Cam Neely

[RabbinsDuck]

Maybe, but his level of superiority in the regular season makes up for it.

How so? Lindros has a Hart and was tied for most points one year.
More PPG in lower scoring years and not that far off in goal scoring.

I think it is a hard sell to say Neely was better.

 

[Dark Shadows]

How so? Lindros has a Hart and was tied for most points one year.
More PPG in lower scoring years and not that far off in goal scoring.

I think it is a hard sell to say Neely was better.

He was not saying Neely was better(in that post). He was saying Lindros' regular season dominance makes up for Neely's playoff edge.

Also, you may want to look at Neely's goals per game, not his Points per game in the playoffs compared to Lindros.

But overall Lindros takes it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

and there will be no debate when Forsberg goes in

http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=1742

nor should there be....

Forsberg is a first ballot lock, Neely or no Neely. (unless its the most competitive group of all time, then he might have to wait one year, he's obviously behind guys like Sakic and Jagr and there is a limit of 4 per year)

 

[RabbinsDuck]

He was not saying Neely was better(in that post). He was saying Lindros' regular season dominance makes up for Neely's playoff edge.

Also, you may want to look at Neely's goals per game, not his Points per game in the playoffs compared to Lindros.

But overall Lindros takes it.

Fair enough - I just have found people who defend Neely in the Hall of Fame start to get uncomfortable when it comes to Lindros and the Hall of Fame.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Lindros has 57 points in 53 playoff games topping out at 26 points in 19 games one season.
Neely has 89 points in 93 playoff games topping out with 28 points in 21 games.

Lindros also did it in much lower scoring years.

I just hope Neely is an exception to the rule (based on all those intangibles), and that he has not indeed lowered the bar.

Neely has a HUGE edge in playoff goals. Also, Lindros came up small when he played guys who could handle him... Neely continued scoring even when his team lost.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

nor should there be....

Forsberg is a first ballot lock, Neely or no Neely. (unless its the most competitive group of all time, then he might have to wait one year)

I agree - more comparable to Bure and Selanne, not Forsberg.

 

[Dark Shadows]

two quick things

1) Playoff performances? How many cups did he win? close does not count

Team Trophy.

Its not his fault he played on a team that was outclassed in the finals by the Dynasty Oilers twice.

In his defense, Neely and Bourque carried those Bruins teams in the finals, despite the rest of the team disappearing.

In the finals vs Edmonton in 10 games(Including the canceled blackout game since it was all clumped into one stat)

Bourque had 3 goals and 8 points in 10 games.
Neely had 2 goals and 7 points in 10 games.
Janney had 2 assists and 2 points in 10 games.
Burridge had 1 goal and 4 points in 10 games.
Linsemen had 2 goals and 4 points in 5 games
Joyce has 1 goal 2 points in 5 games.
B. Sweeney had 3 points in 10 games
Wesley had 4 points in 10 games.
Kasper had 2 points in 5 games.
Kluzak had 1 points in 5 games.
Crowder had 1 points in 5 games.
Middleton had 4 points in 15 finals games, and the data is not available to tell which points came from the 76-77 finals, the 77-78 finals or the 87-88 finals. He is the only one I had that problem with

When I posted these stats in another thread, I was asked why I was giving the stats of 3rd liners and bottom pairing defensemen instead of the top liners, when I had to explain that these were the Bruins top playoff scorers

2) Neely http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=3930

versus Lindros http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=3158

based upon most of the arguement put up by the pro-neely faction--Lindros is in the hall of fame

and there will be no debate when Forsberg goes in

http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=1742

I won't argue this portion. Lindros deserves to be in the Hall as far as I am concerned. When he was healthy, he was one of the most dominating players you would ever see.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It's slightly OT, but I like the idea of Bure as a HOFer more than Lindros (though they both likely deserve it). Yet I think Lindros was a better overall player. Why is this?

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Neely has a HUGE edge in playoff goals. Also, Lindros came up small when he played guys who could handle him... Neely continued scoring even when his team lost.

.61 GPG vs. .45 is significant but a bit closer when scoring eras are factored in.
Regular season is even closer.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

It's slightly OT, but I like the idea of Bure as a HOFer more than Lindros (though they both likely deserve it). Yet I think Lindros was a better overall player. Why is this?

I'm in the same boat - I just don't really like Lindros all that much.
I also think the Crosby phenomena is at work a little bit as well - we like seeing the super-hyped "next ones" fail.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm in the same boat - I just don't really like Lindros all that much.
I think the Crosby phenomena is at work a little bit as well - we like seeing the "next ones" fail.

Yeah, I don't know if it's personal bias or what, but I think part of it is how Lindros's ego was bigger than his play.

I think his inability or unwillingness to change the way he played 1) is why he couldn't adjust to Stevens or Lidstrom in the playoffs - they owned him in 95 and 97 respectively; and 2) why he was always injured and finally got his clock cleaned.

I think I might just be biased against stupid and/or arrogant players.

 

[lextune]

Fair enough - I just have found people who defend Neely in the Hall of Fame start to get uncomfortable when it comes to Lindros and the Hall of Fame.

Not me. Reread what I said.

I was saying it is a demonstrable fact that Lindros was the superior player.

As for the Hall, I think that if they left out Lindros they might as well close the place. He should be a lock.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

two quick things

1) Playoff performances? How many cups did he win? close does not count

2) Neely http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=3930

versus Lindros http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=3158

based upon most of the arguement put up by the pro-neely faction--Lindros is in the hall of fame

and there will be no debate when Forsberg goes in

http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=1742

Based on stats Neely would not get in I agree.

However, the Hall of Fame is for the best players not the best numbers.

And yes I would agree with Lindros making it.

 

[nik jr]

Neely has a HUGE edge in playoff goals. Also, Lindros came up small when he played guys who could handle him... Neely continued scoring even when his team lost.

tikkanen shut down neely in the '88 and '90 finals.


i think neely scored 1 or 2 goals in the 9 and 1/2 games (game 4 was cancelled halfway through, b/c of a blackout).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

tikkanen shut down neely in the '88 and '90 finals.


i think neely scored 1 or 2 goals in the 9 and 1/2 games (game 4 was cancelled halfway through, b/c of a blackout).

Good point. Claude Lemieux basically shut Neely down in the first round of 1995 too. Perhaps Neely's weakness was being shadowed by a particularly obnoxious player?

 

[lextune]

It was two goals.
Although Ranford committed absolutely robbery a few times in '90 as well.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Good point. Claude Lemieux basically shut Neely down in the first round of 1995 too. Perhaps Neely's weakness was being shadowed by a particularly obnoxious player?

Not in 95.

Neely had MCL surgery at the end of the 94 season, and he was visibly slowed even more than his leg already was slowing him.

Then, in April 95 right before the playoffs, his hip joint injury flared on top of it all, making movement excruciating. He forced himself back onto the ice after sitting out a few games, but this was around the time it was clear he was not going to ever recover from the combination knee/Thing issues that arose from the Samuelsson hit.

As for Tikkanen shutting him down..........It was not just Tikkanen. The oilers were routinely double teaming Neely because he was the only forward worth a damn. Neely had nearly double the amount of points the next Bruins forward had in those two finals(2 goals, 5 Assists). The only person who outscored him was Ray Bourque

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

It's slightly OT, but I like the idea of Bure as a HOFer more than Lindros (though they both likely deserve it). Yet I think Lindros was a better overall player. Why is this?

i tend to agree with what a lot of people are saying: lindros was so good in his prime that he deserves to be in the HHOF on the basis of it. on the other hand, i find it very hard not to penalize lindros for his short career because he voluntarily sat out two years. that's not something you can say about neely or forsberg, who you could barely keep off the ice when their bodies fell apart. if lindros had played those two years, he almost certainly would have 400 goals, 600 assists, and 1,000 points, which, when combined with his dominance and hart trophy, would place his HHOF candidacy beyond any reasonable doubt.

now, why penalize lindros and not bure? bure sat out a year too, but i tend to believe that bure had his reasons (type "wetcoaster," "quinn," and "bure" into the search engine). did lindros? arguably his second holdout was justified, but i'm not so sure. bobby clarke has to carry some of the blame for that one, but so does lindros. lindros' first holdout, though, was completely indefensible. i know we try to be objective when ranking players, but i think there are times when our grudges against certain players are justified, and i think players can tarnish their legacies, even according to so-called "objective" criteria.

 

[Jumptheshark]

anyone who says yes to Neely in has to say yes to both Lindros and Forsberg

 

[Dark Shadows]

anyone who says yes to Neely in has to say yes to both Lindros and Forsberg

Why are we even mentioning Forsberg? Forsberg is a lock no matter which way anyone slices it. He does not need comparisons to anyone already in the hall because he is a no question, 1st ballot pick.

Lindros is very similar to Neely and yes, I say a HHOFer

 

[MXD]

Why are we even mentioning Forsberg? Forsberg is a lock no matter which way anyone slices it. He does not need comparisons to anyone already in the hall because he is a no question, 1st ballot pick.

Lindros is very similar to Neely and yes, I say a HHOFer

Lindros's biggest positive contribution to the game is pissing off Bobby Clarke, so he might get some problems getting in because of that.

 

[mco543]

Bobby Clarke has said that Eric Lindros is a HOFer.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/story/2007/11/08/nhl-clarke-lindros.html

 

[MXD]

Bobby Clarke has said that Eric Lindros is a HOFer.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/story/2007/11/08/nhl-clarke-lindros.html

Since I considered that pissing off Bobby Clarke was a positive accomplishment, you can probably guess what I think of his opinion.

He might get in, but Lindros sucks as far as non-ice criteria are concerned.

 

[lextune]

Why are we even mentioning Forsberg? Forsberg is a lock no matter which way anyone slices it. He does not need comparisons to anyone already in the hall because he is a no question, 1st ballot pick.

Lindros is very similar to Neely and yes, I say a HHOFer

^This.