Post-Game Talk: Bruins 4, Penguins 3 - Roster is Fine, They Just Need to Do More and Try Harder

[NewAgeOutlaw]

I have to think at this point that this is a case of extreme fatigue with a bit of complacency. 2 very long postseason appearances in a row and a crazy early schedule with countless back to backs.

The roster is lacking compared to last year, but it is not nearly as bad as their performance on the ice. They need to find a way to get their level of play to where it needs to be.

Edit: gotta agree with the post above regarding Hagelin. He gets endless excuses from this fanbase because he is fast. A good player for sure, but in the end he is a one tool guy who is best used in the bottom six where his speed can benefit his linemates the most.

 

[WayneSid9987]

How do you get him in the bottom 6?
You acquire an upper echelon LW'er. Thats how!
JR/Ventura time to put the thinking caps on boys!

 

[ColePens]

I have to think at this point that this is a case of extreme fatigue with a bit of complacency. 2 very long postseason appearances in a row and a crazy early schedule with countless back to backs.

The roster is lacking compared to last year, but it is not nearly as bad as their performance on the ice. They need to find a way to get their level of play to where it needs to be.

Edit: gotta agree with the post above regarding Hagelin. He gets endless excuses from this fanbase because he is fast. A good player for sure, but in the end he is a one tool guy who is best used in the bottom six where his speed can benefit his linemates the most.

I don't think Hags has gotten a pass this year. In fact - the only words I see describe him are such: Awful, disappointing, terrible, god awful, etc.

 

[Gurglesons]

But you said it would be all due to 3C/4C. You did not say it would be team focus and Letang/Sid. In fact - nobody said that. At all. I love when people try to claim it.

Actually, I said losing our two depth centers would effect our wingers scoring ability as they saw bumps in their production by playing with Bonino and Cullen.

Kuhn, Hags, Wilson, Archi were all slated as 20-30+ guys over the summer.

People thought we had the best depth in the league and I consistently pointed to Tampa and Toronto.

Hm.

 

[ColePens]

Actually, I said losing our two depth centers would effect our wingers scoring ability as they saw bumps in their production by playing with Bonino and Cullen.

Kuhn, Hags, Wilson, Archi were all slated as 20-30+ guys over the summer.

People thought we had the best depth in the league and I consistently pointed to Tampa and Toronto.

Hm.

So the lack of focus (problem #1) and Sid/Letang (problem #2) are directly correlated to what you said? I think not. Scratch that one off your list. People made comments about a lack of focus through the first ten, but nobody called this.

You are trying to cherry pick the issues and you are trying to say you are right when you aren't. And who in the f***ing world slated Archi or Kuhn as 20-30.

 

[Gurglesons]

So the lack of focus (problem #1) and Sid/Letang (problem #2) are directly correlated to what you said? I think not. Scratch that one off your list. People made comments about a lack of focus through the first ten, but nobody called this.

You are trying to cherry pick the issues and you are trying to say you are right when you aren't. And who in the ****ing world slated Archi or Kuhn as 20-30.

We can’t look past the board change, but someone prorated our team to scoring the same amount of points as we did last year despite losing Cullen and Bonino’s departure because Jake and Sheary were 60+ guys and Rust was in the 40-50s Hags was a 30+ Wilson and Kuhn were around 20, etc.

I think Sheary, Jake and Rust are all off pace too, outside of Rust who has been very limited offensively. If Maatta wasn’t compensating for Schultz’s lack of offense we’d be dead in the water.

It is okay to admit to being wrong, but I guess it is easier to focus on Crosby and Letang as the issues and some arbitrary term like “team focus”.

I think the # 1 issue is Rutherford fell in love with his roster from 15-16 which made perfect sense with how good they performed, but continued the love affair into 16-17 when it was clear that that team won despite itself due to their star players playing at their absolute peak and a rookie playing like Dino Ciccarelli reincarnated. He then proceed to expect a bunch of solid role players, but role players to carry this team when they essentially all had career seasons last year which hid many of the defensive struggles we had.

Now that is playing out. It wasn’t wrong to be critical of the Dumo and Schultz contracts like you insisted all summer, it wasn’t wrong to question our depth issues with the departure of all the players like you insisted all summer, etc.

It is okay to admit you were wrong, this Penguins team IS championship caliber in a sense, but at the same time this situation shouldn’t be surprising to anyone that actually watched the team last year and analyzed it because it is essentially an even worse version of that and why wouldn’t it be? We basically have the same roster with worse players plugged into every hole that was made.

 

[ColePens]

We can’t look past the board change, but someone prorated our team to scoring the same amount of points as we did last year despite losing Cullen and Bonino’s departure because Jake and Sheary were 60+ guys and Rust was in the 40-50s Hags was a 30+ Wilson and Kuhn were around 20, etc.

I think Sheary, Jake and Rust are all off pace too, outside of Rust who has been very limited offensively. If Maatta wasn’t compensating for Schultz’s lack of offense we’d be dead in the water.

Someone... just someone? So your maximum reference to this is one user. I honestly cannot buy the fact that people were claiming those guys would all be 20-30 pt guys. I don't even think people wanted Kuhn to be playing. Archi was an extra at best. You could have gotten away with people saying Sprong/Guentzel would be way higher. But man you stubbed your toe on that one.

Honestly it's silly to me that anyone could possibly want to claim they knew the Pens issues were coming. We all knew depth would be an issue, but it's not the top 2 issues with the team. The top 2 shouldn't even be debatable. And you never said either of those would be an issue.

If people want to stand on a mountain and scream they were right, then you and anyone else is just flat out crazy. MAYBE Rob Rossi called Sid would struggle. MAYBE someone accidentally said Letang would be so awful. Nobody expected a Sully coached team to be so unprepared so often through just about 30 games.

 

[Gurglesons]

Someone... just someone? So your maximum reference to this is one user. I honestly cannot buy the fact that people were claiming those guys would all be 20-30 pt guys. I don't even think people wanted Kuhn to be playing. Archi was an extra at best. You could have gotten away with people saying Sprong/Guentzel would be way higher. But man you stubbed your toe on that one.

Honestly it's silly to me that anyone could possibly want to claim they knew the Pens issues were coming. We all knew depth would be an issue, but it's not the top 2 issues with the team. The top 2 shouldn't even be debatable. And you never said either of those would be an issue.

If people want to stand on a mountain and scream they were right, then you and anyone else is just flat out crazy. MAYBE Rob Rossi called Sid would struggle. MAYBE someone accidentally said Letang would be so awful. Nobody expected a Sully coached team to be so unprepared so often through just about 30 games.

I think you’re just an old school hockey guy who thinks motivation, preparedness, and will win games and I’m one who thinks that the best roster is the one with the best players and that will always win the game.

I mean, we both played hockey for 15+ years, we both love it, and both our assessments are correct. I’ll acknowledge your view point and agree that arbitrary things definitey play into a championship, maybe you can agree that replacing our bottom six of Cullen, Bonino and Kunitz and basing our top four D around two players (Olli and Schultz) that have been wildly inconsistent (Maatta) or simply playing minutes we had to give to them because of Letang (Schultz) has caused some issues.

I’m not going to sit on a mountain and scream I’m right. These were just obvious concerns and we were literally ridiculed by half this board about them. Center depth doesn’t matter to April, there is no chance we will be out of the playoffs in December, etc.

You guys were wrong. It’s okay to be wrong, but at least admit to it.

 

[ColePens]

I think you’re just an old school hockey guy who thinks motivation, preparedness, and will win games and I’m one who thinks that the best roster is the one with the best players and that will always win the game.

I mean, we both played hockey for 15+ years, we both love it, and both our assessments are correct. I’ll acknowledge your view point and agree that arbitrary things definitey play into a championship, maybe you can agree that replacing our bottom six of Cullen, Bonino and Kunitz and basing our top four D around two players (Olli and Schultz) that have been wildly inconsistent (Maatta) or simply playing minutes we had to give to them because of Letang (Schultz) has caused some issues.

Now, more than ever, the culture is just as important as the skill. Long gone are the old school days of "You do as I say!" The culture is so important. That might be the furthest thing from "Old school" that it can be.

 

[Shady Machine]

But you said it would be all due to 3C/4C. You did not say it would be team focus and Letang/Sid. In fact - nobody said that. At all. I love when people try to claim it.

Lol. Go back and read mine and pixies posts this summer. We were saying Sid and Geno would need help at center because of fatigue and two long seasons. I said several times “we need a better center than Bonino to offset the loss of he and Cullen and to help Sid/Geno deal with physical and mental fatigue”.

I also repeatedly said our wingers weren’t as good as people thought they were and that the quality of centers we had elevated our wingers. Cullen made Kuhn a good 4th line winger. That’s obvious to anyone now.

This isn’t hindsight stuff. This was my fear in the summer and many posters responded with “we have time, calm down”.

Now of course I couldn’t predict everything exactly as it happened, but in general, my concerns in the summer have largely come true.

That doesn’t make me awesome, nor does it mean my desired acquisitions were feasible or realistic, but it does mean my concerns were reasonable. Instead, I’ve been labeled a looney toon since July and now that it’s come true people acting like i said Bonino would solve all of the team’s problems

 

[ColePens]

Lol. Go back and read mine and pixies posts this summer. We were saying Sid and Geno would need help at center because of fatigue and two long seasons. I said several times “we need a better center than Bonino to offset the loss of he and Cullen and to help Sid/Geno deal with physical and mental fatigue”.

I also repeatedly said our wingers weren’t as good as people thought they were and that the quality of centers we had elevated our wingers. Cullen made Kuhn a good 4th line winger. That’s obvious to anyone now.

This isn’t hindsight stuff. This was my fear in the summer and many posters responded with “we have time, calm down”.

Now of course I couldn’t predict everything exactly as it happened, but in general, my concerns in the summer have largely come true.

That doesn’t make me awesome, nor does it mean my desired acquisitions were feasible or realistic, but it does mean my concerns were reasonable. Instead, I’ve been labeled a looney toon since July and now that it’s come true people acting like i said Bonino would solve all of the team’s problems

And we go back to simply the easiest statement of all time. If we re-sign Bones... none of this happens? All magic is off Sid/Geno? Yeah! That's it! That's the ticket. How about all the lack of focus for the entire team? Is that a Bonino-fixed situation, too? Re-sign Bones and all of this goes away. Right. Got it.

Give me the biggest break of all time. That is the definition of horse shit cherry picked bullshit.

 

[Shady Machine]

And we go back to simply the easiest statement of all time. If we re-sign Bones... none of this happens? All magic is off Sid/Geno? Yeah! That's it! That's the ticket. How about all the lack of focus for the entire team? Is that a Bonino-fixed situation, too? Re-sign Bones and all of this goes away. Right. Got it.

Give me the biggest break of all time. That is the definition of horse **** cherry picked bull****.

Haha what a joke of a response. It’s like you didn’t even read my post.

 

[ColePens]

Haha what a joke of a response. It’s like you didn’t even read my post.

Because you guys are so hell-bent on wanting to be right that you miss the issues by a country mile. Re-sign Bones. Trade Guentzel for Bennett. Don't re-sign Dumo. Trade Rust for Karlsson. And that fixes the world.

My ass.

 

[Shady Machine]

Because you guys are so hell-bent on wanting to be right that you miss the issues by a country mile. Re-sign Bones. Trade Guentzel for Bennett. Don't re-sign Dumo. Trade Rust for Karlsson. And that fixes the world.

My ass.

Nobody is saying any of that. You are consistently putting words in our mouths and arguing against them instead of what we are actually saying. It’s extremely disengenous.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Re-sign Bones.

Omg Cole, stop talking about Bonino!

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

That doesn’t make me awesome, nor does it mean my desired acquisitions were feasible or realistic, but it does mean my concerns were reasonable. Instead, I’ve been labeled a looney toon since July and now that it’s come true people acting like i said Bonino would solve all of the team’s problems

I think the bolded is exactly what the issue has been all along. You guys and Pens X made it sound like everyone who was advocating for patience didn't see an issue with the roster, or didn't have concerns. That wasn't the case.

We all knew that the Pens would need something better in the bottom six than Rowney/McKegg in order to have a chance at three-peating. The difference was the rest of us were willing to wait to see how JR addressed that before constantly complaining about it all summer long.

So if you feel like you've been labeled as crazy, it's not because you had concerns over the roster, but because you (albeit to a much lesser extent than the other two) went on and on about it and refused to take a wait and see approach to how JR would address it.

 

[ColePens]

Nobody is saying any of that. You are consistently putting words in our mouths and arguing against them instead of what we are actually saying. It’s extremely disengenous.

Those things were said to do all summer. And yes - I can quote them for you if you wish. Those are what you and Pixies wanted in the offseason. If you are claiming to be right, then your summer plan would have fixed everything.

Oh wait.. that's right. It wouldn't have. Because nobody thought a Sully coached team or a Sid/Geno led team would be this unfocused and this piss poor. Nobody thought a Sully led team would be this poor with accountability/attention to detail. Nobody thought Letang/Sid would be this bad. And it's not from center depth. Nobody saw that one. I can guarantee you that nobody on the site was blaming Sully's inability to get this team ready and focused. Because they weren't.

If the Pens were bad due to depth only. Then you can thump your chest, since that's what you want to do. If the Pens lost Geno/Sid for 10+ games already and we were losing, then you can thump your chest. They aren't.

 

[Gurglesons]

Now, more than ever, the culture is just as important as the skill. Long gone are the old school days of "You do as I say!" The culture is so important. That might be the furthest thing from "Old school" that it can be.

Disagree completely. Talent wins. It is why us and Chicago have six cups and Los Angeles and Boston have 3.

More often than not the best forward depth wins, it is why Toronto, Tampa, Columbus, Calgary and Winnipeg are killing it this year.

Funny that some one that literally saw this in action the last two years would argue this. Then again you think our defense was impressive for some reason in 16-17.

 

[Gurglesons]

Because you guys are so hell-bent on wanting to be right that you miss the issues by a country mile. Re-sign Bones. Trade Guentzel for Bennett. Don't re-sign Dumo. Trade Rust for Karlsson. And that fixes the world.

My ass.

Nobody ever said that fixes the world. We discussed trade possibilities in a thread about discussing trade possibilities?

I’ve already admitted I was wrong about Bennett multiple times. Try admitting your wrong once. It is okay.

Shady and I never saw it as a black and white issue. We just said that it was going to CAUSE issues and could result in us being out of the playoffs as soon as one of Malkin, Crosby or Kesse went down.

Quit trying to make us seem like we were dead set on Bonino saving this team. Our main argument was it made more sense to resign Bonino and deal with his contract down the line then giving up assets for a player that would like at best be Bonino.

 

[ColePens]

Disagree completely. Talent wins. It is why us and Chicago have six cups and Los Angeles and Boston have 3.

More often than not the best forward depth wins, it is why Toronto, Tampa, Columbus, Calgary and Winnipeg are killing it this year.

Funny that some one that literally saw this in action the last two years would argue this. Then again you think our defense was impressive for some reason in 16-17.

Our defense was really impressive when you think we lost Letang for half the season and all of playoffs. Every single guy played well over their head and man they did well. It sure as hell wasn't perfect and probably could never be replicated, but that unit deserves all the praise in the world.

I don't think you realize how hard it is to fill a spot that you aren't qualified for. Nobody was qualified on that team to take over Letang's minutes. Maatta dealt with coming back from his injuries. Hainsey was past his days of eating mega minutes. Dumo/Cole are playoff warriors but asked to play 2 spots up than they should have been. Daley was up/down.

Man when you really put that defense on paper and what they accomplished... Damn. Impressive. Thank you for reminding me how amazing that run was. I am sorry you couldn't see it. That's just bad analysis from you.

 

[Gurglesons]

Our defense was really impressive when you think we lost Letang for half the season and all of playoffs. Every single guy played well over their head and man they did well. It sure as hell wasn't perfect and probably could never be replicated, but that unit deserves all the praise in the world.

I don't think you realize how hard it is to fill a spot that you aren't qualified for. Nobody was qualified on that team to take over Letang's minutes. Maatta dealt with coming back from his injuries. Hainsey was past his days of eating mega minutes. Dumo/Cole are playoff warriors but asked to play 2 spots up than they should have been. Daley was up/down.

Man when you really put that defense on paper and what they accomplished... Damn. Impressive. Thank you for reminding me how amazing that run was. I am sorry you couldn't see it. That's just bad analysis from you.

No, they weren’t. The Penguins won despite their defense in 16-17 and that is how it will be written in history. Just like the Canes in 06-07.

Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised to see 16-17 defined as one of the reasons Crosby can push into the top five players of all team in the future. Him and Malkin essentially drove two teams to the finals by themselves in 08 and 2017.

 

[Shady Machine]

I think the bolded is exactly what the issue has been all along. You guys and Pens X made it sound like everyone who was advocating for patience didn't see an issue with the roster, or didn't have concerns. That wasn't the case.

We all knew that the Pens would need something better in the bottom six than Rowney/McKegg in order to have a chance at three-peating. The difference was the rest of us were willing to wait to see how JR addressed that before constantly complaining about it all summer long.

So if you feel like you've been labeled as crazy, it's not because you had concerns over the roster, but because you (albeit to a much lesser extent than the other two) went on and on about it and refused to take a wait and see approach to how JR would address it.

That’s fair. My disagreements with you have always been reasonable.

 

[ColePens]

No, they weren’t. The Penguins won despite their defense in 16-17 and that is how it will be written in history. Just like the Canes in 06-07.

Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised to see 16-17 defined as one of the reasons Crosby can push into the top five players of all team in the future. Him and Malkin essentially drove two teams to the finals by themselves in 08 and 2017.

Sorry you don't see it. You missed some amazing stuff.

 

[Gurglesons]

Sorry you don't see it. You missed some amazing stuff.

If only I could replay Bobby Ryan burning Maatta and Ron Hainsey getting stuck in the d-zone for over a minute back in my head. Or maybe our team’s disgusting break-outs or complete lack of transiston outside of Schultz and Daley.

I saw what was amazing, it was Sullivan’s Babcockian ability to play a undersized mobile defense at the right time to championship success.

Using Dumo, Maatta and Schultz as #1 defensemen in situations he knew they’d succeed was amazing. I’ll agree.

 

[Shady Machine]

I said JR made a mistake moving on from Bonino later in the summer when Warm Cookies asked me to say whether I thought it was a mistake. If you go back to my posts in May, June, and early July I never complained about moving on from
bones because I was under the impression that JR had a plan to upgrade that position in the off season. Either he did and it didn’t work out or he was always willing to be patient and wait it out.

Once I realized the wait it out approach was the one JR went with, I said it was a mistake to move on from Bones. I’m happy to be proven wrong in time on that.

Anyway, I understand if I’m annoying people with the “Im right” mantra. Thats usually not my style, but after consistently being misrepresented and having a certain poster calling me a troll, flipping out and the blocking me, I decided to try to set the record straight.

I’d prefer to get back to forward looking discussions. Carry on.