Calgary Flames to follow Dallas Stars model

[Frozen Failure]

The Dallas Stars model is definitely 'be bad enough at least one year and get a guaranteed top 5', 'hit multiple top 5 talents outside of the top 5' and 'trade scraps for top 5 talents when they get pushed out from their teams'. And not have income tax. And have HEB.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Which 7 of

Hall, Ekblad, MAF, Nash, Kovalchuk, Hischier, Dahlin, Bedard, Hughes, Tavares are you defining as "good support players" lmao.

Bedard, Tavares, and Dahlin were/will be elite.

Kovalchuk, Nash, Hirshier, and Hall couldn't drag their basement dwelling teams out of the basement. Hall did it once and won a Hart for it. Kovalchuk is up for debate.

 

[dgibb10]

Name the players that can't carry a franchise from basement to playoffs.

Bamo. Those are the ones who are not elite.

You claimed 2 elite players is necessary to get a team into the playoffs.

By that definition we've got Hall and Nico into the elite category right away considering they dragged an absolutely atrocious roster to the playoffs by themselves (with nico as a 19 year old).

Your definition of elite player seems to be "consistent hart finalist" which is utterly ridiculous

 

[Kimota]

That's the most genius shit I've ever heard.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

You claimed 2 elite players is necessary to get a team into the playoffs.

By that definition we've got Hall and Nico into the elite category right away considering they dragged an absolutely atrocious roster to the playoffs by themselves (with nico as a 19 year old).

Your definition of elite player seems to be "consistent hart finalist" which is utterly ridiculous

yes.

Players in the running for hardware are elite. Hall was elite for 1 season, and never came close after that.


You literally need a few elite players to contend for the cup.

 

[Chairman Maouth]

Conroy's model takes a back seat to the Vegas-Seattle model of being born directly into affluence.

 

[dgibb10]

Bedard, Tavares, and Dahlin were/will be elite.

Kovalchuk, Nash, Hirshier, and Hall couldn't drag their basement dwelling teams out of the basement. Hall did it once and won a Hart for it. Kovalchuk is up for debate.

Rasmus Dahlin elite but not Ilya Kovalchuk, Jack Hughes, Taylor Hall, Aaron Ekblad, Rick Nash, MAF might be among the dumbest things I've ever heard.

 

[1specter]

CGY has the worst future outlook of any franchise in the NHL right now. They will be stuck in no mans land for the foreseeable future. Doubt they see playoffs before 2030s.

Don't think this is true at all. Conroy's accumulated some decent draft capital, they still have some useful players on the roster and with some more suave trades, prospects stepping up etc they could be competitive sooner than you think. No way would I have them as 'worst' outlook or even close to it.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Rasmus Dahlin elite but not Ilya Kovalchuk, Jack Hughes, Taylor Hall, Aaron Ekblad, Rick Nash, MAF might be among the dumbest things I've ever heard.

Yeah it's strange isn't it?

I never considered any of those player the top 5 in their position, even if they won hardware. Hall was never in the category of Kucherov, Pastrnak, Marchand, or Oveckin, even if he won a Hart.

I could see Dahlin winning Norris' one day, but who knows.

 

[HighLifeMan]

Don't think this is true at all. Conroy's accumulated some decent draft capital, they still have some useful players on the roster and with some more suave trades, prospects stepping up etc they could be competitive sooner than you think. No way would I have them as 'worst' outlook or even close to it.

Agreed. I always find posts like that ridiculous.

With the correct approach and some good fortune things can turn around in very short order in the NHL. We see it all the time.

It's nothing but a good thing that Conroy has put such an emphasis on drafting and development. That's how you find success in this type of market.

 

[brentashton]

In his end of the season interview, GM Craig Conroy said that he wants/hope to use the model that the Dallas Stars have used.

Having good young players mixed with veterans. The plan is to hit on the draft picks(Dallas had a killer 2017 draft), bring in free agents and add veteran players. And create a winning envoirment.

What do you guys think of this plan?

Can it it work?

What needs to be done for this to work for the Calgary Flames?

The Calgary Flames already have plenty of draft picks, but the ‘Dallas model’ requires more

If Craig Conroy is going to follow the "Dallas Stars model" for retool...

flamesnation.ca

To make it work, what Edwards needs to do then is fire Conroy and bring Hanna’s Jim Nill back to Alberta to run the club.

 

[Captain Mountain]

It can work, but it usually doesn't.

Its also not really a model, because even if you have the best scouting and development staff, you still need to get incredibly lucky. And with luck literally any model will work. Its not like rebuilding teams don't want to hit on picks or sign good free agents.

 

[FirstRowUpperDeck]

You seem confused.

1) Dallas is a model, no other team runs Veterans -> Middle Year Stars -> First/Second Year Newcomers like Dallas.

2) Dallas does not rush prospects into the league and lets them mature as necessary. Most teams bring players into the league too fast, lets remember, Stankoven spent the majority of the year in the AHL. Mavrik Bourque is still there. What other NHL franchise lets the #1 and #2 players in the AHL spend 90% of the season there? None.

3) No players are overperforming, what stats are you looking at? If anything, everyone is underperforming from their top end talent and where they could be if they played 20 mins a night. The motto has been "a little less, for a lot more".

4) You need to be a destination, free agents want to come to Dallas. The organization is top class, no penny pinching from ownership, GM is well regarded league wide, and the City is a top place to be. Sorry but a good chunk of the league can't attract free agents so this model can't work.

Add in that Nill has done a great job of staggering big contract end dates to work new players in. That accounts for a good mix of young, prime, and older stars on the Stars.

Until Nill came along in 2013, the Stars were just as much in the wilderness, bankrupt and under league control, etc. and we thought there was no hope of ever getting better. We have been pretty consistent and might have been more so if we didn't feel like we had to give Monty the boot. As good as Nill has been at a lot of things, we have had a coaching - and philosophy - carousel for a variety of reasons.

I think being known as a class organization has also helped them immensely. Pavs and Duchene are prime examples of players who will take less to keep playing here.

 

[Captain Mountain]

People are going to act like the Stars model is just the conventional wisdom. The Pavelski signing has been huge for them. Where in the conventional wisdom is it that you should give big contracts to 35 year old free agents?



It's always going to look like that when you can write off the teams that had failed rebuilds. Well obviously it didn't work for that team, have you seen how they're run?



Tampa is interesting because Hedman is an offensive specialist at this point and Stamkos is a PP specialist. Even during their cup runs Stamkos was either not in the lineup or not that good. Kucherov (58th OA), Point (79th OA), and Vasilevskiy (19 OA) are collectively more important. They're not that different from the Stars model - one great D-man picked high, but mostly really great drafting deeper into the draft.

It is conventional wisdom to pay a great veteran on a short term/big AAV deal when you're rebuilding/retooling and have the cap space.

Maybe not on HFBoards, but most failed or stalled rebuild have examples of adding veterans to complement the group in place. They just don't always work out as well as the Pavelski signing.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Refusal to rebuild , went through it in Montreal for years , but we at least had CP31 to mask it.

I wish you a long scorched earth rebuild calgary fans

 

[Djp]

I'm a Stars season ticket holder, and Jim Nill always attends a preseason STH luncheon. Of course, even after making the WCF last year, which is pretty good, some idiot fan asks why he isn't going to lose a lot and do a total rebuild.

His answer was to be careful what you wish for, since teams like Det and Ott among others are in the 10 or 11th year of their 3 year rebuild. In most markets, you have to be decent to sell enough tickets to survive. Look at SJ, their arena looks empty. AZ would look empty, but they play in a 5,000 seat arena, lol. Dallas simply can't afford to be terrible for any length of time.

You have to have some luck and skill to build what the Stars are now. Even then, they are not likely to actually win the Cup, because other teams are pretty good, too. Stars luck included a lottery move up to get Miro, and great picks (mostly in odd number years, coincidentally) of Hintz (15), Miro, Jake, JRob (17), Harley in 19, and Johnston and Stankhoven in 21. Borque came in 2020, adn Bischel in '22, so they may still be suspect, ha. '23 looks like it may break the trend and be a little crappy.

They do have a nice mix of veterans and young stars. I haven't really looked at Cup Winning rosters, but I have some hesitancy about the old and young. I think when the Stars won in '99, most of their key players were in their prime, i.e., late 20's, and they added a few older vets, i.e. Carboneau, Kene, Verbeek. They had Langenbrunner as a youngster, maybe Morrow. Then they all played well.

The planning part for Calgary could be in drafting strategy, i.e., BPA vs position, absolute skill vs big time junior program, taking chances vs playing safe. If they have a lot of draft picks, then they probably feel they can gamble with some. It might direct them to take a flyer on rounds 3 and over, maybe even sooner.

Not much they can do to be attractive to UFA, unless they really start to look like they have a great roster. The '99 Stars didn't have a salary cap to deal with. And, while they picked up the "right" UFA from 97-99, a few years later they got a little cocky, figuring every move they made would turn to gold, but Turgeon, Audette, Young, etc. didn't fit in as well and they started to decline.

The other part of matching Jim Nill is the ability to fleece other teams in trade, and never giving up top prospects. Calgary got Grush, because Bishel is the same type of player, but we think better. Even Denis Gurianov (15) brought us Dadanov, so that was like a free pickup.

a starting goalie, a 1st line center, a 1st line winger, another top 6 wingers, a franchise d, another top 4d isn't enough for you? then you also have bourque who could carve out a top 6 role.

he was one of the highest Goalies by ranking. most top goalies get drafted 20-40

some low 1st and 2nd round picks become top 3D/top 6F--its mainly luck

because of lack of play, the 2021 draft will be a drafting pattern outlier that should be ignored.

Are they able to attract FAs like Dallas does? I don’t think so. I currently live in Calgary due to a work relocation and it’s a great place for the average Joe but if I had millions I’d be on a one way out ASAP. The scotiabank saddledome is right beside a drop in homeless shelter with lots of drug users. It looks like a zombie apocalypse most nights, just to give you an idea of the teams facility.

pick high, get some decent players outside top 15 or so, get lucky

there is no science to drafting well. every eam misses outside top 15 OA picks and some have more luck

If there was some sort of certainty quality test every team would have it now.

Most of teams skaters have been drafted in the top 50

"Are you going to adopt the Pittsburgh Model? -Steve Simmons

"What the Hell is a Pittsburgh Model? They won a Goddamn Lottery!" - Brian Burke

looking at multiple cup winners since lockout season

Pittsburgh--had multiple top 5 picks
Chicago'--had multiple top 5 picks
La Kings--had multiple top 5 picks
Tampa Bay --had multiple top 5 picks
other cup winners---

Boston had at least one top 5 pick
Washington had multiple top 5 picks
Dallas had at least one and acquired one
st louis had multiple top 5 picks
colorado had multiple top 5 picks


Pittsburgh
they drafed MAF, Malkin, Crosbyy, Stall and prior to that had drafted some players outside the 1st round.
Chicago
besides Kane and toews from drafts 2001-2005 they got players in later rounds
La Kings
Kings got Doughty and Schenn and 2002-2007 they also hit on high and got some low rounds be players
Tampa Bay
--they drafted Hedman Stamkos, and Drouin and also hit on players outside the 1st
Boston
-they had top picks with Kessel, and sequin and they turned them into other stuff and they also hit players outside the top 20
Washington
--they had high pciks in Ovie and Backstom and other picks. Like tampa they didnt quicjlky win the cup. it took time.
Dallas
they acquires a top 5 pick and drafted in top 5. They hit in some later picks in the 2nd round.
st louis
they had high picks in Johnson and Pietroangleo. they added players elsewhere in the draft

colorado --they drafted high with McK and Land, and Makar. they had done craft in drafting. they have had to use trades toand signings to acquire players

Edmonton, like colorado has done crap in drafting outside the toip 10.
toronto drafted AM, Marner, Reilly
Vancouver, Calgary, and detorit have had multiple top 10 picks but nothing in the top 3.

Rangers and NJ have had multiple top 3 picks including top overall picks
TOR and EDM had their high picks hit their UFA years

 

[triggrman]

A lot of teams can trade for elite talent. A lot of teams near the bottom of the standings are on NMC.

But lets play this game!

Since 2006:
Vegas Detroit and St.L were able to acquire elite talent outside of the top 4 draft picks (Although, Eichel and Pietrangelo were traded for.

Pittsburgh had 2x 1sts, and 2x2nds
Colorado had Makar and MacKinnon 1st and 4th, Landeskog is 2nd
Caps had OV with 1st, and Backstrom with 4th
Chicago had Toews and Kane at 1st and 3rd
LA had Doughty at 2nd (they got elite talent through trade).
Tampa had a 1st and 2nd in Stamkos and Hedman and drafted elite talent in late rounds.

So is that an argument against me saying teams don't need to finish at the bottom year after year?

 

[Ianturnedbull]

he was one of the highest Goalies by ranking. most top goalies get drafted 20-40

some low 1st and 2nd round picks become top 3D/top 6F--its mainly luck

because of lack of play, the 2021 draft will be a drafting pattern outlier that should be ignored.

pick high, get some decent players outside top 15 or so, get lucky

there is no science to drafting well. every eam misses outside top 15 OA picks and some have more luck

If there was some sort of certainty quality test every team would have it now.

Most of teams skaters have been drafted in the top 50


looking at multiple cup winners since lockout season

Pittsburgh--had multiple top 5 picks
Chicago'--had multiple top 5 picks
La Kings--had multiple top 5 picks
Tampa Bay --had multiple top 5 picks
other cup winners---

Boston had at least one top 5 pick
Washington had multiple top 5 picks
Dallas had at least one and acquired one
st louis had multiple top 5 picks
colorado had multiple top 5 picks


Pittsburgh
they drafed MAF, Malkin, Crosbyy, Stall and prior to that had drafted some players outside the 1st round.
Chicago
besides Kane and toews from drafts 2001-2005 they got players in later rounds
La Kings
Kings got Doughty and Schenn and 2002-2007 they also hit on high and got some low rounds be players
Tampa Bay
--they drafted Hedman Stamkos, and Drouin and also hit on players outside the 1st
Boston
-they had top picks with Kessel, and sequin and they turned them into other stuff and they also hit players outside the top 20
Washington
--they had high pciks in Ovie and Backstom and other picks. Like tampa they didnt quicjlky win the cup. it took time.
Dallas
they acquires a top 5 pick and drafted in top 5. They hit in some later picks in the 2nd round.
st louis
they had high picks in Johnson and Pietroangleo. they added players elsewhere in the draft

colorado --they drafted high with McK and Land, and Makar. they had done craft in drafting. they have had to use trades toand signings to acquire players

Edmonton, like colorado has done crap in drafting outside the toip 10.
toronto drafted AM, Marner, Reilly
Vancouver, Calgary, and detorit have had multiple top 10 picks but nothing in the top 3.

Rangers and NJ have had multiple top 3 picks including top overall picks
TOR and EDM had their high picks hit their UFA years

I'm not exactly sure why you quoted me.

 

[Djp]

I'm not exactly sure why you quoted me.

Pittsburgh was more than winning crosbyballs. If they fidny win vrodby the likely have Malkin, keep Dtall. Snd draft someone in 2005 and prob still win a cup

 

[oconnor9sean]

It is conventional wisdom to pay a great veteran on a short term/big AAV deal when you're rebuilding/retooling and have the cap space.

Maybe not on HFBoards, but most failed or stalled rebuild have examples of adding veterans to complement the group in place. They just don't always work out as well as the Pavelski signing.

They were an overtime bounce away from the WCF right before they signed Pavelski. It wasn't a rebuilding team.

 

[North]

Basically.



No, he is not. This is his first year, he has done a decent job so far stocking up picks. It is going to take a while to clean up Brad Trevling's mess.

Nah, I stick to my assessment. He seems in over his head.

 

[Szechwan]

This almost word for word what Jim Benning used to say, even down to assuming he'd hit on his draft picks.

When does Conroy start trading for players like Linden Vey and Sven Baertschi to fill the "age gap" between the rookies and vets?

 

[HighLifeMan]

Nah, I stick to my assessment. He seems in over his head.

Based on what exactly?

 

[viper0220]

Nah, I stick to my assessment. He seems in over his head.

Let’s see what he can do.

 

[Rowlet]

Extremely bold direction by management, who could have seen this move coming?

Draft elite talent and sign veteran talent. What could go wrong?

Edmonton is one of the best teams in the NHL and a 1st overall plays a pretty big part in that...

McDavid is not a normal first overall, it took four tries and they needed a top 5 player of all time to turn that franchise around.