Brad Park/Denis Potvin

[cam0426]

I don't anyone here would argue with me if I stated Bobby Orr was the best defenseman in the 1970's. (I believe he is best ever in any era- period.) But just wondering how Brad Park and Denis Potvin would compare? In my mind both were very good offensively - maybe a slight edge to Potvin here although I don't think anyone passed better than Park. Both were physical players although I think Potvin had more of a pure "mean streak" than did Park. While both were strong defensively I would lean more towards Park in this area.

Overall if I could select either of them in their prime I'd lean towards Brad Park. Any comments or thoughts?

Craig

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[Canadiens1958]

Denis Potvin

I don't anyone here would argue with me if I stated Bobby Orr was the best defenseman in the 1970's. (I believe he is best ever in any era- period.) But just wondering how Brad Park and Denis Potvin would compare? In my mind both were very good offensively - maybe a slight edge to Potvin here although I don't think anyone passed better than Park. Both were physical players although I think Potvin had more of a pure "mean streak" than did Park. While both were strong defensively I would lean more towards Park in this area.

Overall if I could select either of them in their prime I'd lean towards Brad Park. Any comments or thoughts?

Craig

Denis Potvin was better defensively by a good margin. Better in front of the net, in the corners, open ice body checker - ask Guy Lafleur. Park was slightly quicker in the transition game and a slightly better passer overall.

Potvin had much greater on ice presence and leadership qualities.Park could be thrown off his game especially early in his career.

 

[BobbyJet]

Not to take anything from Brad Park, but Potvin by quite a margin in my view. For the reasons mentioned above as well as the fact that he played mean, very mean, and opps hated playing against him. I think Potvin was vastly underrated as a player and in his contribution to the success of the Islanders team of that era.

I am too young to have seen Shore play (who some have rated as 2nd best dman behind Orr) but I have Potvin as a solid #2 dman of all time, and probably in the top 10 or 15 all time (including all positions). He was that good.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I don't anyone here would argue with me if I stated Bobby Orr was the best defenseman in the 1970's. (I believe he is best ever in any era- period.) But just wondering how Brad Park and Denis Potvin would compare? In my mind both were very good offensively - maybe a slight edge to Potvin here although I don't think anyone passed better than Park. Both were physical players although I think Potvin had more of a pure "mean streak" than did Park. While both were strong defensively I would lean more towards Park in this area.

Overall if I could select either of them in their prime I'd lean towards Brad Park. Any comments or thoughts?

Craig

On the top 100 (70) listing here, Potvin is ranked 18 and Park 42.

I think I had Park higher (maybe 33?). But I'm sure a vast majority of hockey fans consider Potvin the better player.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Park was a very good Dman but Potvin was a superstar, they are not even close in my mind.

I saw in another thread where a guy had him in his top 10 Dmen of all time which is too high IMO.

Park had the luxury of being an excellent Dman in the saturated 70's and early 80's and is somewhere in the top 20 area for me, although I still don't have a definitive list for Dmen yet.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Park was a very good Dman but Potvin was a superstar, they are not even close in my mind.

I saw in another thread where a guy had him in his top 10 Dmen of all time which is too high IMO.

Park had the luxury of being an excellent Dman in the saturated 70's and early 80's and is somewhere in the top 20 area for me, although I still don't have a definitive list for Dmen yet.

I think you may underestimate Park a bit.

Hard to say they are not even close when they have identical 5 first team and 2 second team all-star selections playing in the same era.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Did Park ever finish ahead of Potvin for the Norris when Potvin was healthy?

 

[#66]

Love both players but IMO Potvin is the best defenseman I've seen not named Orr.

Thats not a knock on Park though. I think he was actually pretty good defensively, had a great hip check and was right up there with the best as far as defenseman making the long pass.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I think you may underestimate Park a bit.

Hard to say they are not even close when they have identical 5 first team and 2 second team all-star selections playing in the same era.

Two glaring differences are Potvin's 3 Norris Trophies and the amazing fact that Potvin led his team in scoring his 1st 4 years up to his age 23 season, while Park broke out in his age 23 season.

Look Park was a very impressive Dman in his time but to do a direct comp with Potvin is underestimating Potvin IMO who is arguably one of the top 5 Dmen of all time.

 

[Loto68]

Two glaring differences are Potvin's 3 Norris Trophies and the amazing fact that Potvin led his team in scoring his 1st 4 years up to his age 23 season, while Park broke out in his age 23 season.

Look Park was a very impressive Dman in his time but to do a direct comp with Potvin is underestimating Potvin IMO who is arguably one of the top 5 Dmen of all time.

Comparing trophies for Park to anyone is almost unfair, like using trophies for TGO's contemporaries. Park finished 1st runner up 6 times, I believe 4 times to Orr and 2 times to Potvin, but I could be wrong about who the winners were each time.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Comparing trophies for Park to anyone is almost unfair, like using trophies for TGO's contemporaries. Park finished 1st runner up 6 times, I believe 4 times to Orr and 2 times to Potvin, but I could be wrong about who the winners were each time.

The thing is that Potvin got his 3 Norris trophies while Park was in his peak years and some of Parks all star selections were due to weaker competition as well.

Park IMO sometimes gets overvalued because he played while Orr played then with a strong group of dmen in the 70's.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That's the thing about Park. He'd have 4 Norrises without Orr - but they'd be over very weak competition.

 

[reckoning]

Did Park ever finish ahead of Potvin for the Norris when Potvin was healthy?

Only in Potvin's rookie season, but remember that Potvin was 5 years younger so you would expect him to finish higher as Park got older.

Also, in two of Potvin's Norris seasons ('76 and '79) Park missed a good chunk of games.

Though I'd still take Potvin easily between the two of them.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Without Orr

That's the thing about Park. He'd have 4 Norrises without Orr - but they'd be over very weak competition.

Brad Park did not start playing hockey as a defenseman. A goalie then a forward:

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/html/spot_oneononep198804.htm

Without Orr, Park remains a forward perhaps never playing in the NHL.

Once Bobby Orr emerged as a Bantam phenom, there was a trend in youth hockey to move forwards, mainly centers to defense - Brad Park, Carol Vadnais being two examples of such players who made the NHL.

So without Orr chances are that the number of Norris Trophies that Brad Park might have won would not change and he would have fewer 2nd place finishes or other defensive honours and considerations.

 

[cam0426]

I posted this same question on a hockey history email I belong to and got the following response from a retired Philadelphia lawyer who worshipped the 70's Flyers and saw a ton of both Park and Potvin.

Craig


"I tend to agree with you about Park and Potvin. Which one would I
pick if I had the choice? I'd start with the standard lawyer's
answer: "It depends."

If my team already had a strong offense, I'd go with Park to improve
my defense. If my team already had a strong defense, I'd go with
Potvin to improve my offense. If I had a good team that was close to
Stanley Cup-caliber, Park would probably add more. If I had a weak
team, or an expansion team, and needed somebody who might put more
people in the building, I'd prefer Potvin. Novice or casual fans
would not see sparks from Park as often as from Potvin, and I don't
think anybody ever went to a game specifically out of a desire to see
Park play."

 

[Loto68]

That's the thing about Park. He'd have 4 Norrises without Orr - but they'd be over very weak competition.

I don't see how the competition would be all that weak if Orr wasn't around. Larry Robinson, Guy Lapointe, Börje Salming, obviously Potvin later, and others. Those guys don't scream weak competition.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Two glaring differences are Potvin's 3 Norris Trophies and the amazing fact that Potvin led his team in scoring his 1st 4 years up to his age 23 season, while Park broke out in his age 23 season.

Look Park was a very impressive Dman in his time but to do a direct comp with Potvin is underestimating Potvin IMO who is arguably one of the top 5 Dmen of all time.

I don't underestimate Potvin. He's either 5th or 6th on my list too.

My disagreement is with Park's evaluation. I have him much closer to 10th than 20th all-time for dmen.

 

[tony d]

Brad Park and Denis Potvin where both good defenseman but Potvin was so much better than Park, a lot of that has to do with winning Cups and Potvin being good from the start of his career.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I don't underestimate Potvin. He's either 5th or 6th on my list too.

My disagreement is with Park's evaluation. I have him much closer to 10th than 20th all-time for dmen.

Who is ranking Park 20th? He should definitely be a border-line Top 10, somewhere in the 9-12 range is about right IMO.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't see how the competition would be all that weak if Orr wasn't around. Larry Robinson, Guy Lapointe, Börje Salming, obviously Potvin later, and others. Those guys don't scream weak competition.

These are the four times Park finished 4th to Orr in Norris voting:

1970 NORRIS: (289)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 180
2. Brad Park, NYR 58
3. Carl Brewer, Det 22
4. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 18
5. Jim Neilson, NYR 11

1971 NORRIS: (343)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 208
2. Brad Park, NYR 57
3. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 35
4. Pat Stapleton, Chi 23
T5. Bob Baun, Tor 10
T5. Keith Magnuson, Chi 10

1972 NORRIS: (370)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 204
2. Brad Park, NYR 117
3. Bill White, Chi 25
4. Pat Stapleton, Chi 16
5. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 8

1974 NORRIS: (399)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 236
2. Brad Park, NYR 98
3. Bill White, Chi 44
4. Barry Ashbee, Phi 11
5. Borje Salming, Tor 10

Those guys you mention weren't factors until Orr was basically done.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Who is ranking Park 20th? He should definitely be a border-line Top 10, somewhere in the 9-12 range is about right IMO.

The gentleman I was posting to, Hardyvan123.

"Park had the luxury of being an excellent Dman in the saturated 70's and early 80's and is somewhere in the top 20 area for me, although I still don't have a definitive list for Dmen yet."

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

The gentleman I was posting to, Hardyvan123.

"Park had the luxury of being an excellent Dman in the saturated 70's and early 80's and is somewhere in the top 20 area for me, although I still don't have a definitive list for Dmen yet."

Oops missed that one. It's tough to see how anyone could keep Park out of the top 15.

 

[BlackDog13]

Growing up in New York during the 60's and 70's I had the good fortune of seeing both play often. I'd rate Potvin number 2 alltime and Park mid top ten.

Everytime there's a thread or question about Brad Park I always like to post a quote from Phil Esposito. I'm paraphrasing but the gist of what Espo said is "The Bruins knew Bobby wasn't going to be around much longer so they traded me for the next best defenseman in hockey"

 

[mrzero]

Don't forget Brad Park had bad knees and many surgeries. I know one season he had 40 points in 40 games and never played another. If only he had a full career his stats would be greater than Potvin's. Both were excellent Dmen and I believe Potvin's healthy career makes him a little better. Park always seemed to have no luck with awards. The year Montreal beat out the Bruins in the finals Park tied Bobby Orr's record of 9 goals in the playoffs for a Dman. Larry Robinson won the Cohn Smythe Trophy (NHL Playoff MVP) because Montreal won the cup. Parky clearly would have won the award if the Bruins could have won the Stanley Cup. He diffenitly was one of the best stickhandlers and playmakers of all time.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Denis Potvin was better defensively by a good margin. Better in front of the net, in the corners, open ice body checker - ask Guy Lafleur. Park was slightly quicker in the transition game and a slightly better passer overall.

Potvin had much greater on ice presence and leadership qualities.Park could be thrown off his game especially early in his career.

I think Denis Potvin was one of the best ever at the transition game. Best blueline-to-blueline passer in the game's history...