Speculation: Buffalo Trading up in the Draft

[Jame]

I was sitting there wondering if I should do an "in before Jame reminds us all again that goalies don't matter."

And I didn't do it. But I should probably start.

i'll take that opening... thanks

individual goalies don't matter on contenders
- Chicago and Boston are back in the finals with different goalies...
- Pittsburgh made 2 runs with Fluery when their D was stacked and they had depth down the middle (scuderi, gonchar, gill, staal, talbot)
- Detroit made runs with anyone in goal, when they were deep at forward and had the best defensemen ever
- Even Quick in LA didn't really emerge until LA built their center depth with trades and Doughty started developing into a true #1

Franchise Goalies are on the way out... the sooner our organization realizes that and begins investing more prudently, the better...

Chicago is at the top of the NHL, and they have been able to stay there because they let their Cup Winning Goalie walk... they just let him go. And it was the right move. They are at the top, because they are ahead of the curve.

 

[sonnEbunny]

I've actually played goalie for a decade. And I offered up the stat sheet for objectivity's sake, but in terms of style, Tim Thomas is far more reactive, creative, and consistent. Minus the ecto-medial frame, he's about as close to a Hasek as this generation has gotten.

Yea I've played it for about 18 years, played in college for 2 years..let me re-phrase that I was on the team for two years saw very little playing time(3 games). Torn groin put an end to my competitive hockey days. Regardless I know the position and I would like to know if you can demonstrate how Thomas is better than Miller. Miller started over Thomas during the Olympics and it's not like Miller started over him 8 years ago, this was right in-between his Vezina seasons.

 

[sonnEbunny]

your book is at a 3rd grade reading level

Feel free to switch the words around if you would like.

I do agree with your points that a stud goalie is far less important now than what it was in the past which is why I hope they trade Miller. I'm pretty excited for Hackett and I would like to see what Enroth has as well. However, Miller>Tim Thomas

(If you want to have a literature competition just let me know, we can both write short stories and compare)

 

[Jame]

Yea I've played it for about 18 years, played in college for 2 years..let me re-phrase that I was on the team for two years saw very little playing time(3 games). Torn groin put an end to my competitive hockey days. Regardless I know the position and I would like to know if you can demonstrate how Thomas is better than Miller. Miller started over Thomas during the Olympics and it's not like Miller started over him 8 years ago, this was right in-between his Vezina seasons.

You've hung your entire argument on one coaching staffs choice at one moment in time?

goalies run hot... Miller was hot/having a vezina season... if the Olympics were the previous or following year, it would have been Thomas starting

 

[gallagt01]

Yea I've played it for about 18 years, played in college for 2 years..let me re-phrase that I was on the team for two years saw very little playing time(3 games). Torn groin put an end to my competitive hockey days. Regardless I know the position and I would like to know if you can demonstrate how Thomas is better than Miller. Miller started over Thomas during the Olympics and it's not like Miller started over him 8 years ago, this was right in-between his Vezina seasons.

I've yet to see you provide any analysis as to why Miller is a better goalie than Thomas.

I don't care that you've played the position for 18 years. Why is Miller superior?

 

[sabresandcanucks]

i'll take that opening... thanks

individual goalies don't matter on contenders
- Chicago and Boston are back in the finals with different goalies...
- Pittsburgh made 2 runs with Fluery when their D was stacked and they had depth down the middle (scuderi, gonchar, gill, staal, talbot)
- Detroit made runs with anyone in goal, when they were deep at forward and had the best defensemen ever
- Even Quick in LA didn't really emerge until LA built their center depth with trades and Doughty started developing into a true #1

Franchise Goalies are on the way out... the sooner our organization realizes that and begins investing more prudently, the better...

Chicago is at the top of the NHL, and they have been able to stay there because they let their Cup Winning Goalie walk... they just let him go. And it was the right move. They are at the top, because they are ahead of the curve.

Agree...kind of,

I don't think a franchise goaltender is required to win a cup, like you have said, but I do think you need a goaltender who won't cost you a series.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

You've hung your entire argument on one coaching staffs choice at one moment in time?

Especially because Thomas got hip surgery after that season. Then promptly won the Vezina/Smythe the next year.

 

[Paxon]

i'll take that opening... thanks

individual goalies don't matter on contenders
- Chicago and Boston are back in the finals with different goalies...
- Pittsburgh made 2 runs with Fluery when their D was stacked and they had depth down the middle (scuderi, gonchar, gill, staal, talbot)
- Detroit made runs with anyone in goal, when they were deep at forward and had the best defensemen ever
- Even Quick in LA didn't really emerge until LA built their center depth with trades and Doughty started developing into a true #1

Franchise Goalies are on the way out... the sooner our organization realizes that and begins investing more prudently, the better...

Chicago is at the top of the NHL, and they have been able to stay there because they let their Cup Winning Goalie walk... they just let him go. And it was the right move. They are at the top, because they are ahead of the curve.

Lidstrom is the best defenseman ever???

Edit: nevermind, you said "defensemen". Not sure about that, either.

 

[enthusiast]

I've yet to see you provide any analysis as to why Miller is a better goalie than Thomas.

I don't care that you've played the position for 18 years. Why is Miller superior?

He's had to slum it with this **** franchise his entire career while Thomas played behind arguably the consistently best defensive team assembled post lockout

 

[enthusiast]

Lidstrom is the best defenseman ever???

I could see an incredibly specific argument made for that

 

[sonnEbunny]

Positioning, angles, ability to read a play (hockey sense), extremely efficient with movements, strong in the bottom foot of the net where 80% of goals are scored in the NHL. Tim Thomas has better reactions and is more acrobatic/athletic.

 

[enthusiast]

ESSV%

Thomas v Miller

.927 v .922
.947 v .924
.913 v .928
.940 v .927
.933 v .915
.920 v .928

What do we see here, other than the fact that Miller wins significantly once and loses significantly three times? Wild fluctuations on the part of Thomas. Miller's range is .013 over this span. Thomas' is .034! Let's assume Thomas' sudden emergence after years of nondescript performance isn't aided by PEDs. Could it, perhaps, be linked to the strong play of an excellent defensive team and scheme in front of him? Possibly. How do we account for his huge drop between Vezina years, though? Frankly, I'm not sure. It's just odd.

Note that Miller is pretty much the same, for better or worse, over that span. Fluctuations happen but nowhere near the jumps Thomas exhibits.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

ESSV%

Thomas v Miller

.927 v .922
.947 v .924
.913 v .928
.940 v .927
.933 v .915
.920 v .928

What do we see here, other than the fact that Miller wins significantly once and loses significantly three times? Wild fluctuations on the part of Thomas. Miller's range is .013 over this span. Thomas' is .034! Let's assume Thomas' sudden emergence after years of nondescript performance isn't aided by PEDs. Could it, perhaps, be linked to the strong play of an excellent defensive team and scheme in front of him? Possibly. How do we account for his huge drop between Vezina years, though? Frankly, I'm not sure. It's just odd.

Note that Miller is pretty much the same, for better or worse, over that span. Fluctuations happen but nowhere near the jumps Thomas exhibits.

The hip surgery he got at the end of the 2010 season that I already brought up?

 

[sonnEbunny]

All that I'm trying to say is that stats do show the skill of a goalie. ex. Just because Kunitz has the 7th most points in the NHL doesn't mean he is the 7th best player. He is the result of a system and the players around him. He is not a bad player but he would not put up those numbers in Buffalo much like Thomas wouldn't have had those same numbers in Buffalo.

 

[enthusiast]

The hip surgery he got at the end of the 2010 season that I already brought up?

Thomas maintains that his run-of-the-mill wear-and-tear injury didn't affect his play in 09-10 any more than it did in 08-09.

I had about two years there where I could only recover [after making a save] with one leg

 

[dotcommunism]

I think if you're arguing that goaltenders are fundamentally interchangeable with there being no such thing as "good goalies" or "bad goalies", then you need to provide some solid statistical analysis backing up that conclusion, rather than simply providing anecdotal data.

 

[enthusiast]

Since we're already talking about Boston, here they are as an example:

Bruins Goaltending:

2007-2008
Thomas: .921 in ~55
Auld: .919 in 25

2008-2009
Thomas: .933 in 55
Manny Fernandez lol: .910 in 25
Rask: 1.000 in 1

2009-2010
Thomas: .915 in 45
Rask: .931 in 40

2010-2011
Thomas: .938 in 55
Rask: .918 in 27

2011-2012
Thomas: .920 in 55
Rask: .929 in 25
yes THAT Marty Turco :.855 in 5
Khudobin: .978 in 1

2012-2013
Rask: .929 in 35
Khudobin: .920 in 15


Either Boston dressed four high-end goalies in a six-year span or the team has something to do with it.

 

[Jame]

Positioning, angles, ability to read a play (hockey sense), extremely efficient with movements, strong in the bottom foot of the net where 80% of goals are scored in the NHL. Tim Thomas has better reactions and is more acrobatic/athletic.

right, so all you've got are a bunch of subjective statements...

i'd also love to know where you came up with that 80% figure...

 

[Jame]

Lidstrom is the best defenseman ever???

Edit: nevermind, you said "defensemen". Not sure about that, either.

yes, Lidstrom is the best defensemen ever

 

[1972]

Bobby Orr says hi

 

[Jame]

Agree...kind of,

I don't think a franchise goaltender is required to win a cup, like you have said, but I do think you need a goaltender who won't cost you a series.

i think the hot/cold nature of goaltenders makes that difficult to mitigate against... Look at Crawford last year vs this year.... Rask 2 years ago vs this year...Miller vs Philly... Fleury with a great defense = finals... with a diminished defense he costs you a series.

Did Quick cost LA a series this year? He had some softies... and other than this last series he's been stone cold the previous 6 series.

I've never advocated for running with Patrick Lalime after you've put a good team together... instead, I prefer a stable of young goaltenders competing for starts... always competing..... and NEVER, EVER signing any of them to big money and/or long term deals. EVER.

 

[Jame]

Bobby Orr says hi

I'll take Lidstrom, you can keep the nostalgia

 

[enthusiast]

I'll take Lidstrom, you can keep the nostalgia

please go to HoH and start a thread about this

I'm not being facetious it would be fun as hell to read

 

[Paxon]

yes, Lidstrom is the best defensemen ever

Now I'm not sure if this is a sarcastic response or not.

He may have had arguably the best career ever with all things considered, but the best defenseman ever?

I'll take Lidstrom, you can keep the nostalgia

Well that answers the sarcasm question. It's not nostalgia, especially when I wasn't even alive at the time and I'll assume Darcy Regier the HF poster probably wasn't either.

Look at the numbers, and I'm not just talking points. Look at anything. He was the most dominating player in the league during his career and up until Wayne Gretzky not many would argue Bobby Orr wasn't the best ever. After Wayne Gretzky many still argue Bobby Orr was the best ever.

Bobby Orr dominated the league at both ends. You can make an argument about how his style of play was more prepared for in Lidstrom's time and argue about how athletes get better every generation, etc... but that's not what people really have in mind when they argue these things. Bobby Orr was considerably better relative to the league than Lidstrom was and I chance to say he'd have still been clearly better than Lidstrom if he played over the same period.

Lidstrom had a longer career. Kudos to the man, it was amazing and he's one of my favorite players ever. I'm no fan of that being an argument for who was better, though. Brodeur isn't even in Hasek's conversation in my book yet he has the longevity.

 

[Jame]

Now I'm not sure if this is a sarcastic response or not.

He may have had arguably the best career ever with all things considered, but the best defenseman ever?



Well that answers the sarcasm question. It's not nostalgia, especially when I wasn't even alive at the time and I'll assume Darcy Regier the HF poster probably wasn't either.

Look at the numbers, and I'm not just talking points. Look at anything. He was the most dominating player in the league during his career and up until Wayne Gretzky not many would argue Bobby Orr wasn't the best ever. After Wayne Gretzky many still argue Bobby Orr was the best ever.

Bobby Orr dominated the league at both ends. You can make an argument about how his style of play was more prepared for in Lidstrom's time and argue about how athletes get better every generation, etc... but that's not what people really have in mind when they argue these things. Bobby Orr was considerably better relative to the league than Lidstrom was and I chance to say he'd have still been clearly better than Lidstrom if he played over the same period.

Lidstrom had a longer career. Kudos to the man, it was amazing and he's one of my favorite players ever. I'm no fan of that being an argument for who was better, though. Brodeur isn't even in Hasek's conversation in my book yet he has the longevity.

Carl Lewis was the best sprinter in the world at one time... and he would come in last place in a 100m race today.

Im not much for nostalgia