Calgary city council approves arena deal (UPD: new deal upcoming?)

[Mightygoose]

Looking at the TSN article.

Contact Tracing Form

In the revised agreement each party agreed to increase their funding by 12.5 million from the original agreement and the Flames covers cost overruns.

In exchange the ticket surcharge for non sporting events were to increase which would help CSEC recoup that cost. From 8 to 9.5%

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-flames-arena-tax-nenshi-1.6119545

Curious how the league will handle this Publicly they always defend the owners but behind closed door, I can't see them being pleased with this happening with ground breaking to happen next month/February

 

[Boris Zubov]

Not a good month to be Gary Bettman.

 

[voyageur]

Looking at the TSN article.

Contact Tracing Form

In the revised agreement each party agreed to increase their funding by 12.5 million from the original agreement and the Flames covers cost overruns.

In exchange the ticket surcharge for non sporting events were to increase which would help CSEC recoup that cost. From 8 to 9.5%

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-flames-arena-tax-nenshi-1.6119545

Curious how the league will handle this Publicly they always defend the owners but behind closed door, I can't see them being pleased with this happening with ground breaking to happen next month/February

With so many people getting laid off work, and all the uncertainty of building costs right now, anyone who has an arena built is looking better than any market trying to build an arena. Budgets are tighter for every level of government, though the fed is just eating up debt, while funding Wall St, and God knows where Trudeau is diverting money to while racking up the national defecit for the next governments.

I think the worst thing that could happen for the league is that owners start selling. And franchise values drop. That's an official recession, as league revenues are in danger if there are restrictions on fans.

Now you have Arizona, Calgary and Ottawa looking for new arenas. Who knows what will happen in Broward, come 2024, as tourism is waning from the pandemic. Quebec and Milwaukee have new arenas, markets like Houston, Kansas City also have one. Hamilton is in the process of retrofitting Copps Coliseum, but there's a lot of uncertainty out there.

I don't think Count Gary will get too many more arenas built to support his franchises under this political and economic climate.

 

[Mightygoose]

Flames official statement

Flames pledge to remain in Saddledome after new arena deal collapses

Agrees to stay in Saddledome but of course won't say for how long

Additional costs we're related to terms in the development permit that neither side could overcome

What happens next is anyone's guess. Part of the deal was a land swap with the stampede board do that will be off too

 

[WeaponOfChoice]

Time to revive CalgaryNext

 

[Mike Jones]

This is the best possible news for Calgary taxpayers this Christmas! This was a hideous deal from the start and one of the worst decisions made by our previous city council.

This should have always been a privately funded project. Maybe now the Flames will do the right thing and build their own arena.

And if they don't want to keep making money in a lucrative market like Calgary they can find somewhere else to go. We pay enough taxes here in Calgary and can't afford to pay for any more shiny toys for Flames owners.

 

[Mike Jones]

Full thread







<explosion >

Gondek was one of the councilors who voted for this ugly deal and deserves much of the blame for its signing. It's good to see it fail on her watch. Maybe now she'll work to ensure that future arenas are 100% privately funded with the city benefiting through taxation and fees and every other possible revenue stream.

 

[Yotes2000]

This is the best possible news for Calgary taxpayers this Christmas! This was a hideous deal from the start and one of the worst decisions made by our previous city council.

This should have always been a privately funded project. Maybe now the Flames will do the right thing and build their own arena.

And if they don't want to keep making money in a lucrative market like Calgary they can find somewhere else to go. We pay enough taxes here in Calgary and can't afford to pay for any more shiny toys for Flames owners.

I'm pretty sure the tax payer will be fine.. you wouldn't even notice the difference.

 

[Mike Jones]

I'm pretty sure the tax payer will be fine.. you wouldn't even notice the difference.

The deal ensured that there was no way taxpayers would recover even half of the original investment. Plus all of the other demented demands (Cited in two Globe and Mail articles posted earlier in this and other threads) made by the Flames were going to make things even worse for us. Calgary taxpayers were not going to be fine.

The city will benefit from a privately funded arena where the owners pay their taxes to the city and help pay for badly needed expansions to our police and fire departments.

 

[K1984]

This is the best possible news for Calgary taxpayers this Christmas! This was a hideous deal from the start and one of the worst decisions made by our previous city council.

This should have always been a privately funded project. Maybe now the Flames will do the right thing and build their own arena.

And if they don't want to keep making money in a lucrative market like Calgary they can find somewhere else to go. We pay enough taxes here in Calgary and can't afford to pay for any more shiny toys for Flames owners.

I don't think the Flames are making much, if any money in that market currently while at the Saddledome.

 

[Mike Jones]

I don't think the Flames are making much, if any money in that market currently while at the Saddledome.

Then they're more than welcome to build their own arena and make their money that way. I have no problem with them having a new shiny toy - as long as they pay for everything and pay their fair share of taxes.

 

[K1984]

Then they're more than welcome to build their own arena and make their money that way. I have no problem with them having a new shiny toy - as long as they pay for everything and pay their fair share of taxes.

You're right in theory, but you might not be left with a team.

I get that many are fundamentalists about not subsidizing arenas (including yourself obviously), but if the alternative was losing the team then I wouldn't get too upset over a tax payer contribution that in the grand scheme of municipal budgets the size of Calgary's is not that big. Subsidies get farted out to businesses all the time that nobody knows or cares about because it isn't a lightning rod like paying for an arena is.

As far as "taxpayer money!"goes, there are plenty of publicly funded amenities that I don't use whatsoever. In Edmonton we recently rebuilt many libraries and built many new rec centres that I have never stepped foot in and don't intend to. I do, however, have a nice modern arena that I go to multiple times per month (pre-COVID) where I have a great time each time. So I get what I like and others get what they like. It's how public purses work.

 

[Mike Jones]

You're right in theory, but you might not be left with a team.

So what if they go? Only a fool would leave this market but if they do there is a lot of entertainment money that would be spent somewhere else. Plus world class cities have high end soccer programs and not NHL franchises. Calgary has a growing soccer scene that would help replace the Flames in time.

And as far as libraries go, I can walk into a library and use its services with a minimal signup process. I cannot go to a Flames game without paying big money just to get in the front door.

Maybe that's one demand the city should make if the Flames are going to get any more tax dollars - free entry for all taxpayers.

 

[K1984]

So what if they go? Only a fool would leave this market but if they do there is a lot of entertainment money that would be spent somewhere else. Plus world class cities have high end soccer programs and not NHL franchises. Calgary has a growing soccer scene that would help replace the Flames in time.

Maybe in 100 years if hockey was eradicated by an alien invasion or something.

The Flames do have public benefit for a city like Calgary that would leave a massive, massive hole if they left. Sorry, but some mid-level soccer team with $20 tickets and the promise of a good time for the family doesn't, and will never in the near future come remotely close to replacing NHL hockey in a Canadian city.

 

[Mike Jones]

Maybe in 100 years if hockey was eradicated by an alien invasion or something.

The Flames do have public benefit for a city like Calgary that would leave a massive, massive hole if they left. Sorry, but some mid-level soccer team with $20 tickets and the promise of a good time for the family doesn't, and will never in the near future come remotely close to replacing NHL hockey in a Canadian city.

I think you overestimate the importance of the Flames here. You're also underestimating the growing soccer programs here.

 

[joelef]

So will Quebec’s fans call for the flames to be moved just like they do with Arizona and Carolina?

 

[K1984]

I think you overestimate the importance of the Flames here. You're also underestimating the growing soccer programs here.

When a soccer program even sniffs any of the following:

- Is a major league with the best players in the world
- Sold out building every night with very pricy average tickets
- Front page of the paper
- Can fill streets when the team has success
- Create a viscous rivalry with another city that results in the cities essentially despising each other
- Have every youth in town wanting to be their favorite player
- Has hundreds of thousands of people locally watching every game on TV

Those are all things the Flames have that no soccer team ever will. Montreal and Toronto are much, much better soccer markets than Calgary and even they don't sniff hockey in any way shape or form. What you're describing would basically mean that everyone in Calgary would have to wipe hockey from their minds and then jump on an AHL level soccer bandwagon. Pipe dream.

 

[OG6ix]

When a soccer program even sniffs any of the following:

- Is a major league with the best players in the world
- Sold out building every night with very pricy average tickets
- Front page of the paper
- Can fill streets when the team has success
- Create a viscous rivalry with another city that results in the cities essentially despising each other
- Have every youth in town wanting to be their favorite player
- Has hundreds of thousands of people locally watching every game on TV

Those are all things the Flames have that no soccer team ever will. Montreal and Toronto are much, much better soccer markets than Calgary and even they don't sniff hockey in any way shape or form. What you're describing would basically mean that everyone in Calgary would have to wipe hockey from their minds and then jump on an AHL level soccer bandwagon. Pipe dream.

Soccer as a spectator sport is niche here - I am not talking about participation as the soccer truthers will bring that up. I am a TFC fan but the team has a lot of hardcores and the casual base does not extend much after that. I went to the TFC parade and they used the same route as the Raptors more or less - it was fun but a lot of people were just hanging around from the office in that "What's happening here?" vibe. The Raptors parade absolutely took over the city in comparison.

 

[K1984]

Soccer as a spectator sport is niche here - I am not talking about participation as the soccer truthers will bring that up. I am a TFC fan but the team has a lot of hardcores and the casual base does not extend much after that. I went to the TFC parade and they used the same route as the Raptors more or less - it was fun but a lot of people were just hanging around from the office in that "What's happening here?" vibe. The Raptors parade absolutely took over the city in comparison.

And that's with a much, much, much bigger multi-generational immigrant community in the GTA that are more soccer inclined compared to Calgary.

In time I could see the MLS be at CFL levels of popularity nationally, but even that's a stretch IMO.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

And that's with a much, much, much bigger multi-gyrational immigrant community in the GTA that are more soccer inclined compared to Calgary.

In time I could see the MLS be at CFL levels of popularity nationally, but even that's a stretch IMO.

Soccer will over take hockey in Canada in 15 years, maybe less.

Hockey's been on a decline for a while and the undeserved stigma soccer got is fading.

 

[Mike Jones]

When a soccer program even sniffs any of the following:

- Is a major league with the best players in the world
- Sold out building every night with very pricy average tickets
- Front page of the paper
- Can fill streets when the team has success
- Create a viscous rivalry with another city that results in the cities essentially despising each other
- Have every youth in town wanting to be their favorite player
- Has hundreds of thousands of people locally watching every game on TV

Those are all things the Flames have that no soccer team ever will. Montreal and Toronto are much, much better soccer markets than Calgary and even they don't sniff hockey in any way shape or form. What you're describing would basically mean that everyone in Calgary would have to wipe hockey from their minds and then jump on an AHL level soccer bandwagon. Pipe dream.

They're getting there. And people in this city are noticing. A lot of people are moving here from around the world and they care more about sports like cricket and soccer so let that be a caution to hockey fans.

 

[joelef]

They're getting there. And people in this city are noticing. A lot of people are moving here from around the world and they care more about sports like cricket and soccer so let that be a caution to hockey fans.

Brampton wants to build a cricket stadium while there hockey team folded....that should be a wake up call for hockey

 

[Mike Jones]

Brampton wants to build a cricket stadium while there hockey team folded....that should be a wake up call for hockey

Absolutely. One thing that may happen here in Calgary is that when it comes time to replace McMahon Stadium (old place where our pro and college football teams play) there's a chance to build a Wembley style stadium that can accommodate growing high end soccer programs. Or that stadium should be built where the arena was supposed to go.

 

[DoyleG]

And that's with a much, much, much bigger multi-gyrational immigrant community in the GTA that are more soccer inclined compared to Calgary.

In time I could see the MLS be at CFL levels of popularity nationally, but even that's a stretch IMO.

[mod]

The reason Calvary FC is playing at Spruce Meadows is that they are owned by the organization that runs the facility. They saw the team as a way to get more out of Spruce Meadows when equestrian events are taking place. Being out in Foothills County works as well since they don't have to deal with the Calgary city council.

MLS is near zero to show up in Calgary in the long-term even. The CSA is pushing to develop the CanPL as most of those that were pro-MLS are out of the organization or have accepted CanPL as the path forward.

 

[DoyleG]

Brampton wants to build a cricket stadium while there hockey team folded....that should be a wake up call for hockey

It's not.

If there was a "need", Toronto would've built one long ago.