Camp Thread 3 | Sundqvist to Sweden, Kapanen (probably) to Finland, Harrington to WBS

[Ogrezilla]

Yes, he does. He's saying that he likes what Sutter has contributed since the end of last year and playing Malkin as his winger is better than skating him with the fourth line.

If Sutter and Geno play together for any length of time, Sutter needs to be the one to move to wing. I'm fine with it while Geno gets into the system and back into shape. After that, he's a center. The thing is, they both really need to play center to be at their best.

 

[mpp9]

Kunitz is no longer good along the boards. I'd prefer to add legit talent, but beggars can't be choosers.

I think billy said it, but when that guy no longer can produce, I don't think he's going to be a very effective bottom six player. When he starts declining, it'll be rapid.

I think he can be good enough along the boards with PH on the other wing, which is why I want that trio tried together while we have the chance.

Sucks for Geno, but it's nothing new for him. It's much better than defaulting to KCD and having Geno play with other meh forwards while at center.

 

[KIRK]

If Sutter and Geno play together for any length of time, Sutter needs to be the one to move to wing. I'm fine with it while Geno gets into the system and back into shape. After that, he's a center. The thing is, they both really need to play center to be at their best.

Sure. Then WHY mention Beau's injury as part of the explanation? Johnston did that in the context of saying Malkin at wing is 'not necessarily permanent'.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Not to pick nits, here... but Fitz actually was the one that said that about Adams ("If you can take his job..."). Agnew said something to the effect that he'd be looked at as a contributor on the PK, this year.

Ah, good catch. At any rate, everything suggests he's going to be looked at as a regular role player, at least to start the year. That's wrong.

I liked Kulemin... as a more reasonably priced option. There is no guarantee that he gets back to being a productive player, even with Malkin centering (maybe?!?) him. And we are chock full of third liners. I'm not too worried about "missing out" on that deal.

Hey, I'd love if Bobby Ryan forced a trade here instead. But we're not in a position to get too picky. He's a big, strong, defensively responsible guy who had established scoring chemistry with Geno, and we passed. Now he's playing on the wing with two garbage scorers.

Most of the rest is tough to argue, at the moment. Malkin lining up at wing with Sutter and Dupuis is particularly abhorrent. Even if and when he is moved back to center... the implications that he'll have Dupuis attached to him for even parts of the year are aggravating. And Sutter isn't exactly a playmaker... he's a shooter. If they are planning for this to be a longer term thing... it's badly thought out.

Agreed.

 

[KIRK]

I think billy said it, but when that guy no longer can produce, I don't think he's going to be a very effective bottom six player. When he starts declining, it'll be rapid.

I think he can be good enough along the boards with PH on the other wing, which is why I want that trio tried together while we have the chance.

Sucks for Geno, but it's nothing new for him. It's much better than defaulting to KCD and having Geno play with other meh forwards while at center.

If you defaulted to KCD, then Geno is centering Hornqvist.

What we're saying, then, is so that Sid can get away from Dupuis, it means Geno has to play on Sutter's wing.

This isn't Staalkin. This isn't Tangradi-Comrie-Malkin. BUT, it may be closer to the latter than the former.

 

[KIRK]

Not to pick nits, here... but Fitz actually was the one that said that about Adams ("If you can take his job..."). Agnew said something to the effect that he'd be looked at as a contributor on the PK, this year.

I liked Kulemin... as a more reasonably priced option. There is no guarantee that he gets back to being a productive player, even with Malkin centering (maybe?!?) him. And we are chock full of third liners. I'm not too worried about "missing out" on that deal.

Most of the rest is tough to argue, at the moment. Malkin lining up at wing with Sutter and Dupuis is particularly abhorrent. Even if and when he is moved back to center... the implications that he'll have Dupuis attached to him for even parts of the year are aggravating. And Sutter isn't exactly a playmaker... he's a shooter. If they are planning for this to be a longer term thing... it's badly thought out.

Do NOT be surprised if that's what we see until Beau returns. After all, Johnston mentioned as part of his explanation for Malkin on Sutter's wing Beau being hurt.

 

[mpp9]

You COULD have lined up Malkin at center by keeping ONE of Sundqvist or Kapanen.

I really think Sundqvist wanted to go back to Sweden if he wasn't getting significant minutes here. And the coaching staff can't promise that.

Kapanen was always a toss up. There's a danger in keeping him in the league and getting hurt. And he wasn't lighting it up or anything in preseason. I doubt he helps Geno out more than Sutter or Dupuis can for now.

 

[Ogrezilla]

That isn't new, man. Bennett was on the opening night roster last year and Despres was all but assured a spot this year no matter what with Nisky, Orpik, and Engo leaving.

What youth do we have available that is such a travasty to not have in the line-up? Harrington is the worst, but Scuderi's contract may very well be immovable. At least this early while other teams are healthy and looking to give their own youth a chance. We have no choice but to try to play him and get his value out of the negative.

Adams doesn't have to be there, but he is. Shero and Bylsma have no control over this line-up.

Who wants to take him? Would we rather have a kid sitting in the press box as our 13th forward? Is it worth giving away assets to sit Megna in the press box instead of Adams?

When he plays consistently over players who deserve to be in, then we'll talk. We haven't even started the season yet.

And we don't need defensemen, while we're so desperate for wingers that Dupuis is a virtual lock for scoring line duty yet again. Adding Ehrhoff was like adding another bloody natural scoring line center.

Ehrhoff over Kulemin is like adding Paul Stastny instead of Kulemin. But for 4 million dollars. Sure, its the wrong position, but one guy is head and shoulders better than the other.

Oh, and if we wanted to sign Kulemin, we would have had to sign his buddy Grabovski too. Isn't he a 5 Mil a year skilled center?

Ya, Kulemin wasn't an option

Kunitz is no longer good along the boards. I'd prefer to add legit talent, but beggars can't be choosers.

Kunitz is still good along the boards. He's not as good as he used to be, but he's still good at it.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Sure. Then WHY mention Beau's injury as part of the explanation? Johnston did that in the context of saying Malkin at wing is 'not necessarily permanent'.

Because Sutter is the 2nd best center we have who knows the new system? I don't know. I know that Malkin will be playing center by this time next month. There is no doubt in my mind. None.

 

[KIRK]

So, still ****ing around with 4 forwards on the PP?

Change?

I'm going to pretend that I didn't wake up to see this either . . .

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Do NOT be surprised if that's what we see until Beau returns. After all, Johnston mentioned as part of his explanation for Malkin on Sutter's wing Beau being hurt.

Well, if that comes to pass then it's ridiculous and asinine. And I'll already be damn near Disco-levels of annoyance. Unless Malkin is somehow being a deliberate problem (which I have a tough time believing) then it's completely baffling as to why they would punish him in such a way. Because that's what it is -- punishment.

Unfortunately the more I think about it, the more the way you explain it makes "sense."

I would rather see Malkin centering Spaling and Dupuis then have him playing flippin' right wing with Sutter as his pivot. Nevermind who is on the other side -- doesn't matter.

 

[mpp9]

If you defaulted to KCD, then Geno is centering Hornqvist.

What we're saying, then, is so that Sid can get away from Dupuis, it means Geno has to play on Sutter's wing.

This isn't Staalkin. This isn't Tangradi-Comrie-Malkin. BUT, it may be closer to the latter than the former.

I think you'll find this will set things up nicely for what you want to happen in a month or so. Specifically, when Beau returns and Martin possibly gets dangled.

If Hornqvist does for Sid and Kunitz what I think he will, that line will be set. One problem solved.

I know posters around here aren't big fans of Sutter, but I think he'll be more than fine in a 2C role. He's carrying over the momentum he had this spring. Keep it going for now while we need it. It's obvious the coaching staff will be playing him in a more significant role this year.

When we're healthy and a trade can be made, focus on Malkin's line and what he needs. Bump Sutter down with some combination of Dupuis, Bennett and Downie. And we'll hopefully have had some luck with health and Spaling-Goc-Comeau will be a money line for us.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I think billy said it, but when that guy no longer can produce, I don't think he's going to be a very effective bottom six player. When he starts declining, it'll be rapid.

I think he can be good enough along the boards with PH on the other wing, which is why I want that trio tried together while we have the chance.

Sucks for Geno, but it's nothing new for him. It's much better than defaulting to KCD and having Geno play with other meh forwards while at center.

The whole situation of having him play out of position with a couple guys who shouldn't ever see scoring line time sucks.

Leave Kulemin out of it.

Mike Jonhston gave two explanations for why Malkin is playing wing:

Explanation One: He's a little out of shape, only had a few practices, will have an easier time grasping the system from the wing.

Why I Call BS: From all accounts the last two practices, he looks anything but out of shape. People insist also that he was 'around'. Game action then? Sid got one preseason game, so I don't really see that being the issue.

That said, I would have been inclined to give this staff the benefit of the doubt IF the second explanation never were made:

Explanation Two: Beau Bennett got hurt, and there's a need on Sutter's wing.

I don't call BS on this one. This one is WHY Malkin is playing wing. Mike Johnston likes a Spaling-Goc-Comeau line. I suspect that he'd prefer not to have to answer questions about playing Dupuis with Sid and Kunitz. And, you can't play Adams on Sutter's (or Malkin's) wing. Ergo, Malkin to Sutter's wing, because Sutter is worse at wing than Malkin . . . so of course you move the (at worst) second best center in the game to wing.

I'll watch how it plays out, but, AT FIRST BLUSH, the move AND the explanation smacks of Bylsma, where the first part explanation could make sense but seems fishy and then there's a second part that just stinks to high heaven.

On it's own, I might not be as worried. BUT, add in the apparent 'if you take Adams' job, then we'll give it to you' really meant 'we'll give it to you unless you take it' and Scuderi's role, and there are some discouraging signs all around.

I'm looking at those signs like I was at the warning signs in early 2010. I'm still giving the benefit of the doubt, but I was more optimistic a month ago.

EDIT: You COULD have lined up Malkin at center by keeping ONE of Sundqvist or Kapanen.

For sure. The opportunity to do things differently has been there, but the org opted for more of the same. If the old regime had this off-season and were icing this roster, with these special teams set-ups, they'd have been torn to shreds.

Trade Neal for Hornqvist, then use Kunitz in front of the net instead.
Sign a good PPQB instead of Kulemin, then use that PPQB on the 2nd unit.
Keep and play Scuderi.
Keep and play Adams.
Move Malkin to wing and play him with Dupuis and Sutter.

 

[KIRK]

Because Sutter is the 2nd best center we have who knows the new system? I don't know. I know that Malkin will be playing center by this time next month. There is no doubt in my mind. None.

Didn't I catch multiple people saying Malkin has been around going over video? By my count, Sid had like eight or so more practices and one more preseason game with the system. Yet, Malkin needs a month of actual games and practices to develop the same level of system understanding as Sid has right now?

You see, what you just wrote is why I think there's something to this 'well, Bennett's out and Sutter needs a wing' talk that Johnston inserted into his more comprehensive (read, Bylsma like) explanation for why Malkin is on the wing.

I know you're trying to give the benefit of the doubt, but, at some point, there has to be a limit. When the explanation starts stinking to high heaven, that's probably the point.

I would've and did call out Bylsma for this type of horse**** even back when I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. I'm not going to be inconsistent because I like Johnston as a person and his system better.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I don't think it will take a month for him to move back to center. But I thought I'd go safe with my guarantee.

 

[mpp9]

I think Sutter at center is our 5th best forward on the team currently. Malkin at wing is still our 2nd best forward by a mile. That's the rationale IMO.

Malkin won't be ruined by playing at wing for a few weeks if that's how it goes.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

The whole situation of having him play out of position with a couple guys who shouldn't ever see scoring line time sucks.



For sure. The opportunity to do things differently has been there, but the org opted for more of the same. If the old regime had this off-season and were icing this roster, with these special teams set-ups, they'd have been torn to shreds.

Trade Neal for Hornqvist, then use Kunitz in front of the net instead.
Sign a good PPQB instead of Kulemin, then use that PPQB on the 2nd unit.
Keep and play Scuderi.
Keep and play Adams.
Move Malkin to wing and play him with Dupuis and Sutter.

You're starting to sound like Rossi. You gave Shero and DB every possible benefit of the doubt for years, and we haven't even played a game yet and you're outraged? Do you really think any young player really earned a spot on this team, and that said position would be the best thing for their development? The only situation like that is Harrington, and we can't play him, because of the Scuds contract, which is 100% Ray's fault.

And do you really think there's any way to get rid of Scuds and Adams right now? Those are both 100% on Ray and DB. As is the Dupuis contract.

At the end of the day, we do not have 6 top 6 forwards. So I agree with putting the best talent we have together on those top lines, and rounding it with better bottom 6 depth than last year until we're healthy.

We're going to see some dynamic changing of lines during the course of the early part of this season, and that's going to really tick everyone off who wants a reason to complain.

 

[KIRK]

So what the * is up with the last spot in our top 6? Dupuis said he's not with Crosby anymore. At least for now it sounds like Kunitz - Crosby - Hornqvist with Malkin with Sutter and Dupuis. When Malkin drops back to center, we are still missing someone:

Kuntiz - Crosby - XXX/Dupuis
Dupuis/XXX - Malkin - Hornqvist

Anyway you place Hornqvist and Dupuis, we are still a guy short.

See, how hard would this be . . .

Kunitz-Sid-Downie
Dupuis-Geno-Hornqvist

BUT . . .

Johnston likes Spaling-Goc-Comeau. What that means is that Sutter will play with Adams and Ebbett if you play Geno at center.

You can't have that. You can't break up Spaling-Goc-Comeau. Better to move Geno to wing playing with Sutter and Dupuis.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

What youth do we have available that is such a travasty to not have in the line-up? Harrington is the worst, but Scuderi's contract may very well be immovable. At least this early while other teams are healthy and looking to give their own youth a chance. We have no choice but to try to play him and get his value out of the negative.

Other than Harrington, Sundqvist is the obvious one. But any number of them should be in over Adams. The guy simply shouldn't see NHL ice again.

Who wants to take him? Would we rather have a kid sitting in the press box as our 13th forward? Is it worth giving away assets to sit Megna in the press box instead of Adams?

When he plays consistently over players who deserve to be in, then we'll talk. We haven't even started the season yet.

You really think he's going to be in the press box tomorrow night, eh? I admire your optimism.

Ehrhoff over Kulemin is like adding Paul Stastny instead of Kulemin. But for 4 million dollars. Sure, its the wrong position, but one guy is head and shoulders better than the other.

Oh, and if we wanted to sign Kulemin, we would have had to sign his buddy Grabovski too. Isn't he a 5 Mil a year skilled center?

Ya, Kulemin wasn't an option

No, we wouldn't have. We had his buddy Malkin (why do people gloss over/forget this?). What we didn't offer was the same money.

Kunitz is still good along the boards. He's not as good as he used to be, but he's still good at it.

We're gonna have to disagree there. He's not a corner man in any sense these days.

Do NOT be surprised if that's what we see until Beau returns. After all, Johnston mentioned as part of his explanation for Malkin on Sutter's wing Beau being hurt.

Why are we putting the 2nd best forward in the league out of position to accommodate our 3rd line center?

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think Sutter at center is our 5th best forward on the team currently. Malkin at wing is still our 2nd best forward by a mile. That's the rationale IMO.

Malkin won't be ruined by playing at wing for a few weeks if that's how it goes.

That sounds good at first, but its still a bad reason to do it.

Lets say Malkin at wing is 90% of Malkin at center. He's still our 2nd best player. Great. But the loss of 10% of Malkin's ability is more substantial than the downgrade from Sutter to our next best forward. Even just moving Sutter to wing makes more sense than moving Malkin to wing.

The only good reason to move Malkin to wing is to ease him back in while he learns the system. It cannot be permanent in any form or its simply a mistake.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Stacking the top 2 lines to try and bank some points before Bennett gets back isn't a horrible idea.

Let's rejoice that Glass and Orpik aren't here anymore and attempt to enjoy this season. Atleast until after some games are played.

 

[Shrimper]

Having a job now is going to make watching the games a lot harder. I'll almost certainly watch the 1st period at least. Looking forward to the season though, have an underlying optimism about this season compared to the previous ones under Bylsma.

 

[KIRK]

I'm not going to disagree with most of this, but the fact still remains that little has really changed. Adams could have been exposed to waivers and it would have been as simple as a paper transaction. It's not like he has to be sent down. Then we have the coaches talking him up as some important PK guy. So there is legit worry there.

I think if Adams is kept out of the lineup, then that will be one of the first steps to making people feel better. When Bort comes back, does he sit or even Despres for Scuds? That's another chance to see if the new regime is going to let the young guys play. Will JR be satisfied with Dupuis in the to six or will he make a move to get a legit top six guy?

Until these questions are answered, I don't see why this org gets the benefit of the doubt from most Pens fans. I'm willing to be patient, but the Sundqvist move pisses me off. I'd be ok with Sundqvist going back, but he earned a spot and now he is burning up a year on his ELC and won't even be helping WBS.

Jiggy, I was giving the benefit of the doubt, but, you're right, little has changed.

IF it had, then Sundqvist would be here. IF it had, then Geno wouldn't be at wing. IF it had, then neither Scuderi nor Adams wouldn't be playing opening night. IF it had, then I wouldn't be reading about a 4 forward PP instead of Kunitz on the second unit.

The GM has changed. The coach has changed. The system looks better.

BUT, for anyone saying, in effect, that all of this change has amounted to rearranging the deck chairs on Titanic, I'm more inclined to share your opinion now than I was a month ago.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Other than Harrington, Sundqvist is the obvious one. But any number of them should be in over Adams. The guy simply shouldn't see NHL ice again.

What about NHL nachos in the press box?

You really think he's going to be in the press box tomorrow night, eh? I admire your optimism.

Not tomorrow, no. But when we have a healthy team with potentially a trade made, yes. Like I said, I could easily turn on this whole point if Adams keeps getting ice time.

No, we wouldn't have. We had his buddy Malkin (why do people gloss over/forget this?). What we didn't offer was the same money.

Every single report on Kulemin that came out said he was going to go to the same team as Grabovski. And he's still a way worse hockey player than Ehrhoff.

We're gonna have to disagree there. He's not a corner man in any sense these days.

okay.

 

[KIRK]

Other than Harrington, Sundqvist is the obvious one. But any number of them should be in over Adams. The guy simply shouldn't see NHL ice again.



You really think he's going to be in the press box tomorrow night, eh? I admire your optimism.



No, we wouldn't have. We had his buddy Malkin (why do people gloss over/forget this?). What we didn't offer was the same money.



We're gonna have to disagree there. He's not a corner man in any sense these days.



Why are we putting the 2nd best forward in the league out of position to accommodate our 3rd line center?

Because the more things change, the more they stay the same?