Value of: Brayden Schenn to the Sabres

[Rebels57]

Flyers fans did try to tell you that his production in the 1st half last season was unsustainable...

Still a solid 55-60 point player though.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Flyers fans did try to tell you that his production in the 1st half last season was unsustainable...

Still a solid 55-60 point player though.

We all knew it was. We have no problem with the player that he is. A bigger part of his increase in production was simple increase in ice time. With ROR, it's down bit, but still above Philly numbers. If the team stops playing like poop in general, then I'd expect Schenn to normalize closer to 65 points. Less than last season, but more than Philly.

 

[Rebels57]

We all knew it was. We have no problem with the player that he is.

Shouldnt trade him at this time. Blues will be fine once they get a good coach and solidify goaltending.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Shouldnt trade him at this time. Blues will be fine once they get a good coach and solidify goaltending.

There are roster issues that need to be fixed, and our locker room is a disaster. Schenn can be part of the solution, the only problem is if he wants to extend or not.

 

[rumrokh]

There are roster issues that need to be fixed, and our locker room is a disaster. Schenn can be part of the solution, the only problem is if he wants to extend or not.

I honestly don't understand how that's ever a thing. Maybe in the case of a superstar who picks on other players; but other than that, these guys are adults, what's the big damn deal?

Leadership at a run-of-the-mill job makes some sense. People are slobs and they'll slack off and take advantage of the system if they aren't held accountable or if they can't reap the rewards of their efforts. But we're talking about 1. a game, 2. something these guys have been doing their entire lives, 3. and are the best in the world at doing.
Is it possible that hockey players are stunted to the point at which a significant number of them have problem personalities and/or actually need to be socially unified by leaders in the room in order to do things like picking up their man on the backcheck and hitting the net with their shots?

Maybe there are some books I should read that really reveal the details of that dynamic, because, while I believe it's a thing to some degree, it's not something I've heard hockey players explain with any detail and it sounds more like a congealed mythology based on guesses by people on the outside rather than actual inside knowledge.

 

[BleedBlue14]

Right. I don't think he has shown he's ready for that role and I said so. Especially on a (hypothetically) winning team next season. However, I think he has gradually come along very well. His play without the puck, his ability to make plays while getting checked, and his judgment about when to keep it simple or when to try to make a play are improving almost every game. He's not racking up points, but he's showing more than potential.

I agree, I just think that's hardly something that you want to look at when considering giving him a permanent top 6 role without a real replacement available. He's in a pretty good spot for his development (although it would be much better if we were winning) in terms of playing time. I wouldn't want to force him into the role.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I honestly don't understand how that's ever a thing. Maybe in the case of a superstar who picks on other players; but other than that, these guys are adults, what's the big damn deal?

Leadership at a run-of-the-mill job makes some sense. People are slobs and they'll slack off and take advantage of the system if they aren't held accountable or if they can't reap the rewards of their efforts. But we're talking about 1. a game, 2. something these guys have been doing their entire lives, 3. and are the best in the world at doing.
Is it possible that hockey players are stunted to the point at which a significant number of them have problem personalities and/or actually need to be socially unified by leaders in the room in order to do things like picking up their man on the backcheck and hitting the net with their shots?

Maybe there are some books I should read that really reveal the details of that dynamic, because, while I believe it's a thing to some degree, it's not something I've heard hockey players explain with any detail and it sounds more like a congealed mythology based on guesses by people on the outside rather than actual inside knowledge.

My best guess, is we've had a dysfunctional locker room for awhile, possibly caused by Steen not getting the C. For the previous 2 seasons, we were still pretty successful and winning, so locker room issues didn't matter as much since winning cures everything. Now that we are losing, the locker room has blown up due to issues that have been simmering for years, and the players now feel like they are in quicksand, where no matter what they do, they keep sinking, and that just destroys morale.

Granted, that's all fan speculation with no inside knowledge, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me. Why they can't just come together as a team without drama is beyond me. Just do your job.

 

[rumrokh]

My best guess, is we've had a dysfunctional locker room for awhile, possibly caused by Steen not getting the C. For the previous 2 seasons, we were still pretty successful and winning, so locker room issues didn't matter as much since winning cures everything. Now that we are losing, the locker room has blown up due to issues that have been simmering for years, and the players now feel like they are in quicksand, where no matter what they do, they keep sinking, and that just destroys morale.

Granted, that's all fan speculation with no inside knowledge, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me. Why they can't just come together as a team without drama is beyond me. Just do your job.

Right. Plausible. Dunno.

My point is more about locker room dysfunction in general. How do you play hockey all your life, get so good at it, play in the league for years, and then you need one or more of your teammates to guide and motivate you so that you'll magically do your job properly? I understand that a team is necessarily closer than most coworkers in professional settings, but isn't that all the more reason for professionalism - both from the players' perspective AND what management and coaches require from old goats on down to rookies?
I also understand that all but the very top players can easily end up relying on team performance for their opportunities and contract values, so if you lose confidence in your teammates, you could then easily begrudge their perceived impact on your livelihood. But are these guys so immature that they'll then compound that and sabotage themselves by playing worse?

We just hear SO MUCH about leadership and how certain players are good or bad in the locker room that it sounds like it's a delicate situation for most of the league. And if that's true, you'd think we'd get more details about how that happens. I dunno, unless there's some kind of hush code among players that means the entire culture can only hope to improve itself from within - so we're just meant to believe it's a pervasive issue by media (including a lot of former players) without ever really knowing how it works.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Right. Plausible. Dunno.

My point is more about locker room dysfunction in general. How do you play hockey all your life, get so good at it, play in the league for years, and then you need one or more of your teammates to guide and motivate you so that you'll magically do your job properly? I understand that a team is necessarily closer than most coworkers in professional settings, but isn't that all the more reason for professionalism - both from the players' perspective AND what management and coaches require from old goats on down to rookies?
I also understand that all but the very top players can easily end up relying on team performance for their opportunities and contract values, so if you lose confidence in your teammates, you could then easily begrudge their perceived impact on your livelihood. But are these guys so immature that they'll then compound that and sabotage themselves by playing worse?

We just hear SO MUCH about leadership and how certain players are good or bad in the locker room that it sounds like it's a delicate situation for most of the league. And if that's true, you'd think we'd get more details about how that happens. I dunno, unless there's some kind of hush code among players that means the entire culture can only hope to improve itself from within - so we're just meant to believe it's a pervasive issue by media (including a lot of former players) without ever really knowing how it works.

I agree, really bizarre. I have to think most of it is just hot air, otherwise we have a very fragile group, like the players keep saying. But, then, how could these guys get to where they are, if they are so fragile? Are they not fragile individually, but only as a group? Any how does that happen?

This team is really bizarre. There are roster construction issues that make it closer to a fringe wild-card team, but performance wise, it's similar to the 05/06 club, and this team has way more talent than that team had. I just can't wrap my head around this team being one of the worst in franchise history. Maybe the 83/84 club is a better comparison though.

 

[TK 421]

Thought I was going to see J.R. on Monday, turns out it should be tomorrow and I'm still planning on asking him what he's basing the locker room discord on specifically.

 

[Reality Czech]

Right. Plausible. Dunno.

My point is more about locker room dysfunction in general. How do you play hockey all your life, get so good at it, play in the league for years, and then you need one or more of your teammates to guide and motivate you so that you'll magically do your job properly? I understand that a team is necessarily closer than most coworkers in professional settings, but isn't that all the more reason for professionalism - both from the players' perspective AND what management and coaches require from old goats on down to rookies?
I also understand that all but the very top players can easily end up relying on team performance for their opportunities and contract values, so if you lose confidence in your teammates, you could then easily begrudge their perceived impact on your livelihood. But are these guys so immature that they'll then compound that and sabotage themselves by playing worse?

We just hear SO MUCH about leadership and how certain players are good or bad in the locker room that it sounds like it's a delicate situation for most of the league. And if that's true, you'd think we'd get more details about how that happens. I dunno, unless there's some kind of hush code among players that means the entire culture can only hope to improve itself from within - so we're just meant to believe it's a pervasive issue by media (including a lot of former players) without ever really knowing how it works.

I like what you're saying. Fans tend to jump to conclusions and always see things in black and white. But what if no one in the locker room is a "cancer" or bad teammate, but rather we have too many passengers and too few hard-working leaders. Maybe some of these guys are just along for the ride, enjoying the life and not taking things as seriously as they should be. Some of these athletes are in it for themselves and aren't willing or able to take the next step. I've said it before, but we don't really have any vets with significant playoff experience and I think teams need that. If not a Cup winner, at least a guy who's been around and commands respect.

So I guess I am suggesting the possibility that it might not be who we have, but what we are missing. I am not saying that Pietrangelo, Tarasenko, Schwartz, Schenn, etc. are bad leaders, but if they were truly great leaders we'd probably see it more often. Where is the fire, boys? That's why I wouldn't be surprised to see someone like Schenn moved. I don't see any reason why he'd sign an extension early considering the state of the team.

 

[MarkusKetterer]

No on Okposo. Would do Schenn for Berglund, Samuelsson, and return of Blues 1st.

I'm fine with this.

 

[rumrokh]

Thought I was going to see J.R. on Monday, turns out it should be tomorrow and I'm still planning on asking him what he's basing the locker room discord on specifically.

Every time someone has asked him something like that, if he deigns to answer, it's some roundabout, handwavy crap about how these are known things and he wouldn't suggest them if they weren't true and he could fill encyclopedias with the locker room details he's never disclosed because it would be unprofessional. The most specific detail we've gotten for a very long time is that Jaskin was a lone wolf. Zippidy doo.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Every time someone has asked him something like that, if he deigns to answer, it's some roundabout, handwavy crap about how these are known things and he wouldn't suggest them if they weren't true and he could fill encyclopedias with the locker room details he's never disclosed because it would be unprofessional. The most specific detail we've gotten for a very long time is that Jaskin was a lone wolf. Zippidy doo.

That and that we had independent contractors, but he would never elaborate more.

 

[rumrokh]

That and that we had independent contractors, but he would never elaborate more.

And the "independent contractors" thing came from Armstrong, who didn't really explain what that meant or even imply it was a locker room issue rather than one on the ice.

 

[bleedblue1223]

And the "independent contractors" thing came from Armstrong, who didn't really explain what that meant or even imply it was a locker room issue rather than one on the ice.

Ah, that's right, I must just remember JR repeating it.

 

[TK 421]

Every time someone has asked him something like that, if he deigns to answer, it's some roundabout, handwavy crap about how these are known things and he wouldn't suggest them if they weren't true and he could fill encyclopedias with the locker room details he's never disclosed because it would be unprofessional. The most specific detail we've gotten for a very long time is that Jaskin was a lone wolf. Zippidy doo.

Which is pretty much what I expect to hear but nonetheless I'll be asking. The setting I'll be talking to him in may get me a better answer than what he'd give in a Q&A session online.

 

[Djp]

That’s why I said 2 firsts and a cap dump. We traded philly 2 first and Jori lehterible for him.

Logical problem..just because you were dumb to trade two 1sts doesn’t mean buffalo will fix that.

 

[Mike Liut]

Logical problem..just because you were dumb to trade two 1sts doesn’t mean buffalo will fix that.

Schenn is a really good player. Plays tough too

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

What about sending Schenn to Colorado?

Dont think the Blues ever do it within the division.

But gosh he would be such a wonderful fit as our 2C. I'd give up a nice package to get him on this team and would offer him ~7M for 5-6 years this summer.


Something like Colorado 1st + Jost + Timmins. That's a deal I'd make. It's a hefty package of futures and if St. Louis really does decide to tear things down and go full rebuild/retool getting a 1st + a good young Center and a Top prospect would be a great package for them.


Avs are in a position where we're fortunate enough to be able to part with such a package and still have a healthy amount of futures within the organization. Makar, Meloche, Girard all under 23 on Defense still. And still have Ottawa's 1st, our 2nd, and a pair of 3rd rounders for the 2019 draft.

 

[Colt55]

Dont think the Blues ever do it within the division.

But gosh he would be such a wonderful fit as our 2C. I'd give up a nice package to get him on this team and would offer him ~7M for 5-6 years this summer.


Something like Colorado 1st + Jost + Timmins. That's a deal I'd make. It's a hefty package of futures and if St. Louis really does decide to tear things down and go full rebuild/retool getting a 1st + a good young Center and a Top prospect would be a great package for them.


Avs are in a position where we're fortunate enough to be able to part with such a package and still have a healthy amount of futures within the organization. Makar, Meloche, Girard all under 23 on Defense still. And still have Ottawa's 1st, our 2nd, and a pair of 3rd rounders for the 2019 draft.

You want schenn, we want ott 1st round pick 2019. Can add from thier

 

[bleedblue1223]

Logical problem..just because you were dumb to trade two 1sts doesn’t mean buffalo will fix that.

It wasnt dumb. A 1st for Schenn and a 1st to dump Lehtera.

 

[Revelation]

Flyers fans did try to tell you that his production in the 1st half last season was unsustainable...

Still a solid 55-60 point player though.

Did Flyers fans know 20 other guys were gonna fall off a cliff for the Blues as well? Would have been useful information for sure

 

[stl76]

Dont think the Blues ever do it within the division.

But gosh he would be such a wonderful fit as our 2C. I'd give up a nice package to get him on this team and would offer him ~7M for 5-6 years this summer.


Something like Colorado 1st + Jost + Timmins. That's a deal I'd make. It's a hefty package of futures and if St. Louis really does decide to tear things down and go full rebuild/retool getting a 1st + a good young Center and a Top prospect would be a great package for them.


Avs are in a position where we're fortunate enough to be able to part with such a package and still have a healthy amount of futures within the organization. Makar, Meloche, Girard all under 23 on Defense still. And still have Ottawa's 1st, our 2nd, and a pair of 3rd rounders for the 2019 draft.

That's actually a very enticing deal. But I am higher than most on Timmins. Is he still dealing with concussion issues tho?

 

[cgf]

It wasnt dumb. A 1st for Schenn and a 1st to dump Lehtera.

Hard pass. Schenn isn’t worth the OTT pick pre-lottery or Makar. Pierce’s offer is already more than what you paid for him