Bylsma/coaching discussion thread

[KIRK]

I've asked this before, but for the fun of it I'll ask again?

What talent are we talking about again? I mean besides the obvious two.

Well, perhaps that's part of the issue, which is on the GM as much as the coach.

That said, I seem to recall a lack of talent (aside from the obvious two) not being an issue with you with the previous coach.

So, I'll ask: Why is Bylsma the right coach for the Pens?

I don't presume that you necessarily think that as much as you're pointing out other factors. I'd just like to know what's different, from your perspective, now than where the Pens team was four years ago that causes you to raise the lack of talent issue first, because this team has more talent than the one then did.

 

[TheSniper26]

I've asked this before, but for the fun of it I'll ask again?

What talent are we talking about again? I mean besides the obvious two.

Well the two best players in the world, a young 40 goal winger(Neal) and a Norris caliber dman(Letang) seems like a pretty high end core of talent when you compare it to other teams. Then throw in guys like Kunitz and Staal who, while perhaps not game breakers, are still quality players that would have prominent roles on any roster. I'd say that's some pretty good talent to work with as your core.

 

[Crafton]

it's not so drastic a move. only 7 coaches have been tenured since '08.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

This is repeating what has been said but ... I know a coach alone cannot be expected to magically turn things around. Sometimes the players just don't execute. But if something's broke, and you care, try to fix it. I don't get DB's lack of apparent attempts at adjustment. This is the same stale show going on 3 years. I really like the guy and want him to succeed, but I've been more than ready to see him gone for the last two years, at least.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein

That is my major issue with Bylsma. Coaches adjust, both in games and season to season. Bylsma is the Ovechkin of coaches. A one trick pony that had great success early on, but once people caught on to his one trick, he could not adapt.

 

[KIRK]

I think he'll get a long enough leash this season, but if we exit in the first round AGAIN I will be shocked if he's still around next season.

Too bad Therrien has a job now, it would be cosmic irony if Therrien replaced Blysma half way through this season, we figure out how to play defense and won a cup... It could be an endless cycle...

Should he get the end of the season no matter what or only if the Pens aren't in jeopardy of missing the playoffs? Or, should Shero be proactive this time?

I don't disagree about your interpretation about what likely will happen, but what do you think should happen?

 

[Bennett Brauer]

Alright, so I would like to add to what I was saying, Like some on here, I speak out of anger. The players like Bylsma, it wouldn't be a popular decision to fire him, I don't think he will get fired by the team either. The whole league had a short training camp, and has a short season. I think Bylsma is still a decent coach for the Penguins regardless of what I said before, and there really isn't any proven head coaching upgrades.

Keep Bylsma.

 

[KIRK]

it's not so drastic a move. only 7 coaches have been tenured since '08.

NHL coaches, as the saying goes, are hired to be fired.

 

[cheesedanish87]

I've asked this before, but for the fun of it I'll ask again?

What talent are we talking about again? I mean besides the obvious two.

Sid gino neal letang fleury are all allstar type players. Martin was known as a good def til he got here. He had staal til this year. Can u name me a team that has more talent?

 

[KIRK]

Alright, so I would like to add to what I was saying, Like some on here, I speak out of anger. The players like Bylsma, it wouldn't be a popular decision to fire him, I don't think he will get fired by the team either. The whole league had a short training camp, and has a short season. I think Bylsma is still a decent coach for the Penguins regardless of what I said before, and there really isn't any proven head coaching upgrades.

Keep Bylsma.

I don't think he'll be fired.

The 'there's nobody better' excuse isn't unreasonable. It's one that people were using to defend Therrien four years ago.

The 'players like him' excuse shouldn't matter. I remember the story I heard once about Montreal players hating Scotty Bowman's guts every day of the year except one. I think Sid and Geno might prefer that feeling again to the feeling since of liking their coach every day of the year except one.

 

[KIRK]

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein

That is my major issue with Bylsma. Coaches adjust, both in games and season to season. Bylsma is the Ovechkin of coaches. A one trick pony that had great success early on, but once people caught on to his one trick, he could not adapt.

Interesting comparison.

I called him the Tomlin of coaches elsewhere. Wins a title with the other guys players and sense of structure and discipline and then gets exposed with the passing of time and memory.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I started this thread because I thought it would be better to have it all in one spot, where we could have a mature conversation about it.

I'd love to hear from people like Cole and Jiggy who know a lot more about the X's and O's and other variables than a lot of us.

BUT, the point you make about results mattering is one that I share, as is Jaded's point about seeing the same mistakes again and again.

For me-- I posted it elsewhere but I'll post it again here-- the right coach is someone who uses everything at his disposal (systems, line combinations, motivation/the whip, adjustments, etc) to put players, especially his best players, into position where they're playing to their strengths and not to their weaknesses. Put another way, the right coach puts his players into the best possible position to make plays, and from there it's on the players.

When I look at this team, I see players so hopelessly out of position that I cannot help but to wonder if that's coaching or the players not trying/caring enough (and if the reason even matters because the result is the same). I cannot help but to wonder if the limited success this team has enjoyed is as much about transcendent individual efforts from guys like Sid and Geno and to a lesser extent Flower and Letang, where they're willing the team to victory in spite of, rather than because of, the coaching.

I definitely agree with this. I think that the main reason the Pens did so well two seasons ago without Crosby and Malkin is that the players on the roster who weren't hurt were mainly grinder types who fit perfectly into Bylsma's "north-south" system, because it required relatively little offensive skill or creativity. However, even then they would win most of their games by one goal or in the SO and ultimately struggled mightily offensively against Tampa in the playoffs.

Like you said, the best coaches will adjust their system and strategies according to the talents of the team they are coaching, and I have never seen Bylsma really try to alter his team's approach. There is no reason that in order to gain the zone with 87's or 71's line, we should need to fire the puck at Dupuis' stick from a stretch pass half the rink away just so he can deflect the puck in. We should be trying to get the puck to our talented players so they can carry the puck into the offensive zone and make plays. It seems that the only times this season that Crosby has been able to get the puck in any sort of open space have been a breakdown by the opposing team defensively. I just don't see that Bylsma is getting the most out of this roster. And now that the team seems to only have a passing interest in playing hard half the time or defending in their own zone, I don't see much more use for Bylsma.

 

[MrBurghundy]

These two posts could probably go here too...

It wasn't hard for the Jets to counter the Pens tonight. I was at the game. I noticed a total committment especially in the third to plug up the neutral zone. There was very little forechecking. Basically one guy was right in the middle, and the other four made a nice box just inside the corners of the neutral zone. That's what caused the Wheeler empty net goal. It seemed every time the Pens were trying a stretch pass almost right to the blue line. Even if it worked the puck carrier was shadowed into the zone, and the other Jets would shadow your players. The Pens needed to try something new, like dump and chase (Pavelec is *very* bad at handling the puck) or drop it down and across rather than trying to force the play.

Bylsma used these stretch passes to destroy the Jets last year. Way too many odd man rushes, too much run and gun. The Jets cannot compete with any talented team doing that. Tonight that game plan fell apart.

I was quite pissed off after that game and just couldn't talk hockey.

Simple stuff... it's hockey 101. Don't turn the puck over. How about... support the ****ing puck carrier. We are making 60 foot passes 24/7. How about a 5-7 foot pass every now and again? A board chip/support/etc.

People can ***** about our roster all they want. Our lineup is freaking great. We need better coaching. Plain and simple. You can switch lines.... it won't mask your **** system.

Any other coach would catch on that TK struggled on his off-wing. Stop putting him in a position to lose the puck. Anyone else would have called a time out against a hostile crowd. It's just a joke anymore. He's not a coach for this team. Bring on the next one.

edit: The passing comes down to one thing - puck support. There is none of it. We are looking for sexy long passes all game. Any good NHLer picks it off. Support the puck carrier.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Interesting comparison.

I called him the Tomlin of coaches elsewhere. Wins a title with the other guys players and sense of structure and discipline and then gets exposed with the passing of time and memory.

To be fair to Tomlin, he has been more successful than Cowher in the playoffs.

 

[Malkinstheman]

there really isn't any proven head coaching upgrades.

.

If bylsma were to be fired could hynes be considered a good replacement? Dont know much about him but ive heard hes known for getting alot out of his players

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Interesting comparison.

I called him the Tomlin of coaches elsewhere. Wins a title with the other guys players and sense of structure and discipline and then gets exposed with the passing of time and memory.

Tomlin does some boneheaded things. His riverboat gambler routine that always fails is getting really old. But he does adjust, and actually coach.

I think that the Ovechkin comparison works more. If there is a major criticism of Bylsma it is failure to adjust. It is the most damning evidence against both Ovy and DB.

 

[MrBurghundy]

If bylsma were to be fired could hynes be considered a good replacement? Dont know much about him but ive heard hes known for getting alot out of his players

No he wouldn't.

 

[TheSniper26]

To be fair, it's not all simply coaching either. Many of the mistakes that are costing this team are simply bad individual decisions by the players. Bylsma can't make a guy who panics with the puck suddenly have the puck poise of Martin Skoula. There are times when it looks like 18 guys who all have their own idea of how best to play the game. It's tough to say how much of that is on Bylsma or on the roster. Either way, if something has to change, it won't be the roster getting the chop.

 

[KIRK]

To be fair to Tomlin, he has been more successful than Cowher in the playoffs.

And Bylsma has been more successful than Therrien, but the success was enjoyed early and has become more and more fleeting with the passage of time and as the new coach has wiped away the last bits of structure and discipline of the old coach.

Tomlin does some boneheaded things. His riverboat gambler routine that always fails is getting really old. But he does adjust, and actually coach.

I think that the Ovechkin comparison works more. If there is a major criticism of Bylsma it is failure to adjust. It is the most damning evidence against both Ovy and DB.

Fair enough . . . one trick pony.

 

[Crafton]

Terry Murray time.

the criticism was after all that he forced the Kings too be so defensive they forgot how to score. plus he's gotta be itching to win after watching his kings win the cup.

 

[KIRK]

These two posts could probably go here too...

I'd really love Cole and a few of the others to do a full explanation here of the system issues.

That point from the Jets fan on Noel's adjustments was spot on. I was half expecting to hear Errey talk about the great job Noel was doing adjusting and then see a camera shot of the Jets bench tonight showing Noel reading a copy of 'Coaching for Dummies'.

 

[Tender Rip]

To be fair, it's not all simply coaching either. Many of the mistakes that are costing this team are simply bad individual decisions by the players. Bylsma can't make a guy who panics with the puck suddenly have the puck poise of Martin Skoula. There are times when it looks like 18 guys who all have their own idea of how best to play the game. It's tough to say how much of that is on Bylsma or on the roster. Either way, if something has to change, it won't be the roster getting the chop.

No. That is what a poorly coached team looks like.

Anyway, I don't even think they are being uncoordinated about how to play. They are playing what Bylsma preaches. After the Tampa series (note: not during), he went to the stretch pass to negate their system against us, but instead of it being a system designed against a particular opponents scheme against us, it has become the routine, and we're being obvious to anyone now.

Cole said something right in half response to my comment about us being a poor passing team for a long time now. He said it was about puck support. And that is true, but this is also down to it being impossible to support the puck when there are few if any short passes. What we do well is when we're on the rush after a turnover, because then we come up the ice fast with forwards close to eachother. Then we always look dangerous.

But right now we are simply a team that hopes our super stars will do the damage 5 on 5 or we hope our PP will sort us out. Our 'established' offense, for lack of a better word, is an abomination from a structural point of view. And that is because we keep doing exactly what our opponents expect, and the turnovers that result from this is the chief reason our otherwise (mostly) good defenders come to look terribad.

 

[zhenyas most fly rep]

This thread shouldn't be about Bylsma, it should be about Shero.

Look, really, I don't see why we should be discussing about HCDB, the problems with his coaching(or lack thereof) have been going on for years.
He doesn't make in game adjustments, he doesn't held players accountable, he doesn't game plan, he doesn't dictate the match ups, he doesn't put players in position to succeed (for ex Neal on the point on the PP : brilliant, Malkin on the wing but I digress), offensively his system is taylor-made for a team made of grinder in its entirety(too bad we have 2 of the most skilled player on earth), players have been regressing defensively under his guidance, has been outcoached in about every series since the Cup, etc...

Frankly, I don't want to rip too much on the guy because we have seen in his coaching, next to no improvement over the years and recognizing that and taking decision such as replacing him or helping him out where he was lacking by giving him better assistants is ultimately Shero's job.

And no I don't think Reirden and Granato are helping the cause.

Not to mention, Shero hasn't done a move to address our glaring needs in a year, outside of signing Glass.
Although, I will be the first to say that he's one of the best in the business when it comes to making trades. (Staal's trade, Goli's )

 

[KIRK]

To be fair, it's not all simply coaching either. Many of the mistakes that are costing this team are simply bad individual decisions by the players. Bylsma can't make a guy who panics with the puck suddenly have the puck poise of Martin Skoula. There are times when it looks like 18 guys who all have their own idea of how best to play the game. It's tough to say how much of that is on Bylsma or on the roster. Either way, if something has to change, it won't be the roster getting the chop.

Absolutely, and I don't think that anyone would disagree.

But, by the same token, here's always something that I've wondered: If a player is put into a position where he's more likely to make a bad play, then should we be surprised when he does?

I remember Errey showing a sequence of the Malkin line entering the offensive zone against the Leafs five strong. Geno literally had no options once he got five feet inside the offensive zone.

In a way, I think that's a giant metaphor for how it goes for a lot of the guys in a lot of situations.

 

[KIRK]

No. That is exactly what a poorly coached team looks like. That is exactly the issue.

Tender Rip, I'd really appreciate hearing your expanded thoughts on this. I know you think you have a bias. We all do. But, I'd really love to hear your thoughts on all of it.

Really, what the defense of Bylsma seems to boil down to is 'he's a good guy', 'there's no better replacement', and 'it's only four games', to wit I reply 'doesn't matter', 'doesn't matter', and 'it's more than that'.

 

[cheesedanish87]

I forgot to mention it and i didnt c it posted anywhere else but the guy cant figure out how to coach a pp with the 2 best players in the world. He actually took the best player in the world off the #1 pp unit in the playoffs last year that alone should be enough to get him fired.