canucks4ever
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- Mar 4, 2008
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Both of them won thier respective trophies at the awards show last night. Brodeur has 4 vezinas and Lids has 6 norris trophies, how does that change thier overall rankings?
Brodeur and Lidstrom
- Thread starter canucks4ever
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Gunnar Stahl 30
...In The World!
i think the fact that lidstrom won a cup as captain of the team changes his place in history more then another norris. as for marty, this just further proves that he is an amazing goalie and it wasnt just, "the system, the great defenses...." that made him so great
Gunnar Stahl 30
...In The World!
Reds4Life
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- Dec 24, 2007
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Because Brodeur started winning his Vezinas after Roy retired and Hasek was old and definitely past his best years.
Also, he never won Hart or Pearson, Hasek won both twice.
Brodeur never won Conn Smythe, Roy has 3.
Gunnar Stahl 30
...In The World!
thats not the reason, imo, why he starting winning his vezinas. i think it was more because he lost stevens and niedermeyer and proved he really is that good, as for the conn smythes, he got robbed in 2003, but im over it and i feel the same reason he didnt win the conn smythe is the same reason he did win the vezina until stevens and nieds were gone
David Puddy
Registered User
David Puddy
Registered User
What is interesting is to compare Brodeur's first Stanley Cup Championship to Patrick Roy's first Stanley Cup Championship.
Roy won the Conn Smyth in 1986 as a Canadien. Brodeur did not win it in 1995.
Roy saved 92.3% of the 505 shots he faced that year while posting a 1.93 GAA. He went 15-5 and posted one shutout.
Martin Brodeur went 16-4, the first round having been expanded to a best-of-seven series shortly after Roy's first championship. Brodeur posted 3 SO, a 1.66 GAA and a 93.2 SV%.
Big deal you say? Maybe you remember Scotty Bowman complaining about how the trap was too difficult to break. There is no way that Brodeur faced anywhere near as many shots as Roy did back in the Go-Go 1980's.
Brodeur faced 497 shots, or 24.9 per game. That is only eight less than Roy faced or 0.4 per game.
The really interesting thing to note is that Claude Lemieux won the Conn Smythe in 1995 as a member of the Devils. Pepe had 13 G, 3 A and 16 PTS that season. He had also been a member of that 1986 Canadiens team. In the exact same number of games, Lemieux had 10 G, 6 A and 16 PTS.
Foy
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- Jun 6, 2006
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Hasek never started winning the Vezina until Ed Belfour was old and past his prime. Therefore Hasek is no where near as good as Belfour. Are you going to try to make argument?
You know why Brodeur keeps winning Vezinas? Because he is the best goaltender in the league.
Stonefly
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- Jan 29, 2007
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Same argument can be used against Lidstrom. He didn't start winning Norris' until better defensemen retired.
Gunnar Stahl 30
...In The World!
....interesting, that just proves that marty was atleast played well enough to win it atleast 2 times
Trottier
Very Random
That's a pretty poor example, since Belfour played some of his best hockey in his 30's, especially in the post season where he was unreal for Dallas in 1999 and 2000.
Dominik Hasek started winning the Vezina when he was given a chance to be a starter. He continued to win it until he was into his late 30's. He did this because he was head-and-shoulder better than any other goalie of his era, and that includes Brodeur. From the time Hasek became a starter to the time he retired, none of Roy, Brodeur, or Belfour touched the Vezina. That's 3 HOF goalies playing some of their best hockey, and none of them could touch Hasek. Now just imagine if he had entered the league as an 18 or 20 year old. Hasek was raking in awards behind the Iron Curtain for nearly a decade before he was given a starting job in the NHL.
Brodeur is winning Vezina's now because he is indeed the best goalie in the world. But he wasn't winning them before because he's simply not as good as Hasek was. Dominik Hasek was probably the best hockey player in the world during his prime, at any position. I'm not sure there's another goaltender in the history of hockey who could boast that over a 5 year period.
warroadlakers
Registered User
Actually that is an argument some people use about Lidstrom and his Norris Wins. It has some merit to it, although it doesn't cheapen Lidstrom's Legacy IMO. Not his fault some of competition for those trophies were old (Bourque, Chelios etc.) and that some of the other guys of his generation either aren't consistent enough or get hurt a fair bit.
Blades of Glory
Troll Captain
Brodeur hasn't been able to live up to the legacy of Roy and Hasek as he hasn't been able to carry a mediocre team to the Cup Finals. He has never taken over a postseason like Roy did in 1993 or put a team on his back like Hasek did in 1999.
Fish on The Sand
Untouchable
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
I think this was the first Vezina that Brodeur actually deserved. The first 2 he won he wasn't even in the top 12 in save percentage. They were almost like lifetime achievement awards.
BM67
Registered User
In 06-07 Brodeur became only the 3rd goalie, since the NHL started keeping SV% records in 82-83, to be top 3 in games, minutes, wins, shutouts, GAA, SV%, and total saves. The other two are Pele Lindbergh in 84-85 and Eddie Belfour in 90-91.
Brodeur has been top 5 in Hart voting 7 times. Hasek 5 times, and Roy 4 times.
Brodeur has been top 5 in Hart voting 7 times. Hasek 5 times, and Roy 4 times.
njdevsfn95
Help JJJ, Sprite.
- Jul 30, 2006
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Brodeur never stood a chance against Hasek in the late 90s "because of the system"
"The System" has robbed Brodeur of individual trophies ranging from the Hart to the Conn Smythe.
Doesn't anyone know that "The System" was developed TO FIT BRODEUR and not the other way around?
The man is singlehandedly responsible for bringing the Devils from playoff contenders to Stanley Cup contenders.
Stevens, Daneyko, Neidermayer, Lemieux, etc. were all on the Devils before Brodeur became the starter.
Those are good names, but not one of them was a Champion (as a Devil) until Brodeur arrived.
"The System" has robbed Brodeur of individual trophies ranging from the Hart to the Conn Smythe.
Doesn't anyone know that "The System" was developed TO FIT BRODEUR and not the other way around?
The man is singlehandedly responsible for bringing the Devils from playoff contenders to Stanley Cup contenders.
Stevens, Daneyko, Neidermayer, Lemieux, etc. were all on the Devils before Brodeur became the starter.
Those are good names, but not one of them was a Champion (as a Devil) until Brodeur arrived.
Does someone like pnep have the stats for 1995 playoff goalies and 1986 playoff goalies save percentage and GAA? Would be interesting. 2003 is always the year Brodeur lovers say he was clearly the MVP. Maybe in 1995 he actually was.
Brodeur didnt win anything when he was head to head vs Hasek because Hasek was better. His vastly superior numbers on a vastly inferior team should be proof enough.
njdevsfn95
Help JJJ, Sprite.
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Brodeur
96-97 67 37 14 13 -- 3838 120 10 1.88 .927 Playoffs - 11 games
97-98 70 43 17 8 -- 4128 130 10 1.89 .917 Playoffs - 6 games
Hasek
96-97 67 37 20 10 4,037 153 2,177 5 2.27 .930 Playoffs - 3
97-98 72 33 23 13 4,220 147 2,149 13 2.09 .932 Playoffs - 15
96-97 Same amount of games, 6 less wins for Hasek, 5 less shutouts. 200 more shots against (2.5/game more). GAA 0.40 in Brodeur's favor. SP% relatively similar.
97-98 Brodeur played 2 less games with 10 more wins and 6 less losses. Considering games played shots against relatively the same. Shutouts 3 apart and SP% definitely in Hasek's favor.
96-97 was Brodeurs, 97-98 was Hasek's, but look at the playoff succes. Hasek's team made it to the Conference Finals in 98 and Cup finals in 99. Brodeurs didn't make it past Round 1 in either year. Yes, i know it doesnt count towards the Vezina, but you said the team was vastly inferior when it obviously was not.
The stats arent "vastly superior" nor was Hasek's team "vastly inferior."
Hockey Outsider
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- Jan 16, 2005
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Hasek and Brodeur were close in the late 1990s but let's not re-write history and say that their teams were anywhere close to each other.
- In 1998, the highest scoring Sabre (Miro Satan) scored just 46 points. The Devils had five players exceed that total.
- New Jersey was 9th in the league in goals for, Buffalo was 17th.
- Zhitnik and Wolley were the Sabres' best offensive and defensive defensemen, respectively. I would suggest that these two players are a bit worse than two Hall of Famers in Stevens and Niedermayer. Stevens was just six voting points out of 2nd place for the Norris trophy that year; no Buffalo defensemen earned a single Norris vote.
- The Buffalo Sabres allowed more shots than any other team; New Jersey allowed less than every team except Dallas. I would argue that Buffalo generally had a poor defensive team and allowed dangerous, high-quality scoring chances.
I don't understand the fixation with GAA. It's literally just (1 - save percentage) * shots against. In 1997 Hasek's GAA was 20.7% higher but he faced 40.2% more shots per game. How is that a point in favour of Brodeur?
- In 1998, the highest scoring Sabre (Miro Satan) scored just 46 points. The Devils had five players exceed that total.
- New Jersey was 9th in the league in goals for, Buffalo was 17th.
- Zhitnik and Wolley were the Sabres' best offensive and defensive defensemen, respectively. I would suggest that these two players are a bit worse than two Hall of Famers in Stevens and Niedermayer. Stevens was just six voting points out of 2nd place for the Norris trophy that year; no Buffalo defensemen earned a single Norris vote.
- The Buffalo Sabres allowed more shots than any other team; New Jersey allowed less than every team except Dallas. I would argue that Buffalo generally had a poor defensive team and allowed dangerous, high-quality scoring chances.
I don't understand the fixation with GAA. It's literally just (1 - save percentage) * shots against. In 1997 Hasek's GAA was 20.7% higher but he faced 40.2% more shots per game. How is that a point in favour of Brodeur?
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