Rumor: Brayden Schenn to Leafs?

[FlyingPhilly]

I know it's sarcasm, but there is only one player on your team that could get a return like that

If you are saying JVR + Reilly is enough of a return for Giroux, you are dreaming. You would need to add more to that starting package.

Seriously, Schenn for Gardiner is a terrible trade for the flyers. No way can Homer do that. No way.

The same GM that traded JVR for LSchenn would in fact do this if he thought it was a good deal. Seriously, that trade was bad starting from the proposals about them on this board up to the deal actually being made.

 

[CS]

The same GM that traded JVR for LSchenn would in fact do this if he thought it was a good deal. Seriously, that trade was bad starting from the proposals about them on this board up to the deal actually being made.

It was arguably a panic move. I can see the point in retrospect. We needed to get more defensively responsible, and we had the forward depth to spare.

I argued during that whole period not to drop JVR on LSchenn, pointing out that Laughton+ was a more even proposal.

We overpaid. Slightly.

LSchenn's brother, Brayden, has become basically what we wanted JVR to become. Couturier is slowly stepping into what we expected Brayden to become for us. Adding Lecavalier and Downie basically for free gave us the depth to rebound from the loss of JVR. Meanwhile, Laughton is looking like a stud. I'm not so torn up about the slight loss of value on our end because things have worked out favorably. We needed young, promising defensemen, and just as Coburn did, LSchenn will rebound.

 

[FlyingPhilly]

It was arguably a panic move. I can see the point in retrospect. We needed to get more defensively responsible, and we had the forward depth to spare.

I argued during that whole period not to drop JVR on LSchenn, pointing out that Laughton+ was a more even proposal.

We overpaid. Slightly.

LSchenn's brother, Brayden, has become basically what we wanted JVR to become. Couturier is slowly stepping into what we expected Brayden to become for us. Adding Lecavalier and Downie basically for free gave us the depth to rebound from the loss of JVR. Meanwhile, Laughton is looking like a stud. I'm not so torn up about the slight loss of value on our end because things have worked out favorably. We needed young, promising defensemen, and just as Coburn did, LSchenn will rebound.

I disagree. I thought the Flyers overpaid a decent amount when the deal was announced. I agree the Flyers needed a young d-man, but if Holmgren was going to trade JVR for a d-man it should have been for a better one than LSchenn, like Yandle.

Vinny and Downie have no bearing on that trade so I don't get the point of mentioning them. We could still have both of them and Laughton now w/o the trade as well.

 

[Wiqkid*]

Like someone else stated. Our offense is pretty much set for awhile. Keep all the young kids including Schenn and try and draft a stud dman or sign one via free agency.

 

[Stizzle]

Like someone else stated. Our offense is pretty much set for awhile. Keep all the young kids including Schenn and try and draft a stud dman or sign one via free agency.

Good defensemen do not hit free agency unless they are older, a la Streit.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Good defensemen do not hit free agency unless they are older, a la Streit.

There was that Ryan Suter guy two years ago.

 

[Beef Invictus]

There was that Ryan Suter guy two years ago.

Unfortunately the competition for those guys tends to be about 30 teams deep.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Unfortunately the competition for those guys tends to be about 30 teams deep.

Oh I agree but it does happen, Brian Campbell is another one off the top of my head in recent years as well.

I also agree that the best approach is drafting them but it's not some crazy rarity for a good defensemen to hit free agency is my main point.

 

[Calderone]

Ways to get a number 1 defenseman:

1. Draft + Develop
2. Offersheet
3. A trade opening for an impending UFA (UFA must be leaving on his own accord for financial reasons)

Basically all three options are equally hard. Where #1 is concerned, you actually have to commit to drafting these players in high percentage areas of the draft. We've been conducting, posting, and discussing the math on this for years, but there was a huge period of time when the Flyers just didn't draft defensemen high. We could debate the reasons forever, but that left a visible hole within our organization. Fear of failure, comfort with success, market visibility before fluctuation...all solid theories, maybe not all incorrect or correct. Regardless of this though, we've moved on. 8 of the last 14 draft picks have been defensemen; some taken fairly high. This would've been unheard of for mid-2000's Philadelphia.

Where #2 is concerned, we already know this story. You can't always throw money at the problem even if you try your damn hardest to back the other team into a corner. Ed Snider played the game, and regardless of your feelings about letting Carle walk for free (I still can't believe that was a real gripe around here), going hard after Weber was the right idea. If you think we jumped the gun, then possibly. It's hard to tell why decisions are made the way they are, but fortune favors the bold. Waiting for Weber may not have been fruitful either.

As far as #3, see Pronger. These are the guys that don't make it to free-agency unless they're something sneaky going on; see Suter. Basically, you're still going to pay an arm and a leg, but in the end it's generally worth it. These situations are just as rare as #2 and as hard to contend with as #1 because it throws your ability to play #1 out the window. That's what happened to us anyway.

So realistically, teams just don't trade young, able-bodied and sound-minded #1 defensemen. It doesn't happen. There is no "we have too many of them" nonsense to speculate on either before someone from Toronto claims "take some of our awesome sauce off our hands." Particularly when it comes to defensemen, stick to the belief that if you're supposedly getting a deal, you probably aren't. Guys like Gardiner and Franson are not the deal you're looking for, and I can tell you exactly why. The deal you're looking for does not exist. You're just going to end up regretting it. vanRiemsdyk for LSchenn was different. We pretty much knew what the drawbacks and flaws of both guys were going in. We weren't looking at a lead winger for a lead defenseman. That was a complimentary winger for a complimentary defenseman. As far as looking for that one guy by trading key offensive players; any opportunity is a feint, a trap, a hoax.

So this leads me to my point. Keep calm, carry on, and for the love of god, don't trade Brayden Schenn or Sean Couturier, or really anybody. This team is built to develop like fine wine. We still need a number one defenseman, but develop him. Our team is young enough, and everyone knows we draft well. Keep our window never-ending and eventually you will strike gold. Also, always remember, depth wins championships; not elite stature.

LSchenn, Gustafsson, Gostisbehere, Morin, Hagg, Alt, Manning, Lauridsen, Larsson, Wilcox, and Valsiliev. Work from there. Your offense is already set long-term.

Couldnt agree more..

 

[PropJoe]

There was that Ryan Suter guy two years ago.

My guess is the new CBA has changed this. Guys like Suter aren't going to get 13 year deals anymore so there's no incentive for them to wait for free agency. Better for them to just take the max-term deal when they get it from their current teams.

 

[dookie88]

There was that Ryan Suter guy two years ago.

I remember vividly how Bob McKenzie said on Free Agent Frenzy day that, if it would be a pure financial decision both Parise and Suter would've signed with the Flyers.
So yeah, we never really had a shot at Suter.

 

[chimrichalds18]

My guess is the new CBA has changed this. Guys like Suter aren't going to get 13 year deals anymore so there's no incentive for them to wait for free agency. Better for them to just take the max-term deal when they get it from their current teams.

Exactly. Unless teams are that far off on money, there's no incentive for guys to sign with other teams where the max is 7 years when their own team can give them 8 years...which means that drafting defensemen (and good players) is that much more important. It's definitely a strike against the richer teams that can throw money at the problem, but we draft well as an organization too, so get those scouts to earn their pay.

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

I disagree. I thought the Flyers overpaid a decent amount when the deal was announced. I agree the Flyers needed a young d-man, but if Holmgren was going to trade JVR for a d-man it should have been for a better one than LSchenn, like Yandle.

Vinny and Downie have no bearing on that trade so I don't get the point of mentioning them. We could still have both of them and Laughton now w/o the trade as well.

But Phoenix wasn't going to part with Yandle for just JVR. The Flyers would have had to pony up big time and Phoenix wanted at least a 1st round pick plus prospects.

I'm more than content with Luke Schenn. Power skating lessons are probably a must this off season as well as shedding a few pounds (it's not like he's fat, but he's too heavy to be playing at 230 when he's only 6'2) to be better on his feet.

He played very well last season, so I'm not sure why there's hesitation with using him this season. I will say that I'm quite comfortable with John Paddock working with Luke because Paddock has a history of working well with defensemen.

As for JVR, never was and never will be a fan. He's already started to cool off after his hot start and the inconsistencies that plague him are starting to come back.

 

[Psuhockey]

Ways to get a number 1 defenseman:

1. Draft + Develop
2. Offersheet
3. A trade opening for an impending UFA (UFA must be leaving on his own accord for financial reasons)

Basically all three options are equally hard. Where #1 is concerned, you actually have to commit to drafting these players in high percentage areas of the draft. We've been conducting, posting, and discussing the math on this for years, but there was a huge period of time when the Flyers just didn't draft defensemen high. We could debate the reasons forever, but that left a visible hole within our organization. Fear of failure, comfort with success, market visibility before fluctuation...all solid theories, maybe not all incorrect or correct. Regardless of this though, we've moved on. 8 of the last 14 draft picks have been defensemen; some taken fairly high. This would've been unheard of for mid-2000's Philadelphia.

Where #2 is concerned, we already know this story. You can't always throw money at the problem even if you try your damn hardest to back the other team into a corner. Ed Snider played the game, and regardless of your feelings about letting Carle walk for free (I still can't believe that was a real gripe around here), going hard after Weber was the right idea. If you think we jumped the gun, then possibly. It's hard to tell why decisions are made the way they are, but fortune favors the bold. Waiting for Weber may not have been fruitful either.

As far as #3, see Pronger. These are the guys that don't make it to free-agency unless they're something sneaky going on; see Suter. Basically, you're still going to pay an arm and a leg, but in the end it's generally worth it. These situations are just as rare as #2 and as hard to contend with as #1 because it throws your ability to play #1 out the window. That's what happened to us anyway.

So realistically, teams just don't trade young, able-bodied and sound-minded #1 defensemen. It doesn't happen. There is no "we have too many of them" nonsense to speculate on either before someone from Toronto claims "take some of our awesome sauce off our hands." Particularly when it comes to defensemen, stick to the belief that if you're supposedly getting a deal, you probably aren't. Guys like Gardiner and Franson are not the deal you're looking for, and I can tell you exactly why. The deal you're looking for does not exist. You're just going to end up regretting it. vanRiemsdyk for LSchenn was different. We pretty much knew what the drawbacks and flaws of both guys were going in. We weren't looking at a lead winger for a lead defenseman. That was a complimentary winger for a complimentary defenseman. As far as looking for that one guy by trading key offensive players; any opportunity is a feint, a trap, a hoax.

So this leads me to my point. Keep calm, carry on, and for the love of god, don't trade Brayden Schenn or Sean Couturier, or really anybody. This team is built to develop like fine wine. We still need a number one defenseman, but develop him. Our team is young enough, and everyone knows we draft well. Keep our window never-ending and eventually you will strike gold. Also, always remember, depth wins championships; not elite stature.

LSchenn, Gustafsson, Gostisbehere, Morin, Hagg, Alt, Manning, Lauridsen, Larsson, Wilcox, and Valsiliev. Work from there. Your offense is already set long-term.

You can also trade for one before they hit like Chara to Ottawa, Pronger to St Louis, and Ryan McDonagh to the Rangers. It's very rare but can happen. You get 2nd tier guys thru trades as well before they hit like Coburn, Shattenkirk, byfuglien, and Leddy to name a few.

I disagree on the depth over elite stature. The last 6 Stanley Cup champions had at least two players who are by in large in the top 10 if not top 5 at their position. Anaheim had Pronger, Niedermayer, and Selanne. Detroit had Lidstrom, Zetterberg, and Datsyuk. Pittsburgh had Malkin and Crosby,arguable the top 2 players in the league. Chicago has Duncan Keith, Norris Trophy winner, Hossa and Kane top 10 wingers, and Toews possibly in the top 10 centers plus Seabrook who is just a Canadian Olympian in a league dominated by Canadians. Boston had Chara, Bergeron and Thomas and now Rask. LA had Quick, Doughty and IMO Kopitar. Even if you take Kopitar out, that's still two. Besides Pittsburgh these teams all had depth too but they also had a couple elite players. Flyers have Giroux and ...............?

 

[tymed]

I disagree. I thought the Flyers overpaid a decent amount when the deal was announced. I agree the Flyers needed a young d-man, but if Holmgren was going to trade JVR for a d-man it should have been for a better one than LSchenn, like Yandle.

Vinny and Downie have no bearing on that trade so I don't get the point of mentioning them. We could still have both of them and Laughton now w/o the trade as well.

But Phoenix wasn't going to part with Yandle for just JVR. The Flyers would have had to pony up big time and Phoenix wanted at least a 1st round pick plus prospects.

I'm more than content with Luke Schenn. Power skating lessons are probably a must this off season as well as shedding a few pounds (it's not like he's fat, but he's too heavy to be playing at 230 when he's only 6'2) to be better on his feet.

He played very well last season, so I'm not sure why there's hesitation with using him this season. I will say that I'm quite comfortable with John Paddock working with Luke because Paddock has a history of working well with defensemen.

As for JVR, never was and never will be a fan. He's already started to cool off after his hot start and the inconsistencies that plague him are starting to come back.

^This.

I'll also add that while, yes, The Vinny and Downie acquisitons have no direct bearing when you isolate the value in the trade, it's still directly related to a GM's ability to fill the new holes that his trades have created. You have to get creative because the deals you want and need are most often not there.

 

[Richards18Forever]

Just give the leafs a 2nd 5th and some mid level forward prospect for Gardiner and be done with it.

 

[Embiid]

I remember vividly how Bob McKenzie said on Free Agent Frenzy day that, if it would be a pure financial decision both Parise and Suter would've signed with the Flyers.
So yeah, we never really had a shot at Suter.

Yup..as Meltzer characterized Holmgren's attempt at Suter and Parise...PIPE DREAM.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I remember vividly how Bob McKenzie said on Free Agent Frenzy day that, if it would be a pure financial decision both Parise and Suter would've signed with the Flyers.
So yeah, we never really had a shot at Suter.

I wasn't saying anything about whether the Flyers had a chance of signing him. The OP said good defensemen who aren't old don't make it to free agency, I just used Suter as a recent example off the top of my head to dispute that.

 

[DecadesofFutility]

Just give the leafs a 2nd 5th and some mid level forward prospect for Gardiner and be done with it.

Not in favor of trading Brayden Schenn + for anything less than an established top offensive defenseman.
The Flyers should be willing to add to the deal if needed to obtain young established defenseman.
One who has the tools to become a #1 Defenseman and years of experience as running a PP.
Do not need another project defenseman for top 6 forward.
If Holmgren gets only Gardiner for B Schenn he should immediately be fired.

 

[Hockeypete49]

Would NOT trade Brayden unless it was severely lopsided in the Flyers favor.We gave up MIKE RICHARDS for this kid as well as Simmonds. How about we KEEP them!

He is not going anywhere unless it is contract related and or the Flyers get a massive lopsided deal.

 

[Hardnell]

Insert GM here, "Hey Paul, would you be willing to part with Brayden Schenn?"

Paul, "What kind of overpaid 3rd Pairing D-men would be coming back?"

Hextall leans in, "Paul, Brayden is our leading scorer, and we have 7 or 8 3rd pairing D men"

Paul, "Oh... Random GM, could I call you back in 5"

 

[DecadesofFutility]

Ways to get a number 1 defenseman:

1. Draft + Develop
2. Offersheet
3. A trade opening for an impending UFA (UFA must be leaving on his own accord for financial reasons)

Basically all three options are equally hard. Where #1 is concerned, you actually have to commit to drafting these players in high percentage areas of the draft. We've been conducting, posting, and discussing the math on this for years, but there was a huge period of time when the Flyers just didn't draft defensemen high. We could debate the reasons forever, but that left a visible hole within our organization. Fear of failure, comfort with success, market visibility before fluctuation...all solid theories, maybe not all incorrect or correct. Regardless of this though, we've moved on. 8 of the last 14 draft picks have been defensemen; some taken fairly high. This would've been unheard of for mid-2000's Philadelphia.

Where #2 is concerned, we already know this story. You can't always throw money at the problem even if you try your damn hardest to back the other team into a corner. Ed Snider played the game, and regardless of your feelings about letting Carle walk for free (I still can't believe that was a real gripe around here), going hard after Weber was the right idea. If you think we jumped the gun, then possibly. It's hard to tell why decisions are made the way they are, but fortune favors the bold. Waiting for Weber may not have been fruitful either.

As far as #3, see Pronger. These are the guys that don't make it to free-agency unless they're something sneaky going on; see Suter. Basically, you're still going to pay an arm and a leg, but in the end it's generally worth it. These situations are just as rare as #2 and as hard to contend with as #1 because it throws your ability to play #1 out the window. That's what happened to us anyway.

So realistically, teams just don't trade young, able-bodied and sound-minded #1 defensemen. It doesn't happen. There is no "we have too many of them" nonsense to speculate on either before someone from Toronto claims "take some of our awesome sauce off our hands." Particularly when it comes to defensemen, stick to the belief that if you're supposedly getting a deal, you probably aren't. Guys like Gardiner and Franson are not the deal you're looking for, and I can tell you exactly why. The deal you're looking for does not exist. You're just going to end up regretting it. vanRiemsdyk for LSchenn was different. We pretty much knew what the drawbacks and flaws of both guys were going in. We weren't looking at a lead winger for a lead defenseman. That was a complimentary winger for a complimentary defenseman. As far as looking for that one guy by trading key offensive players; any opportunity is a feint, a trap, a hoax.

So this leads me to my point. Keep calm, carry on, and for the love of god, don't trade Brayden Schenn or Sean Couturier, or really anybody. This team is built to develop like fine wine. We still need a number one defenseman, but develop him. Our team is young enough, and everyone knows we draft well. Keep our window never-ending and eventually you will strike gold. Also, always remember, depth wins championships; not elite stature.

LSchenn, Gustafsson, Gostisbehere, Morin, Hagg, Alt, Manning, Lauridsen, Larsson, Wilcox, and Valsiliev. Work from there. Your offense is already set long-term.

I have to disagree 100% with this theory.
Flyers do not have the patience to impliment this rebuilding plan.
IMHO, Without trading forwards and picks this defense will never improve.
Your plan will not work, it is the definition of insanity.

1) Draft - Until recently the draft has been ignored as a means to fix the need for
offensive defensemen.
Flyers have shown no desire or ability in their past to develop an offensive
defensemen. I have no reason to believe they can draft and develop one now.

2) Offer sheets - Now more likely be matched by the players current team.
Due to shortened contracts it is easier for teams to retain their best players.
I have no belief that an offersheet for #1 defenseman would be successful.

3) Older veteran UFA - Can still be good players, but likely not the stars or
superstars they were in their prime.
I do not believe that older players are the long term solution for the defense.

The only reasonable plan is to build like successful teams do from the goal out.
When they traded Richards and Carter they should have recieved top defensive players to build around.
Not sure any of the Flyers recent defensive picks will become a #1 defenseman or even a top 4 defenseman at this point.
Therefore, assets must be traded to replenish the defensive deadwood on the backend.
Forwards and picks must be sacrificed in order to build a younger and better defense.
Yes, this plan requires you to overpay for your defenseman, but I see no other options.
Once the defense rebuild is completed then they can focus on improving the offense.

IMHO, to constantly bandaid the defense and expect anything above mediocrity is insane.

 

[Hiesenberg]

This story has seemed to evolve....from what I gather, Schenn is available if somebody calls and offers what Holmgren needs, like a #1 Franchise Dman. I think we're all in that boat. But its a very very very very very low percentage that that phone call is made.

 

[hckyplayer8]

This story has seemed to evolve....from what I gather, Schenn is available if somebody calls and offers what Holmgren needs, like a #1 Franchise Dman. I think we're all in that boat. But its a very very very very very low percentage that that phone call is made.

People need something to talk about now that we are playing better.

Surely can't talk about the recent success we have had.

 

[RinaldoZac]

Insert GM here, "Hey Paul, would you be willing to part with Brayden Schenn?"

Paul, "What kind of overpaid 3rd Pairing D-men would be coming back?"

Hextall leans in, "Paul, Brayden is our leading scorer, and we have 7 or 8 3rd pairing D men"

Paul, "Oh... Random GM, could I call you back in 5"

Enough of this nonsense, Schenn isn't going anywhere!