Player Discussion Brendan Gaunce (Canucks will not extend qualifying offer - Dhaliwal)

[F A N]

Gaunce needs more time in the AHL. His production there was actually good. Maybe he will figure it out later. Staying in the NHL right now will only hinder his offensive growth, he's got no creativity or offensive awareness.

It's probably too late for that. Right now, going back to the AHL isn't likely to make him a better offensive producer in the NHL. He simply needs to learn how to put the puck in the back of the net at the NHL level. He's an NHL player who should produce more offensively.

 

[DL44]

It's also amazing how people don't understand how production is tied to usage, ice time, and linemates.

I think the issue is when they choose to apply the usage/icetime/linemates context.

Ie. If you are thrashing or supporting Gaunce vs another player on usage/icetime/linemates context.. they better be applying the same context to the comparable.

 

[Jay Cee]

Interesting how the deployment issues and lack of offense is overlooked for many other players *cough Beagle cough*, yet when faced with a player who is actually successful in that role, that information is conveniently ignored. He's got like the worst zone start ratio of any regular Canuck forward from the last three seasons (even slightly worse than Sutter's in aggregate), has crap quality of teammates, and his quality of competition metrics aren't that far off that of Sutter's.

Despite this legitimately difficult deployment, Gaunce comes out positive in all relative teammate shot metrics (corsi, fenwick, xGoals).

His lack of offense is definitely concerning, but he is a very good defensive player. I am optimistic that he will eventually provide more offense, even if only via regression, as his on-ice Sh% was ~4.5% (which was roughly the same as Edler had in the infamous "green-jacket" season, which he predictably "recovered" from). I'm pretty confident he's never going to be a good or even average offensive player, but I would expect more goals to go in while Gaunce is on the ice.



Exactly. He's a legitimately good suppression/defensive player. I think teams can find a role for that type of player (lord knows we have many who are purported to do just that).



Mostly agree as stated above, but thus far the lack of offense (which I don't think is entirely his fault) IS preventing him from outscoring. But I don't think that should be a huge concern going forward. If his on-ice Sh% regresses to even just an average 4th line forward level, he'll be fine in this regard.



Yes, I also find it quite funny that same crowd who'll cry "points aren't everything" with respect to some players, are very quick to point to the lack of production from Gaunce.

For the record, I think Beagle is dogshit.

 

[Melvin]

I think the issue is when they choose to apply the usage/icetime/linemates context.

Ie. If you are thrashing or supporting Gaunce vs another player on usage/icetime/linemates context.. they better be applying the same context to the comparable.

Example?

 

[bossram]

For the record, I think Beagle is dog****.

But you haven't debated any of the other points.

 

[sting101]

It's amazing how many people don't seem to realize that the point of hockey is to outscore the opposition and that a player's point totals are irrelevant if he's good snitch defensively that his line outscores the opposition despite starting in his own zone 75% of the time.

It's also amazing how people don't understand how production is tied to usage, ice time, and linemates.

This is such a half truth and you know it.

When LW/RW Derek Dorsett went down for the season Nov 30th 2017. For the next 16 games until Gaunce was healthy scratched he produced 1 goal off his skate in ATOI of 14:52. That unsavory production was during a stretch when the team went from 11-10-4 to 16-19-6.

To add context to the situation:

C-Brandon Sutter was already out and would not return till Jan 14th
C-Bo Horvat was lost with a ankle sprain Dec 7th would not return until Jan 20th
LW-Sven Baertschi was lost Dec 11th and would miss 11 games with a jaw injury.
all players that Gaunce could play their positions

----------------------GP-g-a-pts-+/- SH-ATOI
Brendan Gaunce---- 16-1-0-1-(+2) 22-14:52

A huge opportunity to step up with loads of ice time and he basically worked himself to a healthy scrtach on a skeleton roster getting eaten alive during a horrendous stretch of the season with 4 key players out. If you think going through stretches like that and just surviving your ice time playing good defense is enough then i dont know what to say. The same stretch of games Granlund who you love to tear to pieces scored 4 goals 2 assists 6pts and 45 shots on goal in less than 2 minutes of ice time more. And because i know you will pull this half truth about zone starts and deployment like it negates him from going into the offensive zone and doing ANYTHING Jay Beagle during the same stretch of time and games being deployed just as Gaunce was used put up 1g and 4assists for 5pts and that was with 2 minutes less ice time and without his team dying for someone to step up.

 

[Peter10]

This is such a half truth and you know it.

When LW/RW Derek Dorsett went down for the season Nov 30th 2017. For the next 16 games until Gaunce was healthy scratched he produced 1 goal off his skate in ATOI of 14:52. That unsavory production was during a stretch when the team went from 11-10-4 to 16-19-6.
...

Not that there is much difference but you should get at least the stats right when making such statements. Gaunce had 14:07 of TOI not 14:52.

NHL.com - Stats

And to put his 1 goal over this stretch in context, $36m man Loui Eriksson had 2 assists in that same stretch while averaging 17:22 TOI - including 1:41 PP TOI

 

[racerjoe]

Not that there is much difference but you should get at least the stats right when making such statements. Gaunce had 14:07 of TOI not 14:52.

NHL.com - Stats

And to put his 1 goal over this stretch in context, $36m man Loui Eriksson had 2 assists in that same stretch while averaging 17:22 TOI - including 1:41 PP TOI

Looking strictly at the stats provided he was also a plus 2, the only player to do so. So I don't see how that would be drowning. but that is relying on a stat that we all know is not that great.

 

[MS]

This is such a half truth and you know it.

When LW/RW Derek Dorsett went down for the season Nov 30th 2017. For the next 16 games until Gaunce was healthy scratched he produced 1 goal off his skate in ATOI of 14:52. That unsavory production was during a stretch when the team went from 11-10-4 to 16-19-6.

To add context to the situation:

C-Brandon Sutter was already out and would not return till Jan 14th
C-Bo Horvat was lost with a ankle sprain Dec 7th would not return until Jan 20th
LW-Sven Baertschi was lost Dec 11th and would miss 11 games with a jaw injury.
all players that Gaunce could play their positions

----------------------GP-g-a-pts-+/- SH-ATOI
Brendan Gaunce---- 16-1-0-1-(+2) 22-14:52

A huge opportunity to step up with loads of ice time and he basically worked himself to a healthy scrtach on a skeleton roster getting eaten alive during a horrendous stretch of the season with 4 key players out. If you think going through stretches like that and just surviving your ice time playing good defense is enough then i dont know what to say. The same stretch of games Granlund who you love to tear to pieces scored 4 goals 2 assists 6pts and 45 shots on goal in less than 2 minutes of ice time more. And because i know you will pull this half truth about zone starts and deployment like it negates him from going into the offensive zone and doing ANYTHING Jay Beagle during the same stretch of time and games being deployed just as Gaunce was used put up 1g and 4assists for 5pts and that was with 2 minutes less ice time and without his team dying for someone to step up.

What a crock of absolute shit.

Gaunce was put into a role on the team's 3rd line getting the toughest zone starts in the NHL against top opposition players.

In the 16-game stretch you're citing, he absolutely killed those tough defensive minutes and was a +2. Outscored the offensive players he was playing against and did his exact job perfectly - started shifts in his zone, kept things safe, and finished in the offensive zone. And freed up the team's 'offensive' players to be put in optimal positions to do their jobs.

To criticize a rookie defensive forward for doing his job this well because he didn't score enough POINTZ! is insane bordering on comical.

Meanwhile, you defend Markus Granlund, one of the offensive players that Gaunce was freeing up. In that 16-game stretch, Granlund scored a paltry 3 ES points from top-6 minutes and was a -5 (and a -8 over 18 games if you back it up 2 more games). He might have scored more points because he was getting PP time, but his performance and production were abysmal for a player in that role, and he was outscored badly as he has been throughout his time here.

To sit here and claim that Gaunce wasn't performing during that stretch but that Granlund was shows a fundamental understanding of the sport and what was actually happening on the ice.

It's like mocking Chris Tanev for smothering opposing top lines for a 20-game stretch but only scoring 2 or 3 points while cheerleading a Derrick Pouliot for scoring 8 points from soft minutes and PP time over the same stretch while getting eviscerated defensively.

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

 

[mathonwy]

How much are we paying Gaunce? How old is he? How long is his contract? Is he on the up-slope or down-slope? Think before you post.

A 12 million dollar contract over 4 years to a 32 year old is not the same thing as 1 year at 1 milion to a 24 year old. That should be obvious.

But muh mentor... (sorry Y2K)

 

[David Bruce Banner]

There’s lots of guys on the team I would be happy to lose, but Gaunce isn’t one of them.

 

[mathonwy]

Sorry to all that are offended by this statement but if you wanna know why the majority of this forum support Gaunce (which btw, is the same majority that concluded that Jimbo and Trevor were dumbasses early on), you gotta pay closer attention.

Literally focus on the player and evaluate how he makes his decisions. With the puck (easy) and without the puck (not so easy).

Gaunce plays a tonne in the D-zone WHICH MEANS Gaunce's metrics are outcome driven as opposed to statistics driven with example outcomes being, did the Canucks get scored on? Were the Canucks scrambling like chickens with their heads cut off or was it a clean defensive play with perhaps some ozone possession time before Gaunce inevitably leaves the ice in favor of a more offensive line? Was Gaunce able to separate the forechecker from the puck efficiently and doing so without taking a penalty?

Same deal with Biega.

Or...

Don't pay attention, don't watch him play and judge him exactly how a fantasy GM does which is contextualess stats.

 

[absolute garbage]

This is such a half truth and you know it.

When LW/RW Derek Dorsett went down for the season Nov 30th 2017. For the next 16 games until Gaunce was healthy scratched he produced 1 goal off his skate in ATOI of 14:52. That unsavory production was during a stretch when the team went from 11-10-4 to 16-19-6.

To add context to the situation:

C-Brandon Sutter was already out and would not return till Jan 14th
C-Bo Horvat was lost with a ankle sprain Dec 7th would not return until Jan 20th
LW-Sven Baertschi was lost Dec 11th and would miss 11 games with a jaw injury.
all players that Gaunce could play their positions

----------------------GP-g-a-pts-+/- SH-ATOI
Brendan Gaunce---- 16-1-0-1-(+2) 22-14:52

A huge opportunity to step up with loads of ice time and he basically worked himself to a healthy scrtach on a skeleton roster getting eaten alive during a horrendous stretch of the season with 4 key players out. If you think going through stretches like that and just surviving your ice time playing good defense is enough then i dont know what to say. The same stretch of games Granlund who you love to tear to pieces scored 4 goals 2 assists 6pts and 45 shots on goal in less than 2 minutes of ice time more. And because i know you will pull this half truth about zone starts and deployment like it negates him from going into the offensive zone and doing ANYTHING Jay Beagle during the same stretch of time and games being deployed just as Gaunce was used put up 1g and 4assists for 5pts and that was with 2 minutes less ice time and without his team dying for someone to step up.

Have to say, you are the most disappointing poster here. Some of the people here are just obvious kids and trolls and whatnot, not even trying, but you actually make a lot of well-written arguments and points. They are just all blatantly wrong. It's very unique here. Almost every time a person reaches your level of commitment and experience, all these falsehoods go away. Somehow it just doesn't happen with you, you just continue to strut along with this garbage.

In the stretch you mention, there were exactly two Canucks who were positive players. Both were +2. Boeser and Gaunce. Gaunce had the lowest o-zone starts in the league (Boeser was over 60%). Also, the Canucks scored one more 5on5 goal with Gaunce on the ice than Granlund during that stretch.

 

[Wo Yorfat]

Have to say, you are the most disappointing poster here. Some of the people here are just obvious kids and trolls and whatnot, not even trying, but you actually make a lot of well-written arguments and points. They are just all blatantly wrong. It's very unique here. Almost every time a person reaches your level of commitment and experience, all these falsehoods go away. Somehow it just doesn't happen with you, you just continue to strut along with this garbage.

In the stretch you mention, there were exactly two Canucks who were positive players. Both were +2. Boeser and Gaunce. Gaunce had the lowest o-zone starts in the league (Boeser was over 60%). Also, the Canucks scored one more 5on5 goal with Gaunce on the ice than Granlund during that stretch.

 

[sting101]

Sorry to all that are offended by this statement but if you wanna know why the majority of this forum support Gaunce (which btw, is the same majority that concluded that Jimbo and Trevor were dumbasses early on), you gotta pay closer attention.

Literally focus on the player and evaluate how he makes his decisions. With the puck (easy) and without the puck (not so easy).

Gaunce plays a tonne in the D-zone WHICH MEANS Gaunce's metrics are outcome driven as opposed to statistics driven with example outcomes being, did the Canucks get scored on? Were the Canucks scrambling like chickens with their heads cut off or was it a clean defensive play with perhaps some ozone possession time before Gaunce inevitably leaves the ice in favor of a more offensive line? Was Gaunce able to separate the forechecker from the puck efficiently and doing so without taking a penalty?

Same deal with Biega.

Or...

Don't pay attention, don't watch him play and judge him exactly how a fantasy GM does which is stats stats stats.

This is utter crap just like MS and his diversion to attacking Granlund instead of dealing with the fact that his boy was a complete failure and ended up playing with Dowd and Virtanen or whoever because he couldn't move himself up the lineup with 4 players of his positions out of the lineup. Yes he f***ing killed it alright...any chance of probably ever being anything but Tanner Glass killing time for the actual talent to get back on the ice.

And I chronicled this game to game as the season unfolded so this absolute joke that myself and Orcatown weren't being aware of his gameplay outside of statistics is pure garbage.

 

[mathonwy]

This is utter crap just like MS and his diversion to attacking Granlund instead of dealing with the fact that his boy was a complete failure and ended up playing with Dowd and Virtanen or whoever because he couldn't move himself up the lineup with 4 players of his positions out of the lineup. Yes he ****ing killed it alright...any chance of probably ever being anything but Tanner Glass killing time for the actual talent to get back on the ice.

And I chronicled this game to game as the season unfolded so this absolute joke that myself and Orcatown weren't being aware of his gameplay outside of statistics is pure garbage.

TIL watching a player play hockey is utter crap.

Sorry. Why are you on this forum again?

 

[MS]

This is utter crap just like MS and his diversion to attacking Granlund instead of dealing with the fact that his boy was a complete failure and ended up playing with Dowd and Virtanen or whoever because he couldn't move himself up the lineup with 4 players of his positions out of the lineup. Yes he ****ing killed it alright...any chance of probably ever being anything but Tanner Glass killing time for the actual talent to get back on the ice.

And I chronicled this game to game as the season unfolded so this absolute joke that myself and Orcatown weren't being aware of his gameplay outside of statistics is pure garbage.

When you can actually explain how a young defensive forward playing the toughest minutes in the NHL and never getting scored on and outscoring the opposition in those minutes is a 'complete failure', I'm all ears.

You brought up Granlund. How is it my diversion? And again, if you think Granlund was playing well and Gaunce was playing poorly in that stretch, you don't understand what you were watching.

And I give zero f***s about your appeals to authority on Green's player usage. You can do better than that.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Ah, the Gaunce thread. Always revealing to see who understands hockey and who doesn't.

If someone really doesn't understand why it's a good thing a player who's almost exclusively deployed defensively doesn't get scored on, I really don't know what to say. Here's a young, cheap, homegrown player who still manages to saw off points despite being buried in his own zone...let's hate him!

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

 

[Wo Yorfat]

Ah, the Gaunce thread. Always revealing to see who understands hockey and who doesn't.

If someone really doesn't understand why it's a good thing a player who's almost exclusively deployed defensively doesn't get scored on, I really don't know what to say. Here's a young, cheap, homegrown player who still manages to saw off points despite being buried in his own zone...let's hate him!

I can get my head around people not enjoying watching Gaunce or wishing he had some more edge, but last yr he was undeniably a very effective player. I'm confused as to why people struggle so much to understand a concept that you succinctly laid out.

Hard minutes + Positive results = good. Didn't even need BEDMAS.

 

[Fire Benning]

Gaunce makes virtually nothing against the cap and in extreme defensive usage he can be relied to upon to basically never make glaring mistakes and rarely get scored on. He's a defensive forward, criticizing him for not producing enough while doing his job well in an exclusively defensive role makes no sense especially when despite his heavy defensive usage, he still was on pace for a 8 goal season last year. If you can't understand Gaunce's role and that he's reliable in doing his job well then I don't know what to tell you.

Contrast that with someone like Granlund who continuously gets gifted top six minutes in a scoring role in addition to power play time and wound up with a whopping 5 even strength point this season, and is way more soft and worse defensively in comparison to Gaunce. And yet, he seemingly gets a free pass and is still considered a player with decent offensive upside by many fans because um, he scored 30 points that one time...I guess, and that was only by squeezing every last ounce of production out of him, meanwhile Gaunce still will continue to get crucified because no poiiiiiintzzzzz

 

[Shareefruck]

It's funny how these exact same never-ending arguments happened in the Granlund thread for so long, and then once Granlund started to suck, everything just seamlessly migrated to the Gaunce thread.

 

[Fire Benning]

It's also insanely hilarious how one the arguments in favor of the Beagle signing that have been parroted is that he's a good defensive forward who can take the tough assignments in heavy defensive zone usage.

The exact same can be said about Gaunce and despite his good results in those tough minutes, he continues to be hammered meanwhile Beagle, who has yet to play a minute of ice time in a Canucks jersey and just got paid 12 million through his age 32-36 seasons with a buyout proof contract is put on a pedestal for some reason? That's a weird one.

 

[Melvin]

It's also insanely hilarious how one the arguments in favor of the Beagle signing that have been parroted is that he's a good defensive forward who can take the tough assignments in heavy defensive zone usage.

The exact same can be said about Gaunce and despite his good results in those tough minutes, he continues to be hammered meanwhile Beagle, who has yet to play a minute of ice time in a Canucks jersey and just got paid 12 million through his age 32-36 seasons with a buyout proof contract is put on a pedestal for some reason? That's a weird one.

Derp 7 goals is more than 4 though1!!