Brad Park vs Mark Howe

[The Macho King]

Even if you exclude Park, whose Norris count has been seriously Orr'd, all these other defensemen were Chelios's contemporaries... and he beat them all.

Park's Norris count might be Orr'd, but the placements are equally benefited from the dearth of high-quality Dmen after him and Orr.

So yeah, but for Orr he has a few Norris trophies, and but for no one else he probably has fewer high Norris/AS finishes.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Park for prime, rather easily. Maybe it would be different if Howe could have strung together more healthy seasons, but fact is, he didn't.

Norris records:

Brad Park

69-70: 2nd
70-71: 2nd
71-72: 2nd
72-73: 3rd
73-74: 2nd
74-75: 8th
75-76: 2nd
77-78: 2nd
78-79: 8th
80-81: 9th

Mark Howe

79-80: 5th
80-81: 11th
82-83: 2nd
84-85: 6th
85-86: 2nd
86-87: 2nd
87-88: 9th

I'm not even sure Howe's best season measures up to Brad Park's.

Park is one of the very few defensemen in history to ever finish top 10 in NHL scoring - finishing 9th in 1973-74. And he did it the hard way - leading his team in scoring - 1973-74 New York Rangers Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Park, but I think the disparity in All-Star selections makes it seem like a bigger gap than it is. Usually the league is deep enough that players don’t receive Norris nominations when they miss 16 or 24 or 26 games.

Was there really a big gap in terms of the depth of competition between the two? Both started out against weak competition - early 70s*/early 80s, and ended against strong competition (late 70s, late 80s).

*past Orr obviously

 

[Neutrinos]

Just based on the number of teams/players in the league during their respective careers, Howe had more competition for the Norris than Park did

 

[PepeBostones]

I like Mark Howe alot but I don't think he was a better allround defenseman than Chris Chelios and certainly not better than Brad Park. Park was in Denis Potvin class. Just a notch behind Ray Bourque. Remember Park leading Team Canada along with Phil Esposito in the classic series against Russia in 1972.
The display of defense played by Park in that series is remarkable.
Park wins this one easily. Park is a top ten all-time defenseman. Maybe even top five.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Was there really a big gap in terms of the depth of competition between the two? Both started out against weak competition - early 70s*/early 80s, and ended against strong competition (late 70s, late 80s).

*past Orr obviously

the voters lost their minds when carlyle got a norris but the early 80s wasn’t weak competition imo.

bourque, 90-125 pt coffey, peak langway, later potvin and robinson. that’s actually tougher competition than the second half of the 80s, when macinnis and chelios weren’t macinnis and chelios until 89 and stevens wasn’t really stevens yet either. of course late 80s bourque > early 80s bourque but we’re talking about the guys below park/howe, not above them.

the early 70s, when park was at his absolute best, was a wasteland. nothing like the early 80s.

 

[Boxscore]

Park wins this one easily. Park is a top ten all-time defenseman. Maybe even top five.

I do think Park wins. And I love Park--but I don't think there's a justification of having him top-5 all-time. Top-10, sure, I can see that. The man was runner up to six Norris trophies. But I can't put him above...

Orr
Bourque
Potvin
Harvey
Lidstrom
Shore

... and that's before the muddy waters. But he's in the mud with the Kellys, Robinsons, Coffeys, Fetisovs, etc.

 

[blogofmike]

Mark Howe was a beast in the mid 1980s.

Can someone who has the numbers run the on-off GF/GA ratio for Howe in 1986?

Then run the best Bobby Orr season and let us know the numbers.

 

[The Panther]

Mark Howe was a beast in the mid 1980s.

Can someone who has the numbers run the on-off GF/GA ratio for Howe in 1986?

Then run the best Bobby Orr season and let us know the numbers.

Mark Howe's big season, goals-on/off-wise, was 1985-86, when Philly finished 2nd overall to Edmonton (they'd been 1st the year prior).

In 1985-86, Howe was +87 (the late Brad McCrimmon, his partner, was +86), which led the NHL.

His total on-ice goals-for vs. goals-against was:
185 - 89
And you deleted PP-goals against from that, it becomes:
185 - 54

Bobby Orr's biggest goals-for/against season (bearing in mind he had four seasons of +80 or higher) was 1970-71, when Orr famously went +124.

His total on-ice goals-for vs. goals-against was:
258 - 85
And you deleted PP-goals against from that, it becomes:
258 - 55

So, basically, Orr's defensive result was exactly the same as Howe's, but his offense was about a goal per game "on ice" higher.

Of course, this is slightly mitigated by Boston's completely destroying the entire League offensively in 1970-71 (over a lot of recent expansion teams), which wasn't the case in 1985-86. Still, I would guess that in terms of goals-for / against (which I did an analysis of in a previous thread a couple years ago), Orr's 1970-71 is the most one-way, ice-tilting season in modern NHL history.

 

[The Panther]

(Note regarding my post above):

The thread I was referring to was actually nearly four years ago, and it's here:
Best ever Player's Season Goal-Differential

 

[blogofmike]

By my quick math Howe's r-on/off was 3.03.

1971 Bobby Orr's was a 2.48.

Estimates here:

	Total	ESGF	PPGF	SHGF	Total	ESGA	PPGA	SHGA	ES Ratio
86 Flyers	335	227	91	17	241	161	71	9	1.41
Howe	185	131	44	10	89	50	35	4	2.62
not Howe	150	96	47	7	152	111	36	5	0.86

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

	Total GF	ESGF	PPGF	SHGF	Total GA	ESGA	PPGA	SHGA	ES Ratio
71 Bruins	399	294	80	25	207	150	53	4	1.96
Orr	258	165	79	14	85	51	30	4	3.24
not Orr	141	129	1	11	122	99	23	0	1.30

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Gambitman]

I’ve always been curious about Howe’s switch from forward to defence. Did he play defence in junior? What would compel a coach to switch a very good forward to defence?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

another question is, what would mark howe's career have looked like if he hadn't gone to the WHA?

would he have been drafted higher? did teams know he wasn't likely to come over so they didn't draft him in the first round? i figure as an eventual hall of famer who was already a point/game player in the WHA as a teenager, with his dad's last name to boot, he probably would have been a very high pick. but i don't really know.

and what if he had actually joined the bruins out of the '74 draft? would he have been moved to defence sooner? would it have been like a doug mohns situation where they put him where they needed him? could he have put those late 70s park/ratelle teams over the top? is bourque/park/howe/mccrimmon/o'connell/milbury/redmond potentially the deepest d of all time?

 

[Michael Farkas]

I’ve always been curious about Howe’s switch from forward to defence. Did he play defence in junior? What would compel a coach to switch a very good forward to defence?

He was trying to extend his career as I recall. It didn't go very well. Not that he didn't continue to have a great career, he just wasn't a great defenseman. Lateral and back skating limitations...

 

[wetcoast]

He was trying to extend his career as I recall. It didn't go very well. Not that he didn't continue to have a great career, he just wasn't a great defenseman. Lateral and back skating limitations...

This doesn't sound right as he switched to defense at the old age of 24.

Mark Howe Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

There was another thread about him, or maybe in some of the all time threads, that he actually played some defense before the NHL.

Mark Howe's positional switch and award voting

Custance: Mark Howe wasn't just Gordie's son, he is Hall-worthy in his own right

When Mark was 14 years old, he was leading his youth league in scoring and had every intention of continuing his father's legacy as an NHL forward. But one of his coaches pulled him aside and told him he was going to be a great NHL defenseman. The Junior A coach's name was Carl Lindstrom, and he was spot on.
"I thought he was loony bin," Howe said.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

I’ve always been curious about Howe’s switch from forward to defence. Did he play defence in junior? What would compel a coach to switch a very good forward to defence?

Pretty much every beer league team Ive played with will switch their best skaters to defence when the need arises. All of the basic hockey skills (skating, puck control, passing, defensive play) need to be at least good to play defence well, its not a sport like soccer where you can put your weakest players there and have it work out well.

Conversely, you can put players that can barely play in a wing slot, tell them to pick up their check, go to the net, etc, etc, and unless youre playing a team that really outclasses yours most observers wouldnt notice much wrong.

It obviously isnt that simple the as the level of competition increases and players specialize a lot, but as a rule defencemen who play big minutes and centres almost always have to be the best overall players on your team no matter what level you play at

 

[Michael Farkas]

This doesn't sound right as he switched to defense at the old age of 24.

Mark Howe Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

There was another thread about him, or maybe in some of the all time threads, that he actually played some defense before the NHL.

Mark Howe's positional switch and award voting

Custance: Mark Howe wasn't just Gordie's son, he is Hall-worthy in his own right

Not Mark, Gordie....

It's possible I misread the conversation...