Buffon vs. Neuer

[Luigi Habs]

Well, not quite.

I forgot he didn't win a CL

He said that he went to a psychologist because of depression for a full year after they lost the CL final vs Milan in 2003-2004.

 

[cgf]

You realize that Neuer comes so far out and plays the ball to prevent attacks, not because he's bored, right buddy? A goal keeper's job is to prevent goals, and Neuer's sweeping has erased countless openings that would've become 1-on-1's against any other keeper.

 

[Ceremony]

You realize that Neuer comes so far out and plays the ball to prevent attacks, not because he's bored, right buddy? A goal keeper's job is to prevent goals, and Neuer's sweeping has erased countless openings that would've become 1-on-1's against any other keeper.

I'd fine him every time he left his box.

 

[cgf]

I'd fine him every time he left his box.

And you'd concede a lot more goals because of it; while making him worse at his job.

 

[Vipers31]

This recent infatuation with the concept of the 'sweeper-keeper' can be blamed entirely on him.

Well, sure. Just like the "infatuation" with the butterfly can be entirely blamed on Esposito/Roy. It's a logical step in the evolution of a position that hadn't evolved for too long, and makes the player in the position more important and impactful. He stops attacks 9/10 times that would have a 1/2-ish convesion rate. It's a huge asset. It's by far the most effective way to play the position, so of course people are infatuated with it.

Goalkeepers are for stopping shots, not having a wander (...)

By that definition, you should propose that goalies don't leave their goalline on corners, either, because they are their to stop shots, not grab crosses. Neuer prevents highest-caliber shots before they happen.

I'd fine him every time he left his box.

You might as well fine Messi for every time he uses his "off" foot to score.

 

[Ceremony]

Well, sure. Just like the "infatuation" with the butterfly can be entirely blamed on Esposito/Roy. It's a logical step in the evolution of a position that hadn't evolved for too long, and makes the player in the position more important and impactful. He stops attacks 9/10 times that would have a 1/2-ish convesion rate. It's a huge asset. It's by far the most effective way to play the position, so of course people are infatuated with it.

I don't think the comparison to hockey is applicable. There's football teams at various levels for which a less... fluid player in goal would be beneficial to their style of play. Having Neuer playing so high up the pitch so often - what a phrase! - also necessitates the rest of the team being able to play with that style in mind. I think it's less likely to find a team of players who can play with a goalkeeper like that than it is to find a truly effective type of goalkeeper. I don't think that's comparable to butterfly goaltending which is essentially just a more efficient way of moving your body to stop shots.

I am firmly against the trapezium behind the goal in the NHL however, if you'd like to crank up your incredulity at my views.

By that definition, you should propose that goalies don't leave their goalline on corners, either, because they are their to stop shots, not grab crosses. Neuer prevents highest-caliber shots before they happen.

Well that's just silly. Plus I already implied anything he does in his box is fair game.

You might as well fine Messi for every time he uses his "off" foot to score.

Lionel's brilliant, he can do what he likes. Although he would have been given a stern talking to over his tattoos.

 

[Deficient Mode]

I don't think the comparison to hockey is applicable. There's football teams at various levels for which a less... fluid player in goal would be beneficial to their style of play. Having Neuer playing so high up the pitch so often - what a phrase! - also necessitates the rest of the team being able to play with that style in mind. I think it's less likely to find a team of players who can play with a goalkeeper like that than it is to find a truly effective type of goalkeeper. I don't think that's comparable to butterfly goaltending which is essentially just a more efficient way of moving your body to stop shots.

The goalkeeper goes that far up the pitch because the rest of the team is also that far up the pitch, not the other way around. He's compensating for the space they leave behind by beating any opposing forward to a long ball if the other team tries to counter that way. It allows the rest of the team to pin the other team in their own half. It would be far more dangerous if he stayed in his penalty area. In this sport you have a better chance of beating the forward to the ball than of stopping him if he has time to compose himself and shoot.

Of course, sweeping is irrelevant if you park the bus. That doesn't mean there isn't a huge advantage to keepers being active in play.

 

[cgf]

No team would benefit from giving up more preventable scoring-chances. It doesn't require anything from the team in front of him, it gives to them.

The butterfly comparison is perfectly fine; the butterfly made goalies a lot better at preventing goals, as does Neuer's sweeping.

How is the corner comparison any more silly than drawing arbitrary lines around the area of the pitch Neuer should be stopping goals from?

And finally: Neuer's brilliant, he to can do what he likes.

 

[Vipers31]

I don't think the comparison to hockey is applicable. There's football teams at various levels for which a less... fluid player in goal would be beneficial to their style of play.

The comparision isn't perfectly applicable on every level, but that's not the reason, and no, there isn't a single team that would benefit from a goalie that doesn't have that dimension to his game. It's not like Neuer can't control his runs. If there's less space between him and the defense, he's just more selective with his runs. Even generally defensive teams sometimes get caught on counters, and Neuer's ability would help even those teams on long balls there. There's no downside.

Having Neuer playing so high up the pitch so often - what a phrase! - also necessitates the rest of the team being able to play with that style in mind.

Not at all. He's just the best safety net imagineable.

I think it's less likely to find a team of players who can play with a goalkeeper like that than it is to find a truly effective type of goalkeeper.

You'll not find a single player that believes playing with Neuer is more difficult. He makes everything easier for his teammates. While others have to think about playing a pass back to their goalie so that it would run wide and by no means gets to his off foot, defenders don't have to worry about anything with Neuer.

I don't think that's comparable to butterfly goaltending which is essentially just a more efficient way of moving your body to stop shots.

And Neuer's sweeper-keeping is a more efficient way of not allowing goals in that game. As a hockey goalie I don't believe the two to be much similar beyond, but they're somewhat revolutionary approaches to play the position more effectively.

Well that's just silly. Plus I already implied anything he does in his box is fair game.

On what level is that silly? You don't want him to break up attacks because you want him to just stop shots. Why would it be limited to the box? That's where it's easy for the goalie, but if one masters it outside of it, why take that huge advantage away?

Lionel's brilliant, he can do what he likes.

Like cgf said - Neuer is brilliant, he can continue being the best in his ways.

 

[Ceremony]

The goalkeeper goes that far up the pitch because the rest of the team is also that far up the pitch, not the other way around. He's compensating for the space they leave behind by beating any opposing forward to a long ball if the other team tries to counter that way. It allows the rest of the team to pin the other team in their own half. It would be far more dangerous if he stayed in his penalty area. In this sport you have a better chance of beating the forward to the ball than of stopping him if he has time to compose himself and shoot.

Of course, sweeping is irrelevant if you park the bus. That doesn't mean there isn't a huge advantage to keepers being active in play.

No team would benefit from giving up more preventable scoring-chances. It doesn't require anything from the team in front of him, it gives to them.

The butterfly comparison is perfectly fine; the butterfly made goalies a lot better at preventing goals, as does Neuer's sweeping.

How is the corner comparison any more silly than drawing arbitrary lines around the area of the pitch Neuer should be stopping goals from?

And finally: Neuer's brilliant, he to can do what he likes.

The comparision isn't perfectly applicable on every level, but that's not the reason, and no, there isn't a single team that would benefit from a goalie that doesn't have that dimension to his game. It's not like Neuer can't control his runs. If there's less space between him and the defense, he's just more selective with his runs. Even generally defensive teams sometimes get caught on counters, and Neuer's ability would help even those teams on long balls there. There's no downside.


Not at all. He's just the best safety net imagineable.


You'll not find a single player that believes playing with Neuer is more difficult. He makes everything easier for his teammates. While others have to think about playing a pass back to their goalie so that it would run wide and by no means gets to his off foot, defenders don't have to worry about anything with Neuer.


And Neuer's sweeper-keeping is a more efficient way of not allowing goals in that game. As a hockey goalie I don't believe the two to be much similar beyond, but they're somewhat revolutionary approaches to play the position more effectively.


On what level is that silly? You don't want him to break up attacks because you want him to just stop shots. Why would it be limited to the box? That's where it's easy for the goalie, but if one masters it outside of it, why take that huge advantage away?


Like cgf said - Neuer is brilliant, he can continue being the best in his ways.

I'm sure it's nice having seen this boy win a World Cup for your country, but it's important that you know that what he does is bad and wrong.

And that he'll never look this good:

 

[Deficient Mode]

Arch-reactionary troll Ceremony strikes again

 

[Vipers31]

Okay, I'll go there - Buffon isn't even that good looking.

 

[cgf]

There's good and bad to everyone's game, but you haven't mentioned anything that's actually bad about Neuer.

Okay, I'll go there - Buffon isn't even that good looking.

He does look a little rodent-y below the nose...

 

[Deficient Mode]

Okay, I'll go there - Buffon isn't even that good looking.

Damn. It's true though. He doesn't have Neuer's muscles either.

 

[Cassano]

You realize that Neuer comes so far out and plays the ball to prevent attacks, not because he's bored, right buddy? A goal keeper's job is to prevent goals, and Neuer's sweeping has erased countless openings that would've become 1-on-1's against any other keeper.

Neuer has the easiest job in the world as a keeper. I don't blame him for going up even if he's bored.

 

[Vipers31]

Neuer has the easiest job in the world as a keeper.

That's almost as wrong as Edo saying Boateng had the easiest job as a defender. You know what's easy for a goalkeeper? Neuer's former job for Schalke when they were outplayed like crazy in CL games, facing shot after shot. That's actually easy. Ask any goalie. Virtually exclusively facing (outnumbered) counter attacks is the least uncomfortable the keeper job gets. Getting Neuer's responsibilities in buildup play on top make it closer to the hardest job than to the easiest.

 

[les Habs]

That's almost as wrong as Edo saying Boateng had the easiest job as a defender. You know what's easy for a goalkeeper? Neuer's former job for Schalke when they were outplayed like crazy in CL games, facing shot after shot. That's actually easy. Ask any goalie. Virtually exclusively facing (outnumbered) counter attacks is the least uncomfortable the keeper job gets. Getting Neuer's responsibilities in buildup play on top make it closer to the hardest job than to the easiest.

While I wouldn't call facing shot after shot easy, I know what you're saying and I agree with the rest of it. When your team enjoys that much possession match after match and in a lot of those matches you only face so many shots, that can be difficult as you have to maintain your concentration. Only thing I would add in your reply is that in addition to everything you noted, Neuer isn't just going up because he's "bored." It's a tactical element and not just the whim of a player with too much time on his hands.

 

[JunglePete]

I'm sure it's nice having seen this boy win a World Cup for your country, but it's important that you know that what he does is bad and wrong.

And that he'll never look this good:

Lol Neuer is better looking than Buffon

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

While I wouldn't call facing shot after shot easy, I know what you're saying and I agree with the rest of it. When your team enjoys that much possession match after match and in a lot of those matches you only face so many shots, that can be difficult as you have to maintain your concentration. Only thing I would add in your reply is that in addition to everything you noted, Neuer isn't just going up because he's "bored." It's a tactical element and not just the whim of a player with too much time on his hands.

People mentally stuck in yesteryear don't understand that goalkeepers playing like Neuer are making it much easier for teams to dominate possession and press high to regain the ball. They just see the occasional faux pas of a goalie being caught out of position or making a mistake on the ball but then wonder why top coaches are desperate for goalkeepers who play like that. (Hint: Being able to play a winning tactic consistently over a season means more than 1-2 goals conceded per season because of mix-ups).

 

[cgf]

You all are just getting caught up in a silly fad; like when cowards started resorting to passing the ball. Real goalkeepers stay on their line at all times and wait to face a 1-on-1s.

They sure as **** don't play the ball; if it's passed back to them they just let it roll into their nets like men.

 

[Corto]

It's funny that half the posts are about who's better looking.

Anyway, interesting thread.

Buffon will have a massive legacy and could be considered the best goalkeeper of all time when all is said in done, definitely in the tier with the Yashins and Schmeichels.

But... Neuer, depending on his longevity, definitely has a chance to reach that same tier.
Guy is scary on the pitch, and has the best awareness on when to come out and help out his defence that I've ever seen.

 

[Power Man]

I hate Neuer , if it wasn't for him taking risks, we would have scored a couple of goals against Germany