Brad Treliving is doing a great job.

Mess

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Yes. If Dubas did such a great job, he would have left a huge number of valuable players behind. He didn’t do a particularly good job of drafting or developing, and he mostly acquired UFAs who left. It’s not surprising that he didn’t leave many good pieces behind.

In fact Treliving has been doing a good job of getting the damage of Dubas out of this roster.. Let the Clueless Dubas cleansing continue.

Even in the playoffs 3 of Dubas so called top 6 Dmen in Giordano, Brodie and Conor Timmins all sat in the pressbox replaced by Simon Benoit, Joel Edmundson & Ilya Lyubushkin.

They started with Samsonov in goal and faced numerous losses before they turned to Joseph Woll (a Lou Lam pick) to try and save them only again forced back to Sammy for the final death blow out of the playoffs where he lost 4 games recorded a 3.01 GAA and 896 sv%,

The mighty John Tavares and his cap busting $11 mil salary recorded 1 goal and 1 assists and now Leafs are trying to and can't get out of that contract fast enough.

Sheldon Keefe the coach is also on death's door and hopefully replaced by end of week.

At the end of the day Treliving couldn't overcome all of Dubas landmines and pitfalls he left behind, but as of now there is very little left or will be left much longer.
 
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LeafSteel

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Hi there -- thanks for taking the time to reply and for the thought put into the detailed critique. With respect, I feel like it might just be a miscommunication on a few of these points, which is likely down to me being too longwinded.

On the first point, I guess I'd just reiterate that I find it strange that Dubas has/had such dedicated support from a small number of fans while finding it far less strange that lots of people dislike/hate/blame him (and not really sure what you mean by the quote in the second half of that point, I'm afraid!). I think the fact that this is still happening a year later along with blanket criticisms of Treliving is bewildering. That said, if Treliving gets canned this week, I'll move on and hope for the best from the next GM.

As for Hyman in the second point, I was referring to letting him walk in free agency to the Oilers.

Third point: Fair point, I wasn't trying to defend the 'old boy' approach at all, so apologies for implying I did. I fully admit I'm a dinosaur and over two decades removed from my years in the media/player rep side of things so my insider knowledge of the ways things work became obsolete a very long time ago.

Last point, again, fair point. I don't post much but when I do I tend to waffle on. That said, I think that, overall, my sheer verbiage must still pale in comparison!

Thanks again for reading and considering my points.
I enjoyed your posts.

You should post more often.

Cheers
 

LeafSteel

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Mar 5, 2014
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Why good posters waste their time responding to a couple of talking heads, I will never know.

I can’t even be bothered to read the drivel that they post, unless I need a laugh. None of it is authentic nor coming from a place of true Maple Leaf fandom, so why bother?

Life is too short to waste on people who talk out of both sides of their mouths and it all sounds like blah blah blah.

While I salute the patience, effort, and self restraint, I still think it’s all just feeding a couple of trolls.
 

sunstersun

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May 12, 2017
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I hate Rielly's contract. If we can get out of it now, we should.

There's a lot of room to work. We get out of the Kampf contract, Brodie, Marner and eventually Tavares. In my eye enough to work a #1 D and a top 6 forward.

We need picks, we need young D talent.

IDK about you guys, but I trust Knies to be a top 6 guy next year.

Final point about the core 4: Fundamentally the they weren't good enough. I don't think it's about being top heavy, or lacking grit, or defenceman, or goaltending. Outside of Nylander, in the playoffs Matthews, Marner, and Tavares are underperforming their contract by a lot.
 

Petrus

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In fact Treliving has been doing a good job of getting the damage of Dubas out of this roster..

Even in the playoffs 3 of Dubas so called top 6 Dmen in Giordano, Brodie and Conor Timmins all sat in the pressbox replaced by Simon Benoit, Joel Edmundson & Ilya Lyubushkin.

They started with Samsonov in goal and faced numerous losses before they turned to Joseph Woll (a Lou Lam pick) to try and save them only again forced back to Sammy for the final death blow out of the playoffs where he lost 4 games recorded a 3.01 GAA and 896 sv%,

The mighty John Tavares and his cap busting $11 mil salary recorded 1 goal and 1 assists and now Leafs are trying to and can't get out of that contract fast enough.

Sheldon Keefe the coach is also on death's door and hopefully replaced by end of week.

At the end of the day Treliving couldn't overcome all of Dubas landmines and pitfalls he left behind, but as of now there is very little left or will be left much longer.

Don’t forget all the NMCs kicking in all at once for Willy, Matty and Marner to coincide with Dubas’ expiring contract.

All done so Dubas can extract as much leverage as he can from MLSE (in my opinion).

Dubas is the worse thing to happen to this Franchise. He is such a fraud.
 
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Petrus

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(Apologies for the length of this post...obviously, feel free to skip or ignore!)

Well, it seems like Defense for Dubas has gone supernova during the dying days of the season. There's been plenty of hot gas spewed out over the years but perhaps they will finally lose some energy as their shining star fades into the background. Now, I hope you don't mind me indulging myself a bit with a retrospective, as I've slowly moved towards becoming a Treliving supporter and I think analysing the support he gets -- or doesn't get -- as GM (the title of this thread) goes hand-in-hand and overlaps with his predecessor and the attacks against him by Dubas apologists. So, I'm going to take some time to look back on what I've long considered to be the strange and curious Dubasite phenomenon after having observed it on HFBoards for years (mostly) from the periphery.

Why strange and curious? Well, to start, just look at the vast number of posts and the sheer verbiage defending all things Dubas from the small cabal of prolific posters who we're all too familiar with. The time, energy and emotion required is significant. But, how can anyone truly CARE so much for a GM? So much frantic intensity, so many hours typing out lengthy, anonymised arguments defending a GM who:
- is a stranger who doesn't know they exist
- stopped playing organised hockey at age 14
- was given his first job in management as a nepotism hire by the team his dad and grandfather worked for
- few people outside of the Soo ever heard of before he became Leafs Assistant GM
- is not a former player or coach

Please note I'm not rendering judgement (yet) on how good a job Dubas did or didn't do as Leafs GM. I'm pointing out how Dubas' pedigree is seemingly lacking in qualities that make him an obvious choice for such loyal fandom. Please also note I haven't mentioned the most glaring reason Dubas' detractors point to: the disparity between regular season success and playoff failure. This is something that arguably comes after the zealotry had already started to ramp up. For me, it's always been far easier to comprehend why Dubas became and still is scorned by many Leafs fans and pundits.

Perhaps the fandom started, therefore, simply because he was young, photogenic and had successfully marketed himself as having newfangled ideas -- he was hockey's Billy Beane, according to the publicity of the time. Dubas was presented to us as being proficient with fresh-faced analytics and as not reliant on the failed tactics of bumpy-knuckled, gap-toothed old boys (like yours truly). Analytics undoubtedly can be interesting and useful in sports. 'Moneyball' is a good book and an even better movie, but it exaggerates the role of analytics in the onfield success of the A's in those years and understates the contributions of established star players and experienced coaches. Analytics are a pivotal part of NHL teams' approaches, no doubt, but I think it's also vital to have people running a team who personally know what it's like to bleed on the bench. Dubas doesn't. He also always struck me as being a bit shallow and, frankly, fairly juvenile and cliched in the way he articulated himself. Is he shrewder in private? Possibly, although the circumstances of his firing suggest otherwise. Outwardly at least, Treliving appears wiser, less attention-seeking and much more down-to-earth to me -- he seems like he's more of a real hockey guy who's actually been in the trenches.

But, ultimately, it shouldn't be about personalities. We should focus on actual (not just expected!) outcomes, as well as on consistent team success (especially in the post-season) when judging a GM's performance. Of course, the playoff failures are a matter of record. But, for me, Dubas was mediocre at best in the role throughout his tenure, and not just because of the lack of playoff success. The whole Marner contract saga -- the negotiations, the number/term and the aftermath -- sickened me and soured me on Dubas (and on Marner and his camp) in the early going. I grudgingly accepted suspension-machine Kadri probably had to go at the time but hated the soft return. I cringed at the Foligno, Mrazek and Murray moves. I despaired at losing Hyman. Many of us will remember the discussion thread here on Dubas' supposed best moments a while back; I recall a notable absence of posts in there advocating for Dubas' best moves as GM. To this day, I'm not sure what anyone here, particularly his most ardent supporters, would agree on as his 'greatest' move: is it the Muzzin trade, before injuries took their toll? That would get my vote -- it wasn't Dubas' fault he broke down. Is it getting Schenn, O'Reilly and Acciari last year for a few weeks? I liked all three (especially the prodigal son Schenn) but who knows for certain if Dubas could have retained any of them -- I tend to doubt it given the contracts they got elsewhere. Late Dubas-era adds McCabe and Knies are promising and so he deserves credit for both; McCabe is turning into a real beauty, and Knies too, but any continued/future success for both will be developed on Treliving's watch and within his system. So, given the lack of pro hockey experience in his pedigree, the utter lack of playoff success during his tenure, the contract overpayments, the trades for damaged goods and the relative dearth of long-term character, why the never-say-die, past and ongoing Defense for Dubas?

Because of what I saw as the absence of bona fide reasons to become a vocal supporter of Dubas, I was for a long time bewildered by how Dubas could gain such persistent, unconditional fandom when GM/executives like HoF legends Steve Yzerman, Joe Sakic, Rob Blake, Ron Francis, Cam Neely and, yes, Brendan Shanahan have never seemed to be granted the same level of adulation in their current roles. So, I have now come to agree with some of the veteran posters I follow here about how this strange and curious phenomenon was/is actually never about Dubas' qualities. It's simply just about a few attention-seeking posters needing validation -- something commonly found on millions of discussion forums about a zillion different topics, I suppose. For some, the need to say 'I'm right, you're wrong' is a potent stimulus. I would argue that, as Dubas' reputation tanked and the consensus went against him, the few who had fallen for him needed to double down and thus 'Dubasite' entered the lexicon in Leafland.

I tested this theory a while back with a couple of my own posts, which predictably prompted some hyper-emotional reactions about Shanahan and Treliving, depicting the former as an impulsive backstabber who was completely unjustified in firing Dubas, justifying calling the latter a clown from the day he was hired and before he'd made a move as GM, and demonstrating constant fealty to the Defense for Dubas above all. Therefore, in my opinion, the most likely explanation is that fragile egos (and a seemingly limitless amount of spare time!) fuel much of the tedious, strange and curious Dubasite phenomenon.

(I'm grateful to anyone who had the patience to read this -- and thanks in advance for any responses. Hopefully we'll see some significant changes this offseason and I, for one, would like to see Treliving back).


Thank you for this. I very much enjoyed reading your post.
 
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notbias

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In fact Treliving has been doing a good job of getting the damage of Dubas out of this roster..

Even in the playoffs 3 of Dubas so called top 6 Dmen in Giordano, Brodie and Conor Timmins all sat in the pressbox replaced by Simon Benoit, Joel Edmundson & Ilya Lyubushkin.

One less round was won this year, good job Brad.

They started with Samsonov in goal and faced numerous losses before they turned to Joseph Woll (a Lou Lam pick) to try and save them only again forced back to Sammy for the final death blow out of the playoffs where he lost 4 games recorded a 3.01 GAA and 896 sv%,

Sammy was re-signed by Treliving... this is always glossed over.

Woll was re-signed by Dubas just so you know.

If you want to just start assigning players drafted to each GM, then all the playoff failures are Lou's fault.

The mighty John Tavares and his cap busting $11 mil salary recorded 1 goal and 1 assists and now Leafs are trying to and can't get out of that contract fast enough.

Sheldon Keefe the coach is also on death's door and hopefully replaced by end of week.

At the end of the day Treliving couldn't overcome all of Dubas landmines and pitfalls he left behind, but as of now there is very little left or will be left much longer.

Treliving regressed the team, he made the team worse, unless, the results don't matter anymore?
 
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notDatsyuk

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In response to a comment trying to absolve the GM of his failures by attributing our regular season drop off to worse seasons by core players, I pointed out that the core 4 collectively scored more than ever. How each one did individually wasn't all that important to the discussion. I was in fact the one adding the context, after the poster attempted to look only at the core players that did worse, while leaving out the core players that did better, to paint the wrong picture.
The poster very specifically said Marner and Tavares. You tried to bluff your way out by moving the goalposts, and got called on it. Now you're trying again.
 

PromisedLand

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Hold up. So BT had autonomy with the team once Dubas left, but Dubas did not have autonomy to make his changes?

You've gone from goal post shifts to full blown logical fallacies, contradictions and the reframing of the realities you swear up and down exist.

Dekes you've evolved from dekes to the big bang.

there are handful of posters who ruin every thread with dubas ass kissing. it would be better if posters don't engage with them

They don't care about Leafs.

Dubas was absolutely incompetent piece of trash as far as I am concerned that was purged. Things are only going to get better as this team and franchise gets rid of other "dubas" type garbage away from the Leafs.
 

Dreakmur

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One less round was won this year, good job Brad.

How many future assets did Dubas pay to win those two extra games?

Sammy was re-signed by Treliving... this is always glossed over.

He took him to arbitration because he didn’t feel comfortable signing a longer term contract. He nailed that.

Woll was re-signed by Dubas just so you know.

Signing a prospect to a contract is basic work.

If you want to just start assigning players drafted to each GM, then all the playoff failures are Lou's fault.

Who did Lou even draft on the current roster? Matthews, Woll, and Liljegren?


Treliving regressed the team, he made the team worse, unless, the results don't matter anymore?

Results do matter, and so does context.

All the guys Tre brought in played well in the playoffs. It was mostly the core 5 and Samsonov that didn’t pull their weight (with some legitimate excuses).
 

PromisedLand

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Getting this thread on topic:

Treliving just has to RETOOL for two consecutive years IMO. This summer; and then next summer when both Tavares and Marner are off the cap.

I hope Treliving doesn't sign Marner and ideally convinces him to waive so we can do a sign and trade; or worse lets him walk as a UFA

Tavares' 11 AAV coming off the cap would be a blessing.

Thats 22 million that can be put to good use in 2025-2026 season.

Time to build on the players that did step up in the playoffs
- Benoit, McCabe, Knies, Holmberg (thought he played decent), re-sign Edmundson, extend Liljegren 1 yr (he has arbitration), re-sign Dewar, this summer just invest time in finding a goalie first and foremost (am still not sold on Woll completely).

I believe we will try see a FULL TRELIVING team in 2025-2026 season so until then just buckle down and even if we miss playoffs next season because we have 4 forwards making 11 AAV+ thats fine just think of it as 2 steps back to take 16 steps forwards ;)
 
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notbias

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How many future assets did Dubas pay to win those two extra games?

We still regressed, you'd think bringing in all the "playoff types" would help offset this (still spent 6 picks, even if they were lower).

He took him to arbitration because he didn’t feel comfortable signing a longer term contract. He nailed that.

So he wanted to re-sign him, just for one year? Still re-signed him, he liked what he say.

Signing a prospect to a contract is basic work.

I'll agree with that for the most part, but that wasn't the discussion, the person was implying Lou should get credit for drafting Woll.

Who did Lou even draft on the current roster? Matthews, Woll, and Liljegren?

Marner as well (everyone's favourite).

Results do matter, and so does context.

Context only started to matter this year it appears.

All the guys Tre brought in played well in the playoffs. It was mostly the core 5 and Samsonov that didn’t pull their weight (with some legitimate excuses).

We will disagree on who played well, but I believe our best players were Woll, Knies, Matthews, Domi, and Nylander.

Treliving was responsible for 1.

Some guys he brought in had good series (Lub and Benoit), but the guys who led the team are above.
 

Dreakmur

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We still regressed.

So you think it was worth the multiple 1st and 2nd round picks to completely revamp the team with UFAs at the deadline?

So he wanted to re-sign him, just for one year? Still re-signed him, he liked what he say.

Maybe. My guess is that he didn’t see any better options, but also didn’t trust Samsonov long term.

I'll agree with that for the most part, but that wasn't the discussion, the person was implying Lou should get credit for drafting Woll.

👍

Marner as well (everyone's favourite).

He was drafted before Lou, no? That was when Hunter and Dubas did their co-GM draft with Hunter in charge of the pucks, right?

Context only started to matter this year it appears.

It’s always mattered.

We will disagree on who played well, but I believe our best players were Woll, Knies, Matthews, Domi, and Nylander.

Bertuzzi co-led the team in scoring. Lyubushkin co-led the defense in scoring. Edmundson and Benoit both played solid.

Some guys he brought in had good series (Lub and Benoit), but the guys who led the team are above.

we lost for the same reason we always lose. Our 40 million dollars in offence doesn’t produce enough. The depth and support was better than most previous teams, only rivalled by last year’s.
 
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Dekes For Days

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The poster very specifically said Marner and Tavares.
Yes, the poster did say Marner and Tavares. They only included the core players that had contributed less, while leaving out the core players that contributed more, and that led them to the wrong conclusion about the impacts on our record. So I included Matthews and Nylander, just as you did. If you have an issue with what I did (for some unexplainable reason), you would logically have an issue with what you did yourself. It's the exact same. You just went an extra step that wasn't important to the discussion (and likely would have resulted in further required clarification about the overall impacts), by separating them out.
 

Shooter2x

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I didn't expect such a drastic increase in physicality in just 1 off season.

This allows Tre to focus on upgrading Lils spot which requires high level skill and puck movement.

Given the initial state, it's not too wild to think the fix required 2 seasons. The word extinct is an understatement for the starting state of both skill and physicality on the backend. To expect Tre to fix both in his first year would be wild and troll worthy.

Excited for next season if we can finally add that 1 skill guy were missing on the backend while also maintaining punishing those who come near our net or skate in with their head down
 

Evilhomer

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I didn't expect such a drastic increase in physicality in just 1 off season.

This allows Tre to focus on upgrading Lils spot which requires high level skill and puck movement.

Given the initial state, it's not too wild to think the fix required 2 seasons. The word extinct is an understatement for the starting state of both skill and physicality on the backend. To expect Tre to fix both in his first year would be wild and troll worthy.

Excited for next season if we can finally add that 1 skill guy were missing on the backend while also maintaining punishing those who come near our net or skate in with their head down
The physicality stuff is so overrated. Neither Dallas and Colorado, nor Rangers and Carolina, were pounding on each last night. What they were doing was scoring goals, including lots of power play goals.
 

Shooter2x

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The physicality stuff is so overrated. Neither Dallas and Colorado, nor Rangers and Carolina, were pounding on each last night. What they were doing was scoring goals, including lots of power play goals.

The year Leafs can finally transfer their regular season scoring to playoffs coupled with this new physcial style...those 4 teams you just mentioned wouldn't stand a chance against us. But keep preaching on what you think is fact.
 
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DarkKnight

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there are handful of posters who ruin every thread with dubas ass kissing. it would be better if posters don't engage with them

They don't care about Leafs.

Dubas was absolutely incompetent piece of trash as far as I am concerned that was purged. Things are only going to get better as this team and franchise gets rid of other "dubas" type garbage away from the Leafs.
And then use words like "objective". I just marvel at that the lack of self awareness.
 

Tak7

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Tre also got slapped a bit by an anomoly we never witnessed before: All 3 top players hurt to some extent for the entire round 1.
When your cap is as poorly structured as it is now, you'll always be left susceptible to an illness, or injury, or a dip in performance being completely fatal.

They can't keep trying this going forward. It doesn't work.

The year Leafs can finally transfer their regular season scoring to playoffs coupled with this new physcial style...those 4 teams you just mentioned wouldn't stand a chance against us. But keep preaching on what you think is fact.
Dallas, Colorado, and the Rangers are significantly better teams than the Leafs, top to bottom.

Let's stop pretending that the Leafs are a few goals away - they aren't.
 

Shooter2x

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When your cap is as poorly structured as it is now, you'll always be left susceptible to an illness, or injury, or a dip in performance being completely fatal.

They can't keep trying this going forward. It doesn't work.


Dallas, Colorado, and the Rangers are significantly better teams than the Leafs, top to bottom.

Let's stop pretending that the Leafs are a few goals away - they aren't.
Losing by 1 goal is literally being a few goals away.

Offence let us down again but the ceiling is sky high if we can sync the goals with the new compete level.
 
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Jojalu

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Why good posters waste their time responding to a couple of talking heads, I will never know.

I can’t even be bothered to read the drivel that they post, unless I need a laugh. None of it is authentic nor coming from a place of true Maple Leaf fandom, so why bother?

Life is too short to waste on people who talk out of both sides of their mouths and it all sounds like blah blah blah.

While I salute the patience, effort, and self restraint, I still think it’s all just feeding a couple of trolls.
Meh

I think people just have different opinions.

I find it just as strange that people hate Dubas, as I find it strange people still defend him.

Life would be boring without fringe ideas. Maybe it is just me. I can listen to someone try to explain to me the earth is flat for hours while I roll my eyes
 
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DarkKnight

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Games 5-7 showed they have the ability to compete, which we haven’t seen in years, and if they had a few more pulling the rope they’d be playing in round two.
Every former player that covers the team has noted a different flavour to the Leafs. The players in the room noted. The coach Dubas picked said it. The American networks, you name it. And then there is 5 Dubists here who simply can't compute that we were more competitive. Nobody is arguing for goons, you need SKILL first, but you need to clear the net, negate the forwards on the boards, slow them down through the neutral zone, all things any dunce knows is winning hockey and we started to actually see it.

Anyone can cobble together a counter to everything, it doesn't mean it has any real weight. There is a reason nobody is calling for Tre's head, because they aren't Dube lovers, they're hockey people.
 

Shooter2x

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Every former player that covers the team has noted a different flavour to the Leafs. The players in the room noted. The coach Dubas picked said it. The American networks, you name it. And there is 5 Dubists here who simply can't compute that we were more competitive. Nobody is arguing for goons, you need SKILL first, but you to clear the net, negate the forwards on the boards, slow them down through the neutral zone, all things any dunce knows is winning hockey and we started to actually see it.

Anyone can cobble together a counter to everything, it doesn't mean it has any real weight. There is a reason nobody is calling for Tre's head, because they aren't Dube lovers, their hockey people.
Feels like a method actor act at this point.
 

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