Brendan Shanahan, Mark Hunter, Kyle Dubas

[jazzeyman]

So let me get this straight. Carlyle had to go because he managed to camouflage the Leaf's weaknesses enough to win half the time? He held the team back from showing their true crapiness?

This line of reasoning only proves, even more, how incompetent Leaf management is.

Let's get rid of the guy who could light a fire under these lazy-***** enough of the time to actually seem like they care, just so we can see how pathetic they really are.

 

[ITM]

that was a thing of sheer beauty

That's very much appreciated, Faltorvo, thank you.

 

[ITM]

Reading this was an absolute pleasure. It's not often I read a post on here that clears a topic up or teaches me something. Absolute pleasure.

Easily the most thought out insightful post on the subject.

Humbling,m'man. Sincerely, thanks for the reply and for reading it.

 

[Rufio65*]

So let me get this straight. Carlyle had to go because he managed to camouflage the Leaf's weaknesses enough to win half the time? He held the team back from showing their true crapiness?

This line of reasoning only proves, even more, how incomeptent Leaf management is.

Let's get rid of the guy who could light a fire under these lazy-***** enough of the time to actually seem like they care, just so we can see how pathetic they really are.

Exactly.. Anyone who can't see that Shanny has no plan and no clue what he is doing, is in denial.

Shanny:

-Extending Randy then fired him when he had a winning record.
- Replaced him with an imbecile and the team responds with the worst month+ of hockey in the history of this franchise.
- Still has Dave Nonis as GM, but apparently fires Randy to expose the players that the Nonis signed to large, long term contracts.
- Tried hard to convince Gorges to come here and he is one of the worst dman in the NHL.


It's pretty simple for me. If Shanny fired Randy in hopes that the team would get better results he should be fired. If he fired Randy in order to tank/expose Nonis' core than he should've fired Nonis or he should be fired.

As a Detroit Lions fan I got to witness Matt Millen completely destroy the organization. He, like Shanny was a winner as a player and had zero front office experience. The similarities between the 2 and the initial moves that they've made are scary similar. Having Shanny run this ship is the worst thing that this franchise could do. They would be better off just handing the reigns to someone like Mike Keenan.

 

[613Leafer]

This trade deadline / draft will be fairly defining moments for Shanny's tenure as president.

If he doesn't trade Kessel over the next 6 months, then there's no reason to ever expect him to be traded or really to expect us to focus heavily on the draft. If he's not traded when this organization is hitting rock bottom and while his relationship with the media is as tenuous as ever, then that means Shanny is committing longterm to Kessel, and essentially to trying to make some quick fixes to get out of this mess.

There's no point in keeping Kessel if you think it's going to take 3+ years to get out of this. So keeping him indicates that Shanny expects to be a playoff team sooner rather than later.

In my view, Kessel isn't remotely a Shanny or Hunter style player, so I'd be surprised if he were still here next year. Not to mention this is a great opportunity for this management group to push this group in a new direction, in THEIR direction. Sticking with much of the same core is just sticking to what you inherited by default. And when the group you inherited by default is a perennial failure, there's no pressure or onus to stick with that group. Better to go in a direction that follows your own philosophies, and build from the ground up.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

So refreshing hearing Rob Ray speak about Buffalo GM Tim Murray this morning on TSN Mike Richards show.

Summary.

-Lets you know exactly what the plan is
-Is honest when he answers
-is always available to reporters
-if it is a question he cannot answer, he just won't, rather than be caught in a lie later

This is the guy we should have hired. He's got Buffalo heading in the right direction.

 

[Faltorvo]

Exactly.. Anyone who can't see that Shanny has no plan and no clue what he is doing, is in denial.

Shanny:

-Extending Randy then fired him when he had a winning record.
- Replaced him with an imbecile and the team responds with the worst month+ of hockey in the history of this franchise.
- Still has Dave Nonis as GM, but apparently fires Randy to expose the players that the Nonis signed to large, long term contracts.
- Tried hard to convince Gorges to come here and he is one of the worst dman in the NHL.


It's pretty simple for me. If Shanny fired Randy in hopes that the team would get better results he should be fired. If he fired Randy in order to tank/expose Nonis' core than he should've fired Nonis or he should be fired.

As a Detroit Lions fan I got to witness Matt Millen completely destroy the organization. He, like Shanny was a winner as a player and had zero front office experience. The similarities between the 2 and the initial moves that they've made are scary similar. Having Shanny run this ship is the worst thing that this franchise could do. They would be better off just handing the reigns to someone like Mike Keenan.

read the article in the globe and mail this morning and learn something.

you have it completely and utterly dead wrong.

 

[Kelly]

How does Nonis still have a job? No, really, I am asking that.

Is there some sort of political wrangling where Shanahan has been told Nonis is safe for "x amount of time"?

Did Lieweke go to Shanny and say, "I promised Dave he could serve out his contract, so you can't fire him"?

Has MLSE meddled and told Shanny Nonis will NOT be relieved of his duties?

Nonis just seems a little too comfy in that GM chair right now. When a coach or GM is about to be canned, you can always read it in their voice and actions. Nonis is not displaying any of that.

Because of the mess Nonis has put together and the trades he has made, anyone in their right mind can see what a buffoon this tool is.

I have zero trust in Nonuts going into this TDL with some much at stake on the line with this rebuild.

If the 3rd of March comes and goes, and Nonis only made one insignificant move, I think fans from the GTA, should make signs and picket for Nonis's head outside the ACC.

If that happens and no good deals were done, the Shanahan can GTFO too.

I say all this because of last year and Nonis not making one move as either a seller or buyer of significance. Everyone could see how flawed the team was, yet nothing was done.

So we do have cause for concern, we have evidence he is a complete twit.

I think the one poster (totally forget who it was, pretty sure it was a mod tho) hit the nail on the head in another thread.

He's being kept as Shanahan's next scapegoat.

Shanahan has 3 scapegoats he can use.

1) Carlyle
2) Players
3) Nonis

After them the blame is put on Shanahan.

He's already used one, the players are next, so keeping around Nonis as a puppet until he needs to do something drastic to keep peace and prosperity amongst the fans is what I see is happening.

I would imagine, other then bringing in Timmies for everybody in the am, every decision Nonis makes has to be ran through everybody and approved by Shanahan.

I want Nonis gone, but I'm not losing sleep over him still being "employed" by the Leafs.

 

[Sonny21]

We'll find out at trade deadline and especially at the draft, if this is the real deal or it's their version of another "retool".

Saying that, I've been critical of Shanahan especially not firing Nonis. I don't know if I believe that he wanted to rebuild all along and just two weeks convinced the board, who really knows.

I will say this, if Leafs actually do rebuild by stripping it down to the bone and going after only picks/prospects and not players who are closer to playing (ala Caputi instead of 2nd) and I will give Shanahan all the praise and respect.

It won't be an after thought or thinking it's an easy feat to convince MLSE to do a complete rebuild, one might even believe that person would have to be a good politician lol. I mean lets face it, NO ONE has been able to convince our owners in the past decade++ to do a proper rebuild.

So I don't think it's as easy as people believe including myself for him to START the season with that agenda/goal and having the owners approve it. Who knows.

Anyways we shall see.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I'm going to give Nonis some props today. As I said, I would be fair by his actions or non actions.

But if I am going to take his interview on Leafs Lunch at face value. He said the right things.

Obcourse the deal helps, he got fair/good value back for Franson and Santorelli. And admitted Poille is a difficult and slow guy to deal with. But he got it done. So give him a checkmark 2 weeks before the dead line.

What makes me comfortable is he is not going to sell off players for the sake of selling them off at reduced prices. Said there is no blow up plan, unless he gets fair value back for players. Which was a worry for me. You don't want the vultures picking at this franchise. So yes he is still going to be evaluated for his performance in this rebuild.

Thus far, I am a little more comfortable if what he says and does is what he is going to do. We will see.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Nonis on SN Central now.

 

[CBinTokyo]

I think the one poster (totally forget who it was, pretty sure it was a mod tho) hit the nail on the head in another thread.

He's being kept as Shanahan's next scapegoat.

Shanahan has 3 scapegoats he can use.

1) Carlyle
2) Players
3) Nonis

After them the blame is put on Shanahan.

He's already used one, the players are next, so keeping around Nonis as a puppet until he needs to do something drastic to keep peace and prosperity amongst the fans is what I see is happening.

I would imagine, other then bringing in Timmies for everybody in the am, every decision Nonis makes has to be ran through everybody and approved by Shanahan.

I want Nonis gone, but I'm not losing sleep over him still being "employed" by the Leafs.

Shanahan doesn't need scapegoats.

In my opinion he has been observing, learning and taking steps to right the boat. When you come into an organisation, with the mandate to fix it, you need to know what the problem is before you act. Not think you know, but actually know. This comes only through taking your time, observing and studying the inner workings.

Once you know what the problem is, that isn't enough. You need a solution. Firing someone may be removing a problem, but it is not a solution in and of itself and it may even be the wrong choice.

The direction now is rebuild. This has been approved by the organisation as a whole and I believe this is this first time in recent history there has been such a total buy in to this concept by the Leafs. Shanahan has made this happen. In the context of this new direction, Nonis may still have value if he has the ability to buy into the new culture, new strategy as well as execute the actions required for the rebuild.

Nonis may very well be part of the new Leafs going forward if he is able to provide value to the group under the new mandate. If not I'd expect him to be let go and replaced by someone outside the current organisation that can.

Shanahan isn't here trying to save his job. He is here trying to fix the Leafs.

 

[Tyler Biggs*]

Now that the Leafs have Mark Hunter, I have some confidence in their drafting ability. Picks are good.

 

[Tyler Biggs*]

Settle down, let the man make the trades before you pass judgment. There is no rush here...that's the whole point. Shanahan gave the team, as it was, a chance to prove that they were worth keeping together and they failed...again. So now he's going to take it apart, one piece at a time. As long as we move out our upcoming UFA's by the trade dead line for young players and picks, he's doing fine in my opinion. Kessel and Phaneuf can be moved now or in the summer, it really doesn't matter, as long as we get a fair return. And I'm sure Shanny has final say on any moves Mr.Nonis makes so no worries that Dave will screw this up. We're going to be a terrible team for a while so I don't see any reason to rush in, the key is to get valuable assets wherever possible and if that happens to help our draft position....so be it. Let's face it, this team can't get any MORE disappointing than it already is, so I say let's give the man a chance...maybe it will work.

 

[horner]

So let me get this straight. Carlyle had to go because he managed to camouflage the Leaf's weaknesses enough to win half the time? He held the team back from showing their true crapiness?

This line of reasoning only proves, even more, how incompetent Leaf management is.

Let's get rid of the guy who could light a fire under these lazy-***** enough of the time to actually seem like they care, just so we can see how pathetic they really are.

He didn't light a fire

He let the players do what they wanted to do

I think Shanny realized this and had to make a change

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

He didn't light a fire

He let the players do what they wanted to do

I think Shanny realized this and had to make a change

Exactly. Carlyle knew exactly what kind of group he was dealing with and what could be expected from them and after multiple attempts to change them he simply let them play as they wanted and with whom they wanted.

Horacheck steps in and have that "fresh authority" of some one the players has not yet figured out and he gets them playing this 5-5-5 system, that most teams play, but doing so with one way, rush players is not the same thing as doing so with hard working 2-way players.

At this point it does not really matter who the coach is and as long as we keep the same core around even Babcock would not make any difference.

Every team can carry one, perhaps two flawed players, flawed as in weak defensively, but a team built with that kind of players are doomed to fail.

A change is coming and a lot of darlings will be killed. What ever their future team looks like I dont think many on the current roster will be on it.

UFA´s will be gone (we already traded two of them)
The old core will be moved out, Kessel, Phaneuf, Bozak, Lupul if there is any takers.
The still young and promising who does not fit in will eventually be moved out. Could be both Kadri and Gardiner. Perhaps even JVR if some other team wants him badly enough.

I think they are even at the stage when they are thinking about repainting the locker room to have as little as common with the previous group.

The players they will target at the draft and in trades will be skilled players but only if that skill comes with high hockey IQ. And they will target strong 2-way players with character. Can we get our hands on de la Rose, Tierney, dal Colle or players similar to them as return for the above players I think we will be on a good way into reshaping the Leafs to what it should be. A team that is hard to play against.

 

[jazzeyman]

is Nylander a two-way player with character?

A lot of posts here have already painted him as 'lazy' and a 'floater'.

We don't need any more offensively-talented floaters.

 

[RyanOhReally]

is Nylander a two-way player with character?

A lot of posts here have already painted him as 'lazy' and a 'floater'.

We don't need any more offensively-talented floaters.

To me, he's more like Kadri than Kessel. He's a super raw talent who loves to display offence, but has the potential to work on his defence. For all of the flack that Kadri gets, his small game (positioning, face offs) has improved dramatically.

 

[Kingstonian84*]

is Nylander a two-way player with character?

A lot of posts here have already painted him as 'lazy' and a 'floater'.

We don't need any more offensively-talented floaters.

My BIL watched him heavily at the World Juniours and he said that Nylander played an uptempo game but also floated a lot and didn't display any grit either, I'm just going on what he told me. I have also read scouting reports that offers up something different which is- Nylander while he won't launch himself at people or wont ever be a selke candidate he also wont shy away from the rough stuff/corners and plays an adequate 2 way game... I've heard him be compared to Alferdson, and as much as Alfy is a ********* if Nylander can even be half as skilled and half the career he had then I'd say its a success.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Had to go back and find this thread.

All I am going to say is sign Sean Burke. He's available. Create an executive role for him in this Management group. He is a superb teacher for Goalies, he is part of Hockey Canada. He's a bright young guy, that has played with Shanahan in NJ. He also played for Toronto as a junior.

Has 5+ years experience with Arizona. He is not inexperienced.

Special Assistant to the GM, Advisor of Hockey Operations. Leafs could use another hockey mind in the Front Office. Get it done. Sign Sean Burke.

 

[613Leafer]

is Nylander a two-way player with character?

A lot of posts here have already painted him as 'lazy' and a 'floater'.

We don't need any more offensively-talented floaters.

I think this post will be shown to be pretty inaccurate. Nylanders predraft reputation seems to have been pretty far off the mark.

He's much better defensively than I expected, fights hard for loose pucks, and has been praised by his coach for his work ethic.

 

[The Legend]

So let me get this straight. Carlyle had to go because he managed to camouflage the Leaf's weaknesses enough to win half the time? He held the team back from showing their true crapiness?

This line of reasoning only proves, even more, how incompetent Leaf management is.

Let's get rid of the guy who could light a fire under these lazy-***** enough of the time to actually seem like they care, just so we can see how pathetic they really are.

This is awkward. Carlyle had to go because he was a horrible coach who had no discernible system, made awful personnel decisions with his lineup (Kostka over Gardiner my personal favourite), had backwards opinions of players (Grabo, Mac), and - oh ya - had never had any success whatsoever with this team over a long stretch of time.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

More on Sean Burke possibly being added to the Leaf's management group.

As per Simmons:

When the NHL season ends, expect the Leafs to seek permission to speak with Sean Burke of the Coyotes, whom they would like to add to their front office in a goaltending and management role. A lot of people credit Burke with Devan Dubnyk’s amazing career turnaround this season ...

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/03/28/anthopoulos-draft-record-shows-his-true-value-as-jays-gm

This would be a great move. One I would endorse 100%. I believe he has GM potential one day.

 

[Drew75]

More on Sean Burke possibly being added to the Leaf's management group.

As per Simmons:



http://www.torontosun.com/2015/03/28/anthopoulos-draft-record-shows-his-true-value-as-jays-gm

This would be a great move. One I would endorse 100%. I believe he has GM potential one day.

If we could add Burke (Sean, that is!) - you'd have to consider that we would then have 3 of the top young, up-and-coming hockey minds in the game as recognized by insiders in Hunter, Dubas, and Burke. That's like a rebuild within the front office - load up on prospects and see who develops!

 

[Cor]

Adding Burke to this management group would be fantastic. Sean Burke is an excellent evaluater of goaltenders, and fantastic at working with them.

Wonder if the Leafs would consider carrying two Assistant GM's, Dubas and Burke.