Brad Park vs Mark Howe

[Neutrinos]

Who was better?

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[koyvoo]

Park

 

[Moose Head]

Peaks were similar, but Park had more elite years, so Park.

 

[wetcoast]

Going with Park here but truth be told it's alot closer than people will give Howe credit for.

 

[Sadekuuro]

At their peaks I'd take Howe, but I don't see all that much daylight between them either.

 

[Boxscore]

Mark Howe was phenomenal. I think this is extremely close, yet Park would be considered greater by historians.

 

[GreatGordie9]

I would take Howe. Don't forget he converted from a forward to defense.

 

[Boxscore]

I would take Howe. Don't forget he converted from a forward to defense.

True. Mark Howe was not the very best at any particular skill, but he had no weakness to his game. Defense, offense, physical play, positioning, leadership, anticipation, intangibles. Howe was a gem.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Park, but I think the disparity in All-Star selections makes it seem like a bigger gap than it is. Usually the league is deep enough that players don’t receive Norris nominations when they miss 16 or 24 or 26 games.

 

[crobro]

Howe for me. Howe was an Elite Skater and was right up there with Coffey,Wilson,Bourque up to the mid 80’s.

 

[SealsFan]

Pretty much a toss-up for me, I like 'em both...

 

[Big Phil]

I see Park a bit closer to Chelios than I do to Howe. When I rank the defensemen Chelios is usually in my top 10 while Park is one who misses the cut but isn't far off. Park was losing the Norris in years that I don't think others win it either. With respect to Howe it took them an unexplained long time to induct him into the HHOF. I have no idea why he wasn't thought to be a lock cinch upon retirment. I remember him being a constant name brought up on here before he finally got in back in 2011. I can't think of why it took him so long other than maybe a grudge against him being in the WHA? But like Tremblay he played his best years in the NHL. So I don't know.

I like Park better because I think he carried his teams better. I would want him carrying my team if I had the choice.

 

[57special]

Park.

 

[The Panther]

I watched Chelios a lot during his Montreal / Chicago days, and I liked his game a lot. That said, I do think he's over-rated on this Forum (my general impression). The media narrative went a little overboard when he got to Chicago, and that plus his winning days in Detroit and impressive longevity have elevated him a little beyond his actual level, I think. I personally would take Mark Howe over Chelios.

 

[wetcoast]

I watched Chelios a lot during his Montreal / Chicago days, and I liked his game a lot. That said, I do think he's over-rated on this Forum (my general impression). The media narrative went a little overboard when he got to Chicago, and that plus his winning days in Detroit and impressive longevity have elevated him a little beyond his actual level, I think. I personally would take Mark Howe over Chelios.

Mark Howe or Chelios....mmm harder choice than it might appear on the surface.

 

[baudib1]

Mark Howe is criminally underrated by history.

For starters the Flyers of that era are underrated. They were first, second and second in the league in points from 1985-87, finishing second to the Oilers twice. They were stopped from winning the Cup by the Gretzky Oilers at their peak twice, taking them to Game 7 in one of those tries without their leading goal scorer, and by the death of their goaltender.

Howe's the best player on that team, by a pretty wide margin. This team is very obviously better than quite a number of SC winners, as few teams are good enough to get to the Finals twice in three years, and losing to the Oilers is nothing to be ashamed about. For a team of that quality to not have 2+ Hall of Famers is very unusual.

For instance, the Brad Park teams that lost in the Finals had Jean Ratelle, and a very very old John Bucyk, and an old Gary Cheevers. Plus a 998 point scorer in Rick Middleton. The Caps teams that won Presidents Trophies had an all-time great in Ovechkin and Nicklas Backstrom.

The Flyers only had Howe. Brian Propp is close to a Hall of Famer, and I might argue he should be in, and Rick Tocchet is close to a Hall of Famer, and maybe he'll get in one day, but he was very far from his peak in those years.

Howe led the league in plus-minus at plus-87, which is one of the highest marks of all time. The only players to record a better number are Gretzky, Larry Robinson and Bobby Orr. Obviously it's a flawed stat, but that's nice company to be in. And it doesn't even take into account how good he was on special teams, where he was the QB of a lethal power play and the bedrock of a PK that was near the top in the league for many years (along with Propp and Poulin).

Howe wasn't durable, and didn't have the insane longevity of Chelios. But Chelios, at his best, was no more than basically an equal of guys like Stevens, MacInnis, Leetch, maybe a half-step below those guys. And definitely a step below Bourque and Lidstrom.

 

[The Panther]

I think M. Howe's legacy rep suffers from three things:
-- son of Gordie
-- started career for years in WHA
-- started career as forward

 

[Sentinel]

Somehow I did not expect this thread to become about bashing Chelios.

 

[tony d]

I went with Brad Park.

 

[Moose Head]

Somehow I did not expect this thread to become about bashing Chelios.

Mark Howe is criminally underrated by history.

For starters the Flyers of that era are underrated. They were first, second and second in the league in points from 1985-87, finishing second to the Oilers twice. They were stopped from winning the Cup by the Gretzky Oilers at their peak twice, taking them to Game 7 in one of those tries without their leading goal scorer, and by the death of their goaltender.

Howe's the best player on that team, by a pretty wide margin. This team is very obviously better than quite a number of SC winners, as few teams are good enough to get to the Finals twice in three years, and losing to the Oilers is nothing to be ashamed about. For a team of that quality to not have 2+ Hall of Famers is very unusual.

For instance, the Brad Park teams that lost in the Finals had Jean Ratelle, and a very very old John Bucyk, and an old Gary Cheevers. Plus a 998 point scorer in Rick Middleton. The Caps teams that won Presidents Trophies had an all-time great in Ovechkin and Nicklas Backstrom.

The Flyers only had Howe. Brian Propp is close to a Hall of Famer, and I might argue he should be in, and Rick Tocchet is close to a Hall of Famer, and maybe he'll get in one day, but he was very far from his peak in those years.

Howe led the league in plus-minus at plus-87, which is one of the highest marks of all time. The only players to record a better number are Gretzky, Larry Robinson and Bobby Orr. Obviously it's a flawed stat, but that's nice company to be in. And it doesn't even take into account how good he was on special teams, where he was the QB of a lethal power play and the bedrock of a PK that was near the top in the league for many years (along with Propp and Poulin).

Howe wasn't durable, and didn't have the insane longevity of Chelios. But Chelios, at his best, was no more than basically an equal of guys like Stevens, MacInnis, Leetch, maybe a half-step below those guys. And definitely a step below Bourque and Lidstrom.

Norris Count

Chelios 3

Park, Howe, Stevens, Leetch and Macinnis 3

half a step below my arse

 

[Sentinel]

Norris Count

Chelios 3

Park, Howe, Stevens, Leetch and Macinnis 3

half a step below my arse

Even if you exclude Park, whose Norris count has been seriously Orr'd, all these other defensemen were Chelios's contemporaries... and he beat them all.

 

[The Panther]

Somehow I did not expect this thread to become about bashing Chelios.

Not one post on this thread has bashed Chelios.

 

[Bluesguru]

Brad Park.

Hard to believe the Rangers traded Park and Ratelle for Esposito and Vadnais. Throw in Middleton for Hodge and Hadfield for Nick Beverly and it’s no wonder the Rangers went south for a few years. They should of been a Cup contender for the whole decade of the 70’s and not just part of it.

 

[ted2019]

I hate to go against Mark Howe and the difference isn't much at all, but Park in this one.

 

[The Macho King]

I prefer Howe's peak, but Park has arguably a better prime.