C Semyon Der-Arguchintsev - Traktor Chelyabinsk, KHL (2018, 76th, TOR)

[93LEAFS]

He simply isn't a good enough skater or strong enough on the puck to hold on to the puck to make the plays he wants. I'm surprised he was given an ELC so quickly.

 

[Tryamkin]

he's also barely 18

Yep. My point was that he's doing the right things, but the points aren't coming so don't give up hope on him.

 

[Tryamkin]

He simply isn't a good enough skater or strong enough on the puck to hold on to the puck to make the plays he wants. I'm surprised he was given an ELC so quickly.

Not yet, but that shouldn't be expected of someone so young who hasn't filled out yet.

 

[93LEAFS]

Not yet, but that shouldn't be expected of someone so young who hasn't filled out yet.

I think it should be expected at the OHL level, if you are projecting him to be capable of it in pro-hockey. For playmakers to succeed at the NHL level, they generally need to be either exceptional skaters who can create time on the puck through either speed or shiftyness/edge work (see Kane or Marner), or they need to be very strong on the puck (Thornton, Draisaitl, Getzlaf). I don't see an easy road-map for SDA to be able to gain either of these at an NHL level, even as he fills out. There are some rare exceptions who pull this off in the current NHL without either of these standout abilities to complement their playmaking, but they are rare exceptions. Its issues like these that have stopped a guy like Sam Reinhart from going from a good player, into a high-end talent, despite being a very high-iq player. SDA is smaller, and significantly weaker, and I don't see him becoming an explosive skater as likely. He has good hands, but unless you got Datsyuk like hands, NHL teams will just pin you against the boards and take the puck from you.

I'd love for him to live up to some people's expectations. It would greatly benefit my team, but I don't think he has a good chance of being an NHLer.

 

[TheDoldrums]

So uh, is there still any hype for this kid who almost made the leafs?

he was never remotely close to making the Leafs

 

[Tryamkin]

I think it should be expected at the OHL level, if you are projecting him to be capable of it in pro-hockey. For playmakers to succeed at the NHL level, they generally need to be either exceptional skaters who can create time on the puck through either speed or shiftyness/edge work (see Kane or Marner), or they need to be very strong on the puck (Thornton, Draisaitl, Getzlaf). I don't see an easy road-map for SDA to be able to gain either of these at an NHL level, even as he fills out. There are some rare exceptions who pull this off in the current NHL without either of these standout abilities to complement their playmaking, but they are rare exceptions. Its issues like these that have stopped a guy like Sam Reinhart from going from a good player, into a high-end talent, despite being a very high-iq player. SDA is smaller, and significantly weaker, and I don't see him becoming an explosive skater as likely. He has good hands, but unless you got Datsyuk like hands, NHL teams will just pin you against the boards and take the puck from you.

I'd love for him to live up to some people's expectations. It would greatly benefit my team, but I don't think he has a good chance of being an NHLer.

His playmaking skills and vision are quite incredible. I honestly think he can force his way into the NHL.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

His playmaking skills and vision are quite incredible. I honestly think he can force his way into the NHL.

Can you offer a bit more detail when saying he’s doing everything right?

It just feels like such an odd situation to be a player that has “incredible” vision and play making skills, have an ELC in your hand and be “doing everything right” while offensive production (points wise) is this underwhelming AND plus/minus is team worst.

I’m not a big fan of using composite stats like overall points and even worse plus minus, but this whole conversation seems odd.

I’m a leafs fan, really liked what I saw from SDA in camp and live in Europe so can’t really watch his games. Would be happy to have a more clear picture shed on this to bring my spirits up if indeed he is showing promise still.

 

[LeafChief]

So uh, is there still any hype for this kid who almost made the leafs?

When was this?

 

[Caser]

 

[Caser]

 

[Caser]

 

[3 Minute Minor]

Not yet, but that shouldn't be expected of someone so young who hasn't filled out yet.

The age excuse is a poor one. If he was a few days younger, he would have a huge advantage going into this draft because he would be a year older than most. If that was the case, based on his season to date, he might actually get picked later than he did last season.

You said his skills and vision are incredible but I'm not sure if you'd say the same thing watching full games. Highlights? Sure, he makes some great plays. But if his decision making or vision was incredible, the amount of highlight plays he would be making would be far far higher.

I was quite excited to see what he would do this season but he's been almost frustrating to watch. You can see he has some skill but he seemingly has no idea how to use it. He's lucky to be going to an organization like Toronto that has the ability to give him a lot of time and opportunity, he might be able to pan out, but it looks like the pre-season buzz was quite misleading.

 

[Tryamkin]

I think you’re jumping the gun here with this assessment. I watch the games of course, highlights aren’t aren’t an accurate way to assess talent. The potential with his vision and skill looks to be very high end. Obviously he’s not a refined product yet, he’s one day away from being included in the draft class. It’s a little harder for him than expected to stay in the play and produce, but as a smaller kid you could see why. The volume of his plays can’t really do him justice yet because of the lack of refinement he has on his game.

 

[3 Minute Minor]

I think you’re jumping the gun here with this assessment. I watch the games of course, highlights aren’t aren’t an accurate way to assess talent. The potential with his vision and skill looks to be very high end. Obviously he’s not a refined product yet, he’s one day away from being included in the draft class. It’s a little harder for him than expected to stay in the play and produce, but as a smaller kid you could see why. The volume of his plays can’t really do him justice yet because of the lack of refinement he has on his game.

I still don't understand why you're bringing up his age as a positive.

Had he popped off this season, you could point to his age and say "Well if he was a few days younger he would be in this upcoming draft and would have went much higher than last year!" But he hasn't popped off. So realistically if he was a few days younger and was in this upcoming draft: he's a late birthyear, lacking size, under a ppg pace. That isn't a player that teams would be chasing in the higher rounds. That's just a fact.

There's still "plenty" of time by OHL standards. 1.5 seasons to find his game and really grow into it. It's only going to get harder from there as the AHL will have bigger players, less space, and his decision making will have to improve a lot as a professional.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I acknowledge he has the potential, but to date he hasn't lived up to the buzz/hype from the pre-season which is funny to say because he's a 3rd round pick.

 

[Tryamkin]

I still don't understand why you're bringing up his age as a positive.

Had he popped off this season, you could point to his age and say "Well if he was a few days younger he would be in this upcoming draft and would have went much higher than last year!" But he hasn't popped off. So realistically if he was a few days younger and was in this upcoming draft: he's a late birthyear, lacking size, under a ppg pace. That isn't a player that teams would be chasing in the higher rounds. That's just a fact.

There's still "plenty" of time by OHL standards. 1.5 seasons to find his game and really grow into it. It's only going to get harder from there as the AHL will have bigger players, less space, and his decision making will have to improve a lot as a professional.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I acknowledge he has the potential, but to date he hasn't lived up to the buzz/hype from the pre-season which is funny to say because he's a 3rd round pick.

Not every kid has to explode in the CHL right away. Players don’t develop in a linear line, it’s just not how it happens. I’m excited for what his potential is and how good his future package looks. I don’t think people hyped him up as much as it looks like. More so seeing the player he could be later.

 

[3 Minute Minor]

Not every kid has to explode in the CHL right away. Players don’t develop in a linear line, it’s just not how it happens. I’m excited for what his potential is and how good his future package looks. I don’t think people hyped him up as much as it looks like. More so seeing the player he could be later.

That's a nice sentiment and I somewhat agree with you because I know that player development isn't linear but you would be hard pressed to find examples of undersized skilled players that couldn't put together their offensive game in the CHL but were able to translate it to the NHL. If you find 1 or 2, you're describing miracles and odds are their careers were short.

Typically, the example is of an undersized offensive CHL weapon that is questioned on his size. They don't question the offensive upside, they question whether or not it will translate to the NHL due to the small stature of the player and whether or not they can stand up to the physical demands of the NHL. Alex DeBrincat is a fine example. 100+ pts in his 17 year old season, 100+ pts in his draft season, still dropped to the 2nd round due to concerns about his size.

That isn't what SDA is. He's undersized, he plays a skilled game although he doesn't produce much offensively, he doesn't bring much to the table defensively, and his skating isn't elite.

He has a lot more work to do if he wants to be a serious NHL prospect.

 

[firstemperor]

That's a nice sentiment and I somewhat agree with you because I know that player development isn't linear but you would be hard pressed to find examples of undersized skilled players that couldn't put together their offensive game in the CHL but were able to translate it to the NHL. If you find 1 or 2, you're describing miracles and odds are their careers were short.

Just off the top of my head, Yanni Gourde and Tyler Johnson are two good examples that didn't explode right away after their draft years either. Otherwise, SDA would have been picked a lot higher.

Yes, it's a crapshoot for any player drafted that late regardless but there are definitely examples. It's a bit tough to evaluate SDA as well, he seems to be a player that elevates his game with higher level players (i.e. not anyone on his team), but also a huge project in terms of physical maturity as well.

He's a project pick and should be treated as such.

 

[93LEAFS]

Just off the top of my head, Yanni Gourde and Tyler Johnson are two good examples that didn't explode right away after their draft years either. Otherwise, SDA would have been picked a lot higher.

Yes, it's a crapshoot for any player drafted that late regardless but there are definitely examples. It's a bit tough to evaluate SDA as well, he seems to be a player that elevates his game with higher level players (i.e. not anyone on his team), but also a huge project in terms of physical maturity as well.

He's a project pick and should be treated as such.

Those guys are such exceptions, that I don't think much can be learned from them exploding and applying to other players. How many players fit those guys statistically end up in U-Sports at 22?

He has significantly more issues than someone like Bracco, which makes me think he's highly unlikely to become an NHLer. An 18-year-old OHLer with an ELC should be able to put up high-end numbers if that is their primary skill. The guy has trouble buying time and staying on his feet in the OHL, I have a hard time seeing him being able to do it at the NHL level.

 

[Critical13]

That's a nice sentiment and I somewhat agree with you because I know that player development isn't linear but you would be hard pressed to find examples of undersized skilled players that couldn't put together their offensive game in the CHL but were able to translate it to the NHL. If you find 1 or 2, you're describing miracles and odds are their careers were short.

Typically, the example is of an undersized offensive CHL weapon that is questioned on his size. They don't question the offensive upside, they question whether or not it will translate to the NHL due to the small stature of the player and whether or not they can stand up to the physical demands of the NHL. Alex DeBrincat is a fine example. 100+ pts in his 17 year old season, 100+ pts in his draft season, still dropped to the 2nd round due to concerns about his size.

That isn't what SDA is. He's undersized, he plays a skilled game although he doesn't produce much offensively, he doesn't bring much to the table defensively, and his skating isn't elite.

He has a lot more work to do if he wants to be a serious NHL prospect.

I've only seen glimpses of him from highlights. After an awful start it looks like he's flirting with ppg again. Has he really been bad enough (as a 3rd round pick) to warrant this kind of quick judgement?

 

[justafan22]

I've only seen glimpses of him from highlights. After an awful start it looks like he's flirting with ppg again. Has he really been bad enough (as a 3rd round pick) to warrant this kind of quick judgement?

When he was drafted, honestly he was a project and I'm not worrying about anything he does until 2020-21. When that season comes he'll just have turned 20.

 

[3 Minute Minor]

I've only seen glimpses of him from highlights. After an awful start it looks like he's flirting with ppg again. Has he really been bad enough (as a 3rd round pick) to warrant this kind of quick judgement?

I don't understand.

Quick judgement? I've been watching the kid since he was a bantam player for CIHA.

I also don't think I was overly critical of the kid or his game, I feel like it was a pretty fair assessment. I even mentioned how he still had time to turn it around and find his game and how he can still be a serious NHL prospect with a lot of hard work.


The only reason I think anyone would get defensive is because I mentioned the pre-season buzz being misleading, Leaf fans thought they scored a huge steal in the 3rd round. It no longer looks like the huge steal, it looks like a standard 3rd round pick that needs a lot of work.

It's OK to have a 3rd round pick that needs a lot of work and has huge holes in their game, most do.

 

[Tryamkin]

I don't understand.

Quick judgement? I've been watching the kid since he was a bantam player for CIHA.

I also don't think I was overly critical of the kid or his game, I feel like it was a pretty fair assessment. I even mentioned how he still had time to turn it around and find his game and how he can still be a serious NHL prospect with a lot of hard work.


The only reason I think anyone would get defensive is because I mentioned the pre-season buzz being misleading, Leaf fans thought they scored a huge steal in the 3rd round. It no longer looks like the huge steal, it looks like a standard 3rd round pick that needs a lot of work.

It's OK to have a 3rd round pick that needs a lot of work and has huge holes in their game, most do.

He’s a project pick. Anyone who expected him to make an impact within the first couple seasons is just wrong.

 

[Pyromaniac]

I don't understand.

Quick judgement? I've been watching the kid since he was a bantam player for CIHA.

I also don't think I was overly critical of the kid or his game, I feel like it was a pretty fair assessment. I even mentioned how he still had time to turn it around and find his game and how he can still be a serious NHL prospect with a lot of hard work.


The only reason I think anyone would get defensive is because I mentioned the pre-season buzz being misleading, Leaf fans thought they scored a huge steal in the 3rd round. It no longer looks like the huge steal, it looks like a standard 3rd round pick that needs a lot of work.

It's OK to have a 3rd round pick that needs a lot of work and has huge holes in their game, most do.

Such blanket statements about entire fan bases only serves to discredit your opinion. Now you don't sound like an objective viewer but someone with an agenda. There was some excitement around SDA and his good training camp but hardly enough that people were penciling him into future lineups. So please, quit it with the hyperbole.

Just in this thread I see a Habs fan and a Canucks fan who are more hyped about him than Leafs fans.

 

[3 Minute Minor]

Such blanket statements about entire fan bases only serves to discredit your opinion. Now you don't sound like an objective viewer but someone with an agenda. There was some excitement around SDA and his good training camp but hardly enough that people were penciling him into future lineups. So please, quit it with the hyperbole.

Just in this thread I see a Habs fan and a Canucks fan who are more hyped about him than Leafs fans.

The Leafs management thought they scored a huge steal as well, they signed him to an ELC during training camp There's nothing wrong with that and I have more respect for the Leafs management than anyone I'll find on hfboards, so there's definitely no agenda.

Are you trying to re-write history about the buzz around SDA during training camp simply because I didn't say "oh but some Leaf fans were also tempering expectations."

Quit it with the dramatics and maybe discuss the player.

 

[Pyromaniac]

The Leafs management thought they scored a huge steal as well, they signed him to an ELC during training camp There's nothing wrong with that and I have more respect for the Leafs management than anyone I'll find on hfboards, so there's definitely no agenda.

Are you trying to re-write history about the buzz around SDA during training camp simply because I didn't say "oh but some Leaf fans were also tempering expectations."

Quit it with the dramatics and maybe discuss the player.

The same goes for you. You are the only person in this thread that has called him a "huge steal". To attribute this opinion to all Leaf fans is a blatant falsehood. Also this "history" that you speak of must be a figment of your imagination.