Bravo Allvin. The D is pretty much rebuilt.

[bossram]

It is. Though when you think back to the last time the Canucks were real "contenders"...they essentially had 5 "top pairing" or Top-3 caliber defenceman on the roster. Hamhuis, Bieksa (as half of Hamjuice at least), Ehrhoff, Edler, Salo (when healthy) were all of that sort of caliber. That was a Cup Contender caliber blueline. Though maybe a bit ambitious to expect that kind of depth again.

I think what we have in Hughes right now also kind of offsets some of that. He's playing at a higher level than any of the guys we had at that point. So less need to do it all "by committee" if you have that true Norris caliber #1D anchoring things and eating up huge minutes.

Agreed. Hughes offsets that somewhat, but they're still a minimum of one more top-pair calibre defenseman from contending (and a top-line calibre winger).

They're really not that close yet.

 

[CanuckleBerry]

Agreed. Hughes offsets that somewhat, but they're still a minimum of one more top-pair calibre defenseman from contending (and a top-line calibre winger).

They're really not that close yet.

I would also add a solid 3C to the mix. One that is actually capable of stepping into the top six to cover an injury. I agree they're really not that close despite having some very good pieces and some promising results. Replace Kuzmenko with Nylander, add a 3C, and a #3 D and this team can challenge Vegas, Colorado, LA, etc. That likely will take another season of moves to accomplish.

 

[Raistlin]

When Willander comes out of BU for the stretch run (probably after his sophomore year):

Hughes-Hronek
Zadorov-Willander
Soucy-Bear

Looks like a great group to me if they can keep Hronek, Zadorov and Bear.

I need to see a full year from Hronek to consider him a solid #2. His floor on this team is an anchoring puck mover on the second pair. Tocchet is overusing him right now, and he does tend to fade as the year goes on. In April 2025 entering playoffs I want to see

Hughes - XXXX
Zadorov - Hronek
Soucy - Willander
EP/Cole? - Bear

There is still a dire need for a true #2 to challenge the top teams in the west. Pesce? Hanifin? may have to come in next year via TDL trade like Hedican/Brown.

 

[docbenton]

I need to see a full year from Hronek to consider him a solid #2. His floor on this team is an anchoring puck mover on the second pair. Tocchet is overusing him right now, and he does tend to fade as the year goes on. In April 2025 entering playoffs I want to see

Hughes - XXXX
Zadorov - Hronek
Soucy - Willander
EP/Cole? - Bear

There is still a dire need for a true #2 to challenge the top teams in the west. Pesce? Hanifin? may have to come in next year via TDL trade like Hedican/Brown.

Willander will be a top 4 the moment he steps foot in the NHL. He won't be on the bottom pair, I'll tell you that much. If we had both Willander and Bear Hronek would not be playing nearly so much.

 

[bossram]

I would also add a solid 3C to the mix. One that is actually capable of stepping into the top six to cover an injury. I agree they're really not that close despite having some very good pieces and some promising results. Replace Kuzmenko with Nylander, add a 3C, and a #3 D and this team can challenge Vegas, Colorado, LA, etc. That likely will take another season of moves to accomplish.

A legit 3C would also be nice, but I rank that under a 2-3D and 1W.

I also think Suter is capable enough as 3C, especially if another high-end forward bumps Mikheyev down the 3rd line.

 

[Raistlin]

Willander will be a top 4 the moment he steps foot in the NHL. He won't be on the bottom pair, I'll tell you that much. If we had both Willander and Bear Hronek would not be playing nearly so much.

the name of this thread harkens back to a time when we just drafted a "top rated D", you should read some of the comments on the first few pages from some well known posters. Their takes are equally sublime

Expectations after 2 years is that he should be able to excel in a bottom pairing role heading into the playoffs after finishing his season with BU. I would caution against expecting anything more, if he turns into this year's Faber and play 20+ minutes right away, I will do a backflip.

 

[biturbo19]

A legit 3C would also be nice, but I rank that under a 2-3D and 1W.

I also think Suter is capable enough as 3C, especially if another high-end forward bumps Mikheyev down the 3rd line.

Yeah. I think that between Suter/Lafferty/Bluegers, there's enough there to do a sort of "#3C by Committee" sort of thing. Not the perfect scenario, but it's not as much of a weak point as i thought it might still be. Depends on who they're able to keep out of Lafferty/Bluegers this summer though. Or if they're able to go out and get some sort of upgrade there, it'd be welcome enough.

Continuing to build out the top-end of the defence is still the priority though imo. Especially since Cole is a UFA and his age just keeps ticking on upward. So...what they can scrounge up the money for there, is going to continue to be a big pressure point. If it's not keeping him and hoping he continues to hold up...that takes us a step back to needing another #4/5ish tweener D with that sort of defense-first profile, just to hold serve. In addition to adding another Top-3 caliber guy.


The Winger thing on the other hand...i see the idea there. We definitely need something else there, at the higher end. I'm not sure it really has to be a top-line winger per se. Just...a winger who can mesh really well and fit in on the "top line" as a complementary piece with some decent scoring touch. A Mikheyev-esque solution would do the trick i think. Just one who meshes a little bit better with Petey and Kuz. Which would push Mikheyev down the lineup, which helps with that as well.

 

[bossram]

Yeah. I think that between Suter/Lafferty/Bluegers, there's enough there to do a sort of "#3C by Committee" sort of thing. Not the perfect scenario, but it's not as much of a weak point as i thought it might still be. Depends on who they're able to keep out of Lafferty/Bluegers this summer though. Or if they're able to go out and get some sort of upgrade there, it'd be welcome enough.

Continuing to build out the top-end of the defence is still the priority though imo. Especially since Cole is a UFA and his age just keeps ticking on upward. So...what they can scrounge up the money for there, is going to continue to be a big pressure point. If it's not keeping him and hoping he continues to hold up...that takes us a step back to needing another #4/5ish tweener D with that sort of defense-first profile, just to hold serve. In addition to adding another Top-3 caliber guy.


The Winger thing on the other hand...i see the idea there. We definitely need something else there, at the higher end. I'm not sure it really has to be a top-line winger per se. Just...a winger who can mesh really well and fit in on the "top line" as a complementary piece with some decent scoring touch. A Mikheyev-esque solution would do the trick i think. Just one who meshes a little bit better with Petey and Kuz. Which would push Mikheyev down the lineup, which helps with that as well.

Yeah, on the 3rd line, I think they have enough pieces to create something strong enough. Especially if you can bump Mikheyev down the lineup. In Toronto, Mikheyev and Engvall were 3rd line stalwarts and gave that Mik-Kampf-Engvall line great outperformance.

I would bring Cole back (especially over Zadorov), but his age presents the risk of rapid decline. They really need another top-pair quality defender.

The forward/winger add doesn't necessarily need to be a true star, but they need to be able to find someone they can get top-line quality performance out of (like Bunting was to Matthews/Marner, or Lehkonen was to Colorado, or Hagel to TB, etc.)

 

[biturbo19]

Yeah, on the 3rd line, I think they have enough pieces to create something strong enough. Especially if you can bump Mikheyev down the lineup. In Toronto, Mikheyev and Engvall were 3rd line stalwarts and gave that Mik-Kampf-Engvall line great outperformance.

I would bring Cole back (especially over Zadorov), but his age presents the risk of rapid decline. They really need another top-pair quality defender.

The forward/winger add doesn't necessarily need to be a true star, but they need to be able to find someone they can get top-line quality performance out of (like Bunting was to Matthews/Marner, or Lehkonen was to Colorado, or Hagel to TB, etc.)

Ideally, yeah...Mikheyev is the perfect "middle-6 swing role" sort of player. Like a Higgins type. He'd be a great, luxury sort of player on a strong, deep, contending sort of team. But he's got enough juice to bump up to the Top-6 as needed...for a spark, covering injuries, etc.


Getting to that point though...it's really 2 Top-6 Wingers that we need. Which is a big ask, with all of the priorities elsewhere. Particularly on the Defence corps. And at Center...i'm okay with what we've got, but i'm not sure if we'll be able to keep all the depth that makes it work. One of Bluegers/Lafferty is likely going to be tough to fit in cap-wise. I'd lean very much toward keeping Lafferty. But we only really have 2 true "Top-6 Wingers" on this team (Kuz, Boeser). The rest are...bottom-6ers. Also kind of depends on what happens with Garland, who is already sort of a "premium bottom-6 winger" who can drive even strength play and scoring from a 3rd/4th line. Probably tough to get rid of...for a player who is still pretty useful.



As for Cole...i think it's a case of just wait and see. Evaluate how much it looks like he has left in the tank down the stretch. That'll tell me a lot about whether he's a decent bet to maintain a reasonable level of play, or fall off that age cliff. But it's still very much up in the air. Hronek's getting a big raise that'll eat up a ton of that Myers money coming off the books. So we're not playing with huge amounts of wiggle room under the cap.

 

[credulous]

i think for all the talk of 'pro scouting' the canucks bottom six is still a huge weakness. the canucks bottom six centers are bluegers and suter while vegas run stephenson and roy and lak have danault and lizotte. the canucks are weak at wing too with only really hoglander/lafferty (depending on who's in the top 6 this week) and joshua really deserving their minutes

if the canucks were stronger in the top 6 they could probably get away with it but they're weak on the wings there too. outside of kuzmenko last year they've really struggled to upgrade up front. mikheyev, bluegers, suter and aman are all playing too high up the lineup imo

 

[PavelBure10]

Still some gaping holes on D that needs to be addressed. Another top 4 defenseman who can skate would be nice. Willander will eventually fit that role but a good two way defenseman would fit the bill, something that every team needs lol. Cole, Myers, Zadorov, or Soucy aren't exactly speedsters. Someone who can join the rush and chip in offensively while being defensively responsible would be nice.

Not sure who the heck I'm thinking of but Oliver Kylington comes to my mind.

 

[theguardianII]

Still some gaping holes on D that needs to be addressed. Another top 4 defenseman who can skate would be nice. Willander will eventually fit that role but a good two way defenseman would fit the bill, something that every team needs lol. Cole, Myers, Zadorov, or Soucy aren't exactly speedsters. Someone who can join the rush and chip in offensively while being defensively responsible would be nice.

Not sure who the heck I'm thinking of but Oliver Kylington comes to my mind.

They are faster than you think they just look sooooo slow. But have you seen very many player skate around them?

Another reason they don't look like top 3 dmen is they are never deployed that way. Once a player is pigeon holed as a certain type they rarely get to change their stripes. Seattle did allow for change and succeeded with one or two.

Sometimes that fails as seen here trying to make Gudbranson into something he wasn't.

The between periods showed Zadorov skated a sustained 37.7 kmh, that's fast. And Myers can fly when he does charge down the ice every now and then.

Myers' game should start being much more dynamic now that the pressure of being the only defensive dman on the team is off and he has less ice time, he doesn't have to conserve himself.

Oliver Kylington is too small at just under 6', Hanifin? Or go the opposite and go Tanev. That Schneider kid out of NYR just might be available due to their cap problems

 

[bossram]

i think for all the talk of 'pro scouting' the canucks bottom six is still a huge weakness. the canucks bottom six centers are bluegers and suter while vegas run stephenson and roy and lak have danault and lizotte. the canucks are weak at wing too with only really hoglander/lafferty (depending on who's in the top 6 this week) and joshua really deserving their minutes

if the canucks were stronger in the top 6 they could probably get away with it but they're weak on the wings there too. outside of kuzmenko last year they've really struggled to upgrade up front. mikheyev, bluegers, suter and aman are all playing too high up the lineup imo

Hmm? IMO the pro scouting has been pretty good. The Canucks didn't have the assets to acquire and run a true top-six center at 3C (a la Stephenson or Dubois). But they found some guys who have giving them quality performances at 3C in Blueger and Suter for cheap.

The 3rd line has been carrying the team at 5v5 for a month. That's really a successful job there.

I think the Garland - Suter/Blueger - Joshua 3rd line is actually quite good. What they need is another top-line calibre winger to replace one of the rando spots on the Pettersson or Miller lines.

 

[Petey But Really Jim]

We are still missing a good right shooting dman. After hronek all of our right shooting dmans is literally rubbish.

Just utter bullocks.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I'm going to agree with pretty much everything you said here, except "Reinhart's corpse". Although he was on his last legs professionally, due to chronic back pain, he did manage 64 and 67 games in his two seasons here. And skill-wise, I still rank him in the top 5 defenders we've ever had.
A healthy Reinhart would have been an upgrade over Jeff Brown.

in the last year i watched a couple games of the 89 series against the flames and to my eyes reinhart looked decent overall and a very good puck mover at even strength and hughes-like on the pp. my sense is the year after he was hobbled and regressed to below average at es.

but happy to hear a firsthand account if you’d like to say more. not a lot of footage out there of the 1990 season and tbh i’m not sure i’d want to watch it even if there was.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Outside of re-watching that same Flames series it's been over 20 years since I saw him play, but my memory is of a gifted offensive defenseman who could play some smart D. The main issue was the missing games. But he was good when he could play.

 

[theguardianII]

Hronek is starting to either get tired or starting to show some of the defensive lapses Detroit saw. Their forum/media chatter of him was not very flattering pointing out defence mistakes.

Hronek as trade bait now? He would get back at least what was traded and probably more considering the interest while he had a broken wing.

IMO I think there are some D on the team that could be moved up or encouraged to play more offensively.

BIG defencemen often get the defence first and only roles, it is the way it has always been so coach's just keep thinking that way. But at the same time stopping 30 pucks in the net a year has a bigger value than one player scoring 30.

Another consideration is the number of defencemen available in FA coming up. A flood of them which could lower the price.

Today, right now Hronek's next contact is seen to be in 7+million range. That could be two younger large defensive players. Or maybe even Calgary's pair of Tanev and Hanifin with adding part of Cole's money. But there are others too.

Hughes - Tanev
Hanifin - Zarorov
Myers - Soucy
Peeke, Pesce, Lybyshkin,

Hronek - 4.4 mil
Myers - 6 mil
Cole - 3 mil
Zadorov - 3.75 mil

17.15 divided into next year's cap structure

Tanev - 3/3.5
Myers - 2.5/3
Zarorov - 4/4.5
Hanifin - 6

That would be cap neutral essentially, a little less than used now but;

Hughes - 5'9 1/2"
Tanev - 6'2"
Zadorov - 6'6"
Myers - 6'8"
Soucy - 6'5"
Hanifin - 6'3"

In size, a formidable playoff defence group.

And if Kuzmenko, Garland AND Boeser are moved on, (17.5 mil) too then there could be even more. 11+ mil for Pettersson, 10+ mil for Nylander and ?

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Looking at next season, with the cap expected to rise to $87m (or $84.65m for us due to OEL's buyout), I think we can allocation roughly $28m to defense (assuming Petey gets $12m, and filling out the rest of the bottom 6 with an average of $2m per player, the forward group should come to around $50m, and I'll allocate about $7m to goaltending). What we have currently signed for next season: Hughes ($7.9m) and Soucy ($3.25m). Leaving $18.85m for the rest of the D core. If Hronek signs for say $7.5m, that doesn't leave much for the rest. How do you guys feel going into next season with this:

Huhges (7.9m) - Tanev (3m)
Soucy (3.25m) - Hronek (7.5m)
Zadorov (4m) - UFA (1.5m)
Woo/Wolanin (0.775m)

That is just below $28m. Not much cap space for the #6 slot even if we can get Tanev, Hronek and Zadorov at the numbers proposed above (no guarantee). My concern is if Tanev can play top 4 minutes anymore, and the UFA signing will have to be capable of stepping up into a top 4 role because Tanev is likely to miss some games over the course of a season, but at 1.5m there is simply no reasonable way to get a RSD that can step up to a top 4 role.

Looks like we will likely have to unload another forward in the summer if we really want to complete the D-rebuild. Filling out 3 top 6 D slots with $11m is pretty tough.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Huhges (7.9m) - Tanev (3m)
Soucy (3.25m) - Hronek (7.5m)
Zadorov (4m) - UFA (1.5m)
Woo/Wolanin (0.775m)

Think you're underpaying Tanev by at least a million (look to the Holl contract as a floor for Tanev), but more egregious is the Zadorov money given his spot on the depth cahrt.

The gap between Zadorov and a guy like Derek Forbort who will probably go for close to the league min does not justify that . The Canucks are already paying one 4-5 left-side dman decent money in Soucy,

I'd like the Canucks to spend on another impact defenseman (Sanheim?) and fill the remainder out with cheap depth guys like Forbort or Justin Schultz or Jalen Chatfield. Something like:

Hughes (7.9m) - Hrone (7.5m)
Soucy (3.25m) - Sanheim (6.25m)
Forbort (1m) - Chatfield (1.25m)
Wolanin (775k) - Juulsen (775k)

Much better way to spend $28M imo.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Think you're underpaying Tanev by at least a million (look to the Holl contract as a floor for Tanev), but more egregious is the Zadorov money given his spot on the depth cahrt.

The gap between Zadorov and a guy like Derek Forbort who will probably go for close to the league min does not justify that . The Canucks are already paying one 4-5 left-side dman decent money in Soucy,

I'd like the Canucks to spend on another impact defenseman (Sanheim?) and fill the remainder out with cheap depth guys like Forbort or Justin Schultz or Jalen Chatfield. Something like:

Hughes (7.9m) - Hrone (7.5m)
Soucy (3.25m) - Sanheim (6.25m)
Forbort (1m) - Chatfield (1.25m)
Wolanin (775k) - Juulsen (775k)

Much better way to spend $28M imo.

Re: Tanev, I can definitely see another team offering more, that is why I said it is no gaurantee that he, or Zadorov or Hronek signs for what I proposed. It was just an educated guess in order to set a budget. If Tanev is asking for more than $3m, I'll pass, especially if he also wants term as well.

My reasoning for signing Zadorov at that cap hit is because I don't see either him nor Soucy as an ideal 2nd pairing guy. They can play there for stretches but they are more #4/5 type. So I'm kind of filling out the 2nd and 3rd pairing LSD by committee between them. As added bonus is they can both play on the right side as well, if needed (or so I read), so that gives some flexibility.

Sanheim will cost assets to acquire, and judging by his age and recent production, as well as the Flyers standing in the playoff picture, it won't be cheap. I rather use those assets to get a 1W if possible.

I also think Chatfield will come in a little higher than 1.25m, but if he is willing to sign for that amount I'll happily take him for the 3rd RSD position.

Can't wait until EP2 and Willander comes in on ELC and provide some much needed flexibility.

 

[arttk]

Think you're underpaying Tanev by at least a million (look to the Holl contract as a floor for Tanev), but more egregious is the Zadorov money given his spot on the depth cahrt.

The gap between Zadorov and a guy like Derek Forbort who will probably go for close to the league min does not justify that . The Canucks are already paying one 4-5 left-side dman decent money in Soucy,

I'd like the Canucks to spend on another impact defenseman (Sanheim?) and fill the remainder out with cheap depth guys like Forbort or Justin Schultz or Jalen Chatfield. Something like:

Hughes (7.9m) - Hrone (7.5m)
Soucy (3.25m) - Sanheim (6.25m)
Forbort (1m) - Chatfield (1.25m)
Wolanin (775k) - Juulsen (775k)

Much better way to spend $28M imo.

sanheim will cost a bunch of assets I imagine.
If they do end up trading for him, we can still afford to extend Z

 

[Brookbank]

So can we please retire the "we still need to add a top pair D man" comment from here and Twitter ?

 

[HockeyWooot]

Not rebuilt but a nice job vs last year's defensive group.

Hughes Bear
OEL Myers
Burroughs Schenn
Stillman

vs

Hughes Hronek
Cole Soucy
Zadorov Myers
Friedman

Still more to be done. I agree with the notion that a contender should ideally have 3 top pairing calibre dmen.

For us the question is do we invest in a prime level player now (eg a Hanafin, Pesce etc) or a stop gap (eg a Tanev) to hold down the fort until Willander is NHL ready. I'm guessing it'll be the latter.