Byfuglien

[Jet]

Last night reinforced for me that Byfuglien should play forward.

Actually it reinforced to me that we should just trade him this offseason and fill a need properly.

He did some incredible things last night. Walked in and scored a goal from the faceoff (granted the Flyers D pretty much rolled out a red carpet and Zepp forgot he had a stick in his hand). He was really physical at times and got the crowd/ team going.

He also was directly responsible for the opening goal on a pinch that was beyond idiotic. The same pinch that almost lost us a game a few games back where he sees the forward on his side trying to pinch off a clear down the wall, and instead of recognizing that is the guy who would be backing him up and he has about a 10% chance to keep the puck in he still tries to pinch and gives an odd man rush. To make matters worse, Giroux and Voracek were on the ice and what was the ONE thing we were saying in the GDT? Don't give those 2 odd man rushes!!!

Then the giveaway behind the net. It happens to all defensemen from time to time but it just reeked of that lazy carelessness that creeps into Buff's game. It was at a critical time and it cost us a point we desperately need considering we play CHI and MIN X2 + NYI coming up.

Buff gives up too much in our zone. It's not even what he gives up it is when he gives up these chances. If he continues to do this kind of stuff (and lets face it, he is not likely to change that type of play now if he's not willing to do it when Maurice basically told him that playing D regularly depended on it) he will be moving back to forward when bodies come back, and he won't be re-signing here.

I want to stress, the loss last night can be put on the entire teams shoulders, but Buff HAS to lead in that instance. Of course, a goalie who could stop a puck when it matters would have helped too, but it wouldn't have changed my breakdown of his play.

 

[KingBogo]

I agree, ps.

And with a few more games like last night, that highlights the good (goal) and bad (pinch and Giroux's strip) of having Buff on d, will be interesting to see what they prefer.

It could go either way at this point. But if we end up on the wrong side of too many higher scoring run and gun games, we will see Buff back at forward.

 

[garret9]

Buff gives up less than Trouba or Bogo.

 

[Hunter368]

Last night reinforced for me that Byfuglien should play forward.

Actually it reinforced to me that we should just trade him this offseason and fill a need properly.

He did some incredible things last night. Walked in and scored a goal from the faceoff (granted the Flyers D pretty much rolled out a red carpet and Zepp forgot he had a stick in his hand). He was really physical at times and got the crowd/ team going.

He also was directly responsible for the opening goal on a pinch that was beyond idiotic. The same pinch that almost lost us a game a few games back where he sees the forward on his side trying to pinch off a clear down the wall, and instead of recognizing that is the guy who would be backing him up and he has about a 10% chance to keep the puck in he still tries to pinch and gives an odd man rush. To make matters worse, Giroux and Voracek were on the ice and what was the ONE thing we were saying in the GDT? Don't give those 2 odd man rushes!!!

Then the giveaway behind the net. It happens to all defensemen from time to time but it just reeked of that lazy carelessness that creeps into Buff's game. It was at a critical time and it cost us a point we desperately need considering we play CHI and MIN X2 + NYI coming up.

Buff gives up too much in our zone. It's not even what he gives up it is when he gives up these chances. If he continues to do this kind of stuff (and lets face it, he is not likely to change that type of play now if he's not willing to do it when Maurice basically told him that playing D regularly depended on it) he will be moving back to forward when bodies come back, and he won't be re-signing here.

I want to stress, the loss last night can be put on the entire teams shoulders, but Buff HAS to lead in that instance. Of course, a goalie who could stop a puck when it matters would have helped too, but it wouldn't have changed my breakdown of his play.

Agreed. As Ive stated many times, we should trade him this TD while his return is highest.

 

[Jet]

Agreed. As Ive stated many times, we should trade him this TD while his return is highest.

I actually just went back and watched the tying goal gif a few times because I wanted to see if Harrison did indeed pass the puck inadvertently to Lecavalier in the slot (he didn't).

What I actually noticed is Byfuglien, doing absolutely jack **** in front of the net.

So you can pin some of the blame on him there. why he doesn't do SOMETHING to tie up Lecavalier is beyond me.

Just reinforces my gut about Buff and what I do not like about him playing defense.

 

[Jet]

Buff gives up less than Trouba or Bogo.

Well, Bogo struggled last year very admittedly and has been very good defensively this year.

Trouba is a sophomore and should not be held to the same standard as an NHL veteran defender.

Both of them are about a million times better at defending and making smart pinches.

 

[StronGeer]

Garret, do you have those fancy schmancy shot against heat maps for Buff, Bogo, and Trouba? Or the ones that compare to league average?

 

[Hunter368]

I actually just went back and watched the tying goal gif a few times because I wanted to see if Harrison did indeed pass the puck inadvertently to Lecavalier in the slot (he didn't).

What I actually noticed is Byfuglien, doing absolutely jack **** in front of the net.

So you can pin some of the blame on him there. why he doesn't do SOMETHING to tie up Lecavalier is beyond me.

Just reinforces my gut about Buff and what I do not like about him playing defense.

I love watching Buff more than any other Jet on the team, but I would trade him a second. Exciting doesn't mean smart, time to trade him at the TD. His return will help us improve the team in the long run and likely reduce our salary hit in the short run.

 

[Romang67]

I still like him. I think I'm gonna get a #33 Jets jersey with the name BYFUGLIENOND. Just to spite Jet.

 

[KingBogo]

Last night reinforced for me that Byfuglien should play forward.

Actually it reinforced to me that we should just trade him this offseason and fill a need properly.

He did some incredible things last night. Walked in and scored a goal from the faceoff (granted the Flyers D pretty much rolled out a red carpet and Zepp forgot he had a stick in his hand). He was really physical at times and got the crowd/ team going.

He also was directly responsible for the opening goal on a pinch that was beyond idiotic. The same pinch that almost lost us a game a few games back where he sees the forward on his side trying to pinch off a clear down the wall, and instead of recognizing that is the guy who would be backing him up and he has about a 10% chance to keep the puck in he still tries to pinch and gives an odd man rush. To make matters worse, Giroux and Voracek were on the ice and what was the ONE thing we were saying in the GDT? Don't give those 2 odd man rushes!!!

Then the giveaway behind the net. It happens to all defensemen from time to time but it just reeked of that lazy carelessness that creeps into Buff's game. It was at a critical time and it cost us a point we desperately need considering we play CHI and MIN X2 + NYI coming up.

Buff gives up too much in our zone. It's not even what he gives up it is when he gives up these chances. If he continues to do this kind of stuff (and lets face it, he is not likely to change that type of play now if he's not willing to do it when Maurice basically told him that playing D regularly depended on it) he will be moving back to forward when bodies come back, and he won't be re-signing here.

I want to stress, the loss last night can be put on the entire teams shoulders, but Buff HAS to lead in that instance. Of course, a goalie who could stop a puck when it matters would have helped too, but it wouldn't have changed my breakdown of his play.

Personally I'm torn on Buff because he is just so talented. He is engaging, makes things happen and is a highlight real. But the OT goal drove me crazy. As a defenseman, when you start losing control of the puck, especially in such a crucial part of the game, you have to stop thinking offense and just protect the puck. He could of put on the brakes and shield the puck. It wouldn't be pretty but with his size he would likely keep possession and then he could have slid it to the corner for Chiarot who was thinking he needed to come support rather than protect the other side of the net.

 

[Flair Hay]

I love watching Buff more than any other Jet on the team, but I would trade him a second. Exciting doesn't mean smart, time to trade him at the TD. His return will help us improve the team in the long run and likely reduce our salary hit in the short run.

Why trade him away when he can still be a punishing power forward and quarterback the PP? He's not overpaid considering his versatility. His physical impact on the game is bigger than anyone on the team.

 

[Jet]

I still like him. I think I'm gonna get a #33 Jets jersey with the name BYFUGLIENOND. Just to spite Jet.

You'll be taking the bus back to your hotel if you do that!

 

[Duke749]

When was the last time Buff wasn't always matched up against the other teams best line? Seems he's always had some of the toughest assignments and hasn't had many opportunities against weaker lines.

The only problem I have with Buff at forward is he doesn't create as much havoc offensively. I mean with a healthy lineup im not against him at forward, but that doesn't mean I think he's better there.

He's made more of a positive impact in less games at defense this year then at forward.

 

[JetsFan815]

Last night reinforced for me that Byfuglien should play forward.

Actually it reinforced to me that we should just trade him this offseason and fill a need properly.

Funny it did the exact opposite for me.

He also was directly responsible for the opening goal on a pinch that was beyond idiotic. The same pinch that almost lost us a game a few games back where he sees the forward on his side trying to pinch off a clear down the wall, and instead of recognizing that is the guy who would be backing him up and he has about a 10% chance to keep the puck in he still tries to pinch and gives an odd man rush. To make matters worse, Giroux and Voracek were on the ice and what was the ONE thing we were saying in the GDT? Don't give those 2 odd man rushes!!!

I'm sorry but I am going to have to call bs on this. The system that the Jets are playing is entirely predicated on an extremely agressive forecheck in the offensive zone. Our defensemen are routinely pinching to keep the play alive in the offensive zone, even a stay at home guy like Stuart has been more active with the puck. It is not something "Buff is doing" it's the system (even acknowledged by Maurice in his presser). You can't have your cake and eat it too, pinching on plays like that to try to keep the play alive is precisely the reason why the Jets are giving so few shots against by largely playing in the offensive zone. Same with Pardy in the Buffalo game, he pinched and some people blamed him for it but I saw it as just a part an parcel of the system. The forward did not do his job. Buff was right to pinch. I would support him making that play even with the benefit of hindsight.

You can't go around tiptoeing around other team's top players otherwise you are going to end up playing 25 mins while they are on the ice in your own end. I find it a bit rich that people are suggesting that the Jets change their style based on who is on the ice, when the entire critisism against this team last season and in the Noel days was that they always tended to play based on how the opposition wanted them to play

Then the giveaway behind the net. It happens to all defensemen from time to time but it just reeked of that lazy carelessness that creeps into Buff's game. It was at a critical time and it cost us a point we desperately need considering we play CHI and MIN X2 + NYI coming up.

How about this for a "giveaway behind the net"?

I have seen Bogo and Trouba make as many if not more mistakes as Buff has. And in Bogo's case there hasn't been much offence to make up for it either.

I want to stress, the loss last night can be put on the entire teams shoulders, but Buff HAS to lead in that instance. Of course, a goalie who could stop a puck when it matters would have helped too, but it wouldn't have changed my breakdown of his play.

Buff had 0 to do with last night's loss, he was the reason we were dominating and controlling the game for 40 minutes. As has been pointed out multiple times, any player that does anything meaningful with the puck has a higher chance to mishandling it. Buff was matched up against the top 2 scoring players in the NHL and pretty much kept them docile the entire game and if the goalie had not crapped the bed it would have been an easy 2 points and we wouldn't even be talking about this

I actually just went back and watched the tying goal gif a few times because I wanted to see if Harrison did indeed pass the puck inadvertently to Lecavalier in the slot (he didn't).

What I actually noticed is Byfuglien, doing absolutely jack **** in front of the net.

So you can pin some of the blame on him there. why he doesn't do SOMETHING to tie up Lecavalier is beyond me.

Just reinforces my gut about Buff and what I do not like about him playing defense.

You have got to be kidding me

It's obvious that Buff sees the puck and moves towards it but Kane quickly passes it back to Harrison. Buff moves towards him to support the puck seeing that a Flyer had dived in front, but the puck has a already been turned over to Vinny, Buff's entire body momentum is still taking him forward and by the time he even has a realistic chance to turn around, the puck has already been shot (and all of this happened over the course of a second). Mathematically both Kane and Halischuck are closer to Vinny than Buff. Buff is not The Flash

 

[wpgsilver]

Theres a lot in the post above mine, so of which I agree with some of which I don't.

I'm not going to respond to the whole thing because frankly I'm lazy. But saying Buff had 0 to do with last nights loss is wrong. I'm not a fan of speaking in absolutes. Does he bear the majority of the responsibility. Perhaps not, thats up for debate. But to say he has no responsibility is false.

Also, using that Bogosian gift isn't very persuasive to me. Yes Bogo made a ridiculously bad play.
That play is not indicative of how a player plays. Bogo has warts, there are many plays you could have pointed. But pointed to a gaffe like that doesn't tell me much.
I think the issue people have with Buff on D (I don't necessarily agree with them always) is that his mistakes are not gaffes. They are not flukes. They are instead evidence of how he actually plays the position.

Mathematically both Kane and Halischuck are closer to Vinny than Buff.

Also not sure what that means ^^
The issue with Buff there is not necessarily his proximity at the time the puck is shot. Mathematically I mean.

Anyways, like I said I'm lazy and watching football.

 

[BigZ65]

When was the last time Buff wasn't always matched up against the other teams best line? Seems he's always had some of the toughest assignments and hasn't had many opportunities against weaker lines.

The only problem I have with Buff at forward is he doesn't create as much havoc offensively. I mean with a healthy lineup im not against him at forward, but that doesn't mean I think he's better there.

He's made more of a positive impact in less games at defense this year then at forward.

Fully agree with this. Byfuglien should be playing sheltered 3rd pairing minutes on D and QBing the PP. He's very average as a forward with some good moments when he actually gets the puck, which he struggles to do because he's usually a half-second behind the play on the forecheck, he's dependent on his linemates to gain possession. He gets the puck a hell of a lot more playing D, and that's when he is effective. He stinks without the puck at F or D.

 

[JetsFan815]

Theres a lot in the post above mine, so of which I agree with some of which I don't.

I'm not going to respond to the whole thing because frankly I'm lazy. But saying Buff had 0 to do with last nights loss is wrong. I'm not a fan of speaking in absolutes. Does he bear the majority of the responsibility. Perhaps not, thats up for debate. But to say he has no responsibility is false.

Also, using that Bogosian gift isn't very persuasive to me. Yes Bogo made a ridiculously bad play.
That play is not indicative of how a player plays. Bogo has warts, there are many plays you could have pointed. But pointed to a gaffe like that doesn't tell me much.
I think the issue people have with Buff on D (I don't necessarily agree with them always) is that his mistakes are not gaffes. They are not flukes. They are instead evidence of how he actually plays the position.




Also not sure what that means ^^
The issue with Buff there is not necessarily his proximity at the time the puck is shot. Mathematically I mean.

Anyways, like I said I'm lazy and watching football.

Saying that "Buff had 0 to do with the loss" is a statement made on a relative scale. Just by being on ice every player had **something** to do with the loss, one can argue that anyone even in the vicinity contributed to the loss... if Charlie Huddy hadn't talked to the players before that faceoff than maybe Lowery postions his wrist slightly differently during that faceoff causing the puck to go a **slightly** different angle, causing the Flyers player/Harrison to push the puck at a slightly different angle... causing the puck to never trickle out of Vinny... causing the tying goal to never happen and... you know where I'm going with this. But in all practicality when you think about all the things that contributed to the loss... Buff's contribution is towards the very low end of the spectrum esp if you weigh in the net positive he brought to the game.

Showing the Bogo gif is not a dig at Bogo but making a point that if you look hard enough you can find bad plays even by the supposed "defensive defenseman". If I had enough time I could probably point out a bogo mistake for every Buff mistake. The point here is that opinions based largely on anecdotes in an event rich game like hockey cannot be trusted. People who ignore mountains of statistical evidence that points out how Buff is clearly the most valuable defenseman on this team becuase they believe "you can't win with someone like that" do so at their own peril. People think that their senses are infallible but human senses cannot be trusted beyond a certain point. In a game like hockely where there could be 20 different interactions between players happening at the same time every second and any one of those interactions could be the difference between winning and losing, it is a terrible idea to ignore the statistical evidence.

Jet mentioned that he expected Buff to do something in that play to stop Vinny and looking at that gif it is not clear to me what he could have possible done. Some might say that he somehow should have had the forsight to move in the direction of the slot rather than supporting Harrison but that's just the benefit of hindsight. When I assign blame to a player for a bad play I try to find some evidence of bad decisionmaking and I see none in that specific play on part of Buff. And if indeed someone is going to hold Buff responsible for that play then Kane and Halischuck are **atleast** responsible due to the same degree considering their position on the ice during that goal

 

[wpgsilver]

Saying that "Buff had 0 to do with the loss" is a statement made on a relative scale. Just by being on ice every player had **something** to do with the loss, one can argue that anyone even in the vicinity contributed to the loss... if Charlie Huddy hadn't talked to the players before that faceoff than maybe Lowery postions his wrist slightly differently during that faceoff causing the puck to go a **slightly** different angle, causing the Flyers player/Harrison to push the puck at a slightly different angle... causing the puck to never trickle out of Vinny... causing the tying goal to never happen and... you know where I'm going with this. But in all practicality when you think about all the things that contributed to the loss... Buff's contribution is towards the very low end of the spectrum esp if you weigh in the net positive he brought to the game.

On a relative scale I still fail to see how you can assign no blame. Which you've now doubled down on. Did Buff pinch leading to the first goal? Sure lets say someone should have covered for him, but at absolves him of all blame? If thats the case the ONLY person who can ever be blamed is the goalie since IF the goalie does their job there won't be a goal. (And yes it is hilarious that is how this place generally operates with Pavs.) I really don't understand how you can argue that Buff is equally at fault as every other Jet. He's a valuable player, and likely our MVP this season BUT in that particular game he was a contributing factor to the lose to a greater extent than nearly all other Jets.

Showing the Bogo gif is not a dig at Bogo but making a point that if you look hard enough you can find bad plays even by the supposed "defensive defenseman". If I had enough time I could probably point out a bogo mistake for every Buff mistake. The point here is that opinions based largely on anecdotes in an event rich game like hockey cannot be trusted. People who ignore mountains of statistical evidence that points out how Buff is clearly the most valuable defenseman on this team becuase they believe "you can't win with someone like that" do so at their own peril. People think that their senses are infallible but human senses cannot be trusted beyond a certain point. In a game like hockely where there could be 20 different interactions between players happening at the same time every second and any one of those interactions could be the difference between winning and losing, it is a terrible idea to ignore the statistical evidence.

This doesn't address my point at all.
The issue with Buff, at least in the view of many, is that his approach to the position is the issue. Not the execution.
Because of that approach he is open to more criticism. People will say Stuart sucks, but everyone understands that its based on physical limitations. And you can't get to mad at the player in that circumstance, he is doing all he can.
With regards to Buff, there are no physical limitations, like none. The issue is that his approach is one of high risk and high reward. And to Buff's credit, he will far more often achieve the high reward than the succumb to the high risk. BUT that does not mean that when his risky plays bite him he is immune from criticism. The pinch in the first was a poor play. He has to be aware of who is on the ice and realize that if a forward doesn't cover (and even if they do) the number 1 and number 2 scorers in the league were on the ice. As a result of his pinch, those two had a two on one.

As for your third point, I was mainly poking fun at your use of the word mathematical.

 

[garret9]

Well, Bogo struggled last year very admittedly and has been very good defensively this year.

Trouba is a sophomore and should not be held to the same standard as an NHL veteran defender.

Both of them are about a million times better at defending and making smart pinches.

whatever the reason and whatever areas one may have better than the other, it's not causing them to be better where it counts.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Completely disagree.

Don't see that as sensible at all, IMO.

Edit: my vote would be to return Buff to forward and pp specialist. Able to fill in on d when needed, like now.

Bogo, and at times Trouba, has been given the tough match-ups and assignments for past couple of years. There's a reason for that.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. That is based on the assumption that Buff moves back to D permanently. My preference would be the same as yours. Moving Buff back to D permanently creates too many roster problems.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

There is absolutely nothing sensible about trading Bogosian. Jets don't have enough good defenseman as it is and you want to trade a young top 4 who happens to be signed long term. Teams virtually never trade away young top 4 defenseman since most teams are just happy to find them.

How do you propose to fit Buff back on D? We don't need 3 top 2 RHD. Are you going to sit Postma? That is a waste. Give Trouba 3rd pair minutes? Also a waste. Trade Bogo for an equivalent LHD. Same net number and quality of D but then we would have 2 left and 2 right in our top 4. I know that isn't necessarily easy but that would be the most logical goal.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I sometimes wonder if Buff had never been a forward before, like when he was with Chicago that there would ever be a question regarding where he should play.

If he had been a D from the beginning when he broke in with Chicago and he was never switched to FW would people just look at him as just strictly as he is what he is.

Like does anyone look at Karlsson or Subban and say maybe we should try them at forward because they sometimes have errors when they get burned as a defenseman. No I don't think so, but with Buff people do because he played as a FW before

Interesting point but then you have to ask why Chicago played him at F.

 

[garret9]

I still think buff would be p-good on the left side. He rovers anyways.

 

[Grind]

Pomos presser, to me, hinted that there's a better chance of him staying at d then we may have first thought. "The byduglien I've seen on d is not the player I saw tape of" were his words and they were delivered in a "positive" way.

Pomo also stressed that on the first pinch a forward was just as responsible for buff because they didn't cover for him and shoukd have known that was their role.

At the end of the day i care about winning.

I don't give two ***** how any player plays from a style/effort/etc position, as long as they increase our likelihood of winning.

Buff does that from a statistical standpoint. I also do not see him to be nearly as bad at what he IS admittedly bad at for the idea that he's a net negative to holdwater.

If he was that bad, it would have a risidual effect in SOME reliable statistic. I refuse to believe he could somehow be impacting the game in a negative way so dramatically different that no modern statistic is able to capture his effect.


That's too much of a leap of faith

 

[Hobby Bull]

I've got to weigh in here.

I think it's easy to pick a snap-shot to remember, and allow that to justify a narrative about a player, but that stretches objectivity thinner than using a one-game save percentage to evaluate a goalie.

There are numbers available that are a fairer test of a player's performance than, "Oh, did you see those plays?"

It's even more remarkable to pick apart a pinball play like Lecavalier's goal, and use that as an example of anything at all. I've heard it used here as an example of the reason Harrison is prone to huge break-downs, Pav's inability to stop a shot, and Byfuglien's lazy carelessness. Wow. All that?

I think it's reasonable to look at the big picture.

Would you rather be playing with him, or against him?

You could as easily look at Byfuglien's goal, and marvel not only at his skill, but also be aware that no Flyer was willing to get in his way. I like that.