 isn't Crosby's best season. You can' just look at his margin of victory over 2nd place. It's true that Malkin and Stamkos were injured and if they hadn't been they likely pass Getzlaf. You have to be able to put domination in a single season in perspective. Looking at margin of victory is extremely lazy as a means of analysis.

2013 Crosby > 2014 Crosby

 

[bobholly39]

Your probably right. But man 6 rings with 5 pmvps has a Jordan feel to it. Oh it wouldn't even be a question of Crosby being the #5 player of all time in that scenario

Give Crosby enough smythes and I agree he's alone at #5.

Big 5/4 would take a LOT. As someone else said - Crosby is simply nowhere as good as those guys. So if his level of play is lacking he needs to get enough accolades to make it make sense and that's likely a lot.

 

[NoMessi]

Using this same criteria, what % should we put down for Crosby's Art Ross wins in 2010/11 and 2013.

How many % of reality do you see outside your love for Crosby?

0%.

Its gotten to the point that im not really sure that youve ever seen him play and only have a very selective way of looking at stats.

 

[daver]

How many % of reality do you see outside your love for Crosby?

0%.

Its gotten to the point that im not really sure that youve ever seen him play and only have a very selective way of looking at stats.

So walk me through your point about about Malkin, Stamkos, Tavares and Kane. You are assuming that if they played the whole season in 13/14 that Crosby doesn't win by 20%, correct?

How is that any different than making the same assumption about Crosby playing full seasons?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Give Crosby enough smythes and I agree he's alone at #5.

Big 5/4 would take a LOT. As someone else said - Crosby is simply nowhere as good as those guys. So if his level of play is lacking he needs to get enough accolades to make it make sense and that's likely a lot.

Crosby is gunning for his 9th top 3 scoring finish this season. Let's say he finishes with 13 top 3 finishes. In this era and 5 symthes I think Howe is surpassed. This is a much deeper league now.

 

[bobholly39]

Crosby is gunning for his 9th top 3 scoring finish this season. Let's say he finishes with 13 top 3 finishes. In this era and 5 symthes I think Howe is surpassed. This is a much deeper league now.

To surpass Howe he's going to need more harts and rosses. Top 3 finishes won't cut it.

Give him enough smythes that he is clearly established as the best playoff performer of all time? Sure - maybe that can happen. Wouldn't a Crosby with enough smythe and clearly the best playoff performer of all time deserve to be ranked alongside/above Lemieux and Howe? I think so.

I'm still not sure 5 smythe alone top gretzky as best playoff performer. I mean - it probably does. But it's close.

To put it simply - it's a very very steep hill to climb and odds are Crosby gets nowhere near it.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

To surpass Howe he's going to need more harts and rosses. Top 3 finishes won't cut it.

Give him enough smythes that he is clearly established as the best playoff performer of all time? Sure - maybe that can happen. Wouldn't a Crosby with enough smythe and clearly the best playoff performer of all time deserve to be ranked alongside/above Lemieux and Howe? I think so.

I'm still not sure 5 smythe alone top gretzky as best playoff performer. I mean - it probably does. But it's close.

To put it simply - it's a very very steep hill to climb and odds are Crosby gets nowhere near it.

The chance of Crosby passing any of the big four is slim to none yes. But if it wasn't for his injuries Crosby would have at least 4 harts and 4 art Ross trophies and this would be very interesting. But then again Orr and Lemieux dealt with worse and had superior careers.

Crosby is starting to rival howes consistency though....

 

[bobholly39]

In terms of consistency of prime for a forward Crosby is absolutely near the all time top. Gretzky and Howe are ahead of him as of today but that might be it. Anyone else?

He still has a very weak peak in comparison though.

 

[livewell68]

In terms of consistency of prime for a forward Crosby is absolutely near the all time top. Gretzky and Howe are ahead of him as of today but that might be it. Anyone else?

He still has a very weak peak in comparison though.

Jagr had 9 top 5 finishes in a tougher pool of players, had 7 top 2 finishes, and a total of 11 top 10 finishes. Sakic also has 11 top 10 finishes. Those are just from the more recent players. You also have Bossy, Lafleur, Dionne, Statsny who were all as good for longer than Crosby.

Lemieux himself has 9 top 4 finishes including 8 top 2 finishes.

 

[bobholly39]

Jagr had 9 top 5 finishes in a tougher pool of players, had 7 top 2 finishes, and a total of 11 top 10 finishes. Sakic also has 11 top 10 finishes. Those are just from the more recent players. You also have Bossy, Lafleur, Dionne, Statsny who were all as good for longer than Crosby.

Sakic is a lower tier though. Top 10 finishes aren't top 3 or top 5. I'd guess he has a lot less of those.

Jagr had some significant off years in the middle of his prime. It also took him longer to reach the top then Crosby. I think in terms of consistency Crosby is easily ahead as of now due to those 2 factors. But yes Jagr is also strong in that regard.

 

[livewell68]

Sakic is a lower tier though. Top 10 finishes aren't top 3 or top 5. I'd guess he has a lot less of those.

Jagr had some significant off years in the middle of his prime. It also took him longer to reach the top then Crosby. I think in terms of consistency Crosby is easily ahead as of now due to those 2 factors. But yes Jagr is also strong in that regard.

Peaking early and peaking later really has nothing to do with this. Jagr was consistently strong. How many All-Team selections does Crosby have at center? Jagr was a 1st Team at RW 7 times, and once a 2nd Team.

Jagr had 8 total top 5 finishes in Hart Voting, 6 times a finalist. He was also 7th as a 43 year old in Florida.

Jagr's peak is more impressive than Crosby's. You don't win 5 Art Ross trophies in 7 years and not get that win.

Btw those off years you talk about, he only had 2 such years. In his first season with the Capitals he still finished 5th in league scoring despite missing 13 games. His 79 pts in 69 games would have seen him score 94 pts in 82 games, 2 off Iginla's lead. I mean Crosby gets a lot of conjectures and what if's.

What if Malkin wins the Art Ross and Hart and Conn Smythe this season?

 

[livewell68]

Sorry for bringing up Jagr, this a Crosby thread. Carry on folks.