Post-Game Talk: Booooooo

[Probert]

Yes, Lashoff's 0/0 this year and career numbers are a clear indication that he'll provide precisely as much (if not more) offense than Sproul has this year. Absolutely brilliant. Really. Unbelievable insight.

I have no idea why we're still debating playing or sitting Sproul. Him in the lineup is better for his development than him sitting. Him in the lineup doesn't keep someone else on a developmental track from also being in the lineup. The team is dog crap with or without him. Why is this even an argument? There's no benefit to playing Lashoff or Smith or, frankly, Kronwall at this point. The defense is trash no matter who gets rolled out, so maybe go with the guy who actually has upside, instead of the career AHLers and the guys who would be 7/8s on any competent team.

You know what? I can't disagree with your assessment of Sproul. And I share your frustration with the team this season, I just don't take it out on folks on the web. You have yourself a nice day now OK?

 

[Frk It]

Xavier Ouellet is low key having a nice season.

points/60 at ES
Ouellet - .86
Sproul - .69

 

[InjuredChoker]

This board would have wanted Erik Karlsson traded in his first season or two. And probably Subban too. Heck, most good PMDs in the league look pretty bad early on. Especially those who start on bad teams.

most good PMDs show rare skillset early on (especially hockey sense), that i'm not seeing when ti comes to sproul. great shot and mobile for a big guy, not bad hands either.

karlsson had already won the norris when he was as old as sproul. subban had not, but he was the clearly the best defenseman on his team.

majority here didn't want brendan smith traded early on even though he showed a lot less than subban and sproul.

 

[njx9]

Xavier Ouellet is low key having a nice season.

points/60 at ES
Ouellet - .86
Sproul - .69

He's really come around since the first ~10 games he played.

ES points/60 is a weird/poor way to compare the two guys.

 

[HockeyinHD]

As though I'd suggested anything beyond "he has upside", with all that comes with and implies about his current ability.

"The defense is trash no matter who gets rolled out, so maybe go with the guy who actually has upside, instead of the career AHLers and the guys who would be 7/8s on any competent team."

 

[Frk It]

ES points/60 is a weird/poor way to compare the two guys.

Why?

This isn't to put Sproul down, I want Sproul to play as well. Just thought it was interesting that Ouellet was a pleasant surprise, he's got the second best points/60 at ES of our d men.
I'd play Ouellet-Sproul as the second pairing for the rest of the season, personally.

 

[Pavels Dog]

most good PMDs show rare skillset early on (especially hockey sense), that i'm not seeing when ti comes to sproul. great shot and mobile for a big guy, not bad hands either.

karlsson had already won the norris when he was as old as sproul. subban had not, but he was the clearly the best defenseman on his team.

majority here didn't want brendan smith traded early on even though he showed a lot less than subban and sproul.

Imo Sproul looks very good with the puck on his stick. He shows a lot of patience and hockey IQ. He can rush the puck.
He needs to work on his compete level defensively and things of that nature. He's been outbattled in front of the net too many times, had some moments where he's lost his positioning. But overall I think he can learn.

Certainly he looks a lot more promising to me than Smith and Kindl ever did.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Xavier Ouellet is low key having a nice season.

points/60 at ES
Ouellet - .86
Sproul - .69

Always had a soft spot for XO, even though his progression dropped way back.

 

[njx9]

Why?

This isn't to put Sproul down, I want Sproul to play as well. Just thought it was interesting that Ouellet was a pleasant surprise, he's got the second best points/60 at ES of our d men.
I'd play Ouellet-Sproul as the second pairing for the rest of the season, personally.

XO gets about 2:30 more ice-time than Sproul in general, and another 2:30ish of ES time (since Sproul plays on the PP and XO doesn't). I didn't think you were trying to set up an argument that he's better, but I don't think that's a useful metric between those two specific players (Marchenko and Ouellet would be comparable there, for instance). I agree that I'd like that pairing, though I'd still be worried about XO's speed.

edit: I should clarify that, although I know it's a rate metric, I think the usage makes it clear that the players have very different roles and are probably getting very different 'kinds' of ES ice time. That possibly even benefits Sproul, I guess. And even though it's a rate measure, it's ignores the part of the game where Sproul is likely contributing most to the team (and thus 50% of his scoring).

"The defense is trash no matter who gets rolled out, so maybe go with the guy who actually has upside, instead of the career AHLers and the guys who would be 7/8s on any competent team."

Right... Lashoff has no upside and is a career AHLer. Sproul HAS upside, but might end up as a career AHLer. Smith HAD upside and is now a career 7/8. The only mutually exclusive criteria is which one still has potential to be better.

 

[Frk It]

XO gets about 2:30 more ice-time than Sproul in general, and another 2:30ish of ES time (since Sproul plays on the PP and XO doesn't). I didn't think you were trying to set up an argument that he's better, but I don't think that's a useful metric between those two specific players (Marchenko and Ouellet would be comparable there, for instance). I agree that I'd like that pairing, though I'd still be worried about XO's speed.

edit: I should clarify that, although I know it's a rate metric, I think the usage makes it clear that the players have very different roles and are probably getting very different 'kinds' of ES ice time. That possibly even benefits Sproul, I guess. And even though it's a rate measure, it's ignores the part of the game where Sproul is likely contributing most to the team (and thus 50% of his scoring).

The "per 60" part of the stat negates that additional ice time. I mean that's the point of it.

Typically speaking, if you are an offensive defenseman you should produce at both ES and the PP. Mike Green for example, has the best production on the team in both areas. ES and PP.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Imo Sproul looks very good with the puck on his stick. He shows a lot of patience and hockey IQ. He can rush the puck.
He needs to work on his compete level defensively and things of that nature. He's been outbattled in front of the net too many times, had some moments where he's lost his positioning. But overall I think he can learn.

Certainly he looks a lot more promising to me than Smith and Kindl ever did.

I think this is pretty accurate. He has always been very good with the puck on his stick, which is something we have lacked for some time. Sadly, during the course of a game, players spend very little time with the puck actually on their stick.

I find Sproul super slow to read the play and to engage in the defensive zone. Like Smith I think he gets too transfixed by the puck. If he wants to stick around he needs to want to battle and be much quicker to the battle. These two things have kept Smith in the league this long.

 

[njx9]

The "per 60" part of the stat negates that additional ice time. I mean that's the point of it.

Typically speaking, if you are an offensive defenseman you should produce at both ES and the PP. Mike Green for example, has the best production on the team in both areas. ES and PP.

Right, I tried to address that in my edit. That said, do you think AA's PP/60 would be truly representative of anything, given that he only gets about a minute of it a game, compared to Z's 3 minutes? Even normalized, I don't think rate statistics erase ice time differences. And it still erases the part of the game where he (Sproul) contributes most.

Given that Mike Green is better, it's not surprising to me that his ES numbers take less of a hit, but he also plays substantially more ES hockey while Sproul plays substantially more press box bubble hockey. I just don't find it a compelling point of comparison for two players who play very different games and who have been given very different roles.

 

[Frk It]

That said, do you think AA's PP/60 would be truly representative of anything, given that he only gets about a minute of it a game, compared to Z's 3 minutes?

Huh? I mean I used ES Points/60 essentially for this reason. Better sample size.

 

[njx9]

Huh? I mean I used ES Points/60 essentially for this reason. Better sample size.

I don't know how to be clearer: I don't think ES/60 production is a useful comparison between two players with dramatically different roles, and a huge ES ice time disparity.

Normalization isn't useful when there are dramatic differences, and a >30% ice time difference is dramatic (AA and Z's difference is significantly more dramatic, >60%, but it highlights that rate stats aren't necessarily comparative, even though they supposedly account for ice time differences).

 

[Frk It]

I don't know how to be clearer: I don't think ES/60 production is a useful comparison between two players with dramatically different roles, and a huge ES ice time disparity.

Normalization isn't useful when there are dramatic differences, and a >30% ice time difference is dramatic (AA and Z's difference is significantly more dramatic, >60%, but it highlights that rate stats aren't necessarily comparative, even though they supposedly account for ice time differences).

Not sure why we are bringing up AA, when I haven't said his name once. But since we're going there, AA's points/60 would suggest that he is doing exceedingly well to the point of where he should be granted a larger role to see if that production carries over. That is the benefit of points/60. It tells you how a player handles the role they are being given. It does not tell you how they will handle a bigger role, but logically it is a good indicator that you should give them it to see what happens.

Regarding XO and Sproul -- You say they have different roles... Tell me how they have different roles at ES. Both are 3rd pairing guys who play with similarly skilled guys when they are on the ice. If anything, Sproul has more offensive zone starts so his ES numbers should be better. But they aren't. Again, I want them both to play but for me XO has been more impressive all things considered.

 

[Wood Stick]

Why?

This isn't to put Sproul down, I want Sproul to play as well. Just thought it was interesting that Ouellet was a pleasant surprise, he's got the second best points/60 at ES of our d men.
I'd play Ouellet-Sproul as the second pairing for the rest of the season, personally.

Ryan Sproul can barely play third pairing minutes yet you want to promote him to the second pair? You see him as a long-term thing here? I personally do not.

 

[Frk It]

Ryan Sproul can barely play third pairing minutes yet you want to promote him to the second pair? You see him as a long-term thing here? I personally do not.

At this point, my #1 priority this season would be to develop players. Larkin is struggling in his role. DeKeyser is getting killed in his role. Just let them play and take the lumps.

Sproul has the best ceiling out of the U25 crowd on the blue line on the team. Better than XO, Marcenko, or Jensen. So you might as well continue to play him and see what is there.

 

[Wood Stick]

At this point, my #1 priority this season would be to develop players. Larkin is struggling in his role. DeKeyser is getting killed in his role. Just let them play and take the lumps.

Sproul has the best ceiling out of the U25 crowd on the blue line on the team. Better than XO, Marcenko, or Jensen. So you might as well continue to play him and see what is there.

I suppose, but I don't see him hitting that. I think you go through similar frustrations as Brendan Smith where his bonehead plays just don't go away. Issue with XO, Jensen and Marchenko is they all play the same role, and like you said, don't have an amazing ceiling. We're in the East though, so we'll be within like five points at all times so best line-up available is what will happen.. which is why Sproul has been sitting.

 

[Winger98]

I suppose, but I don't see him hitting that. I think you go through similar frustrations as Brendan Smith where his bonehead plays just don't go away. Issue with XO, Jensen and Marchenko is they all play the same role, and like you said, don't have an amazing ceiling. We're in the East though, so we'll be within like five points at all times so best line-up available is what will happen.. which is why Sproul has been sitting.

well, we wouldn't be any more than that out of the playoffs in the West, either. Regardless of how many points you are out of the playoffs, though, I think management needs to take a hard look at what the team has done this year and decide the likelihood of going on a run and making it versus the more likely outcome of being on the outside looking in. I know there are numbers floating around about the likelihood of making the playoffs if you're out of them on Thanksgiving, and they don't improve as the season wears on.

For what it's worth, I think XO is looking significantly better than Jensen and Marchenko, and I think Jensen stands a fair shot at overtaking Marchenko given the same amount of experience. Right now, I think I'd roll with something like:

XO-Green
Dekeyser-Sproul
Ericsson-Jensen

I think XO's better ability at reading the game would work well with Green, and it would be the reward I think XO deserves for upping his play if he's not going to get powerplay time.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I suppose, but I don't see him hitting that. I think you go through similar frustrations as Brendan Smith where his bonehead plays just don't go away. Issue with XO, Jensen and Marchenko is they all play the same role, and like you said, don't have an amazing ceiling. We're in the East though, so we'll be within like five points at all times so best line-up available is what will happen.. which is why Sproul has been sitting.

Imo, Smith has never looked as good with the puck on his stick and in the o-zone as Sproul does right now. Smith always had big issues with giveaways and an inability to make anything happen offensively. That's why Babcock tried to convert him into more of a defensive guy to at least make him somewhat useful.

Anyhow, 20 games is not a point where you give up on a big, mobile RHD with puckmoving skills just because you "think" he's not going to learn, not when you're close to the bottom of the league and need to have your sights on next year and the year after and the year after that.

 

[vladdy16]

Getting Abdelkader back was huge. It's nice to have real lines again, makes the idea of going on a hot streak a lot more plausible. Looking forward to Helm taking Sheahens spot.

Nyquist still looks like an undersized checker to me.

I think Smith has been playing well enough, that a) it hurts to have him out of the lineup, and b) his window of opportunity to earn a contract is still open. Made some outstanding and mature plays under the radar at the classic.

Taking Sproul out of the lineup that long was a horrendous move. All it did was cool him off, and now it looks like he's thinking too much.

Playing Lashoff in 2016/17 while you have healthy bodies in the press box while going on a close to season ending losing streak against an easy schedule was a fireable offense imo.

Not sure why more people aren't excited about Marchenko. He's dangerously close to carving out a 15 yr career niche.

 

[BinCookin]

It's not that anybody should be immune to getting benched. But yanking a kid out at the drop of a hat, then continuing to yo-yo him in and out of the lineup, doesn't really bode well for him to gain confidence and get on a roll.

Especially when the replacement options aren't exactly setting the world on fire.

And Ironically we complain every day that Sheahan has not been yanked yet....

Seems the same should apply for him

P.S. I hate Sheahan and think he sucks. But the principle of this argument should apply to many players, not just our super rookies.

 

[14ari13]

This was my main takeaway on Sproul after the last game. I felt he pinched at the wrong times, gave up on plays too easily (failed to backcheck hard when he got caught pinching), and didn't use his size to clear the crease and help Mrazek out, instead letting Chicago players get several whacks at loose pucks in front of the net. As a D-man that is just not excusable. Nice right-handed shot, but at this point he needs to go back to GR and we need to play Lashoff instead. He'll produce just as much offensively while being more sound defensively.

I remember the finals in 2002, Fischer crosschecked the guy and if I remember right he knocked some of his teeth out. He did not even get a penalty and nobody saw it. The canes were mad as they thought they should have had 5 min PP. But everyone was watching the puck and nobody saw the one of the nastiest cross checks you will ever see. That is how you protect the goalie and the crease. Sproul should knock that guy on his ass. It would have earned him 15 min next game.

Xavier Ouellet is low key having a nice season.

points/60 at ES
Ouellet - .86
Sproul - .69

I think he is steady and that is what you want from a dman. I think he is currently above the other rookies, but it could change.

 

[Winger98]

I remember the finals in 2002, Fischer crosschecked the guy and if I remember right he knocked some of his teeth out. He did not even get a penalty and nobody saw it. The canes were mad as they thought they should have had 5 min PP. But everyone was watching the puck and nobody saw the one of the nastiest cross checks you will ever see. That is how you protect the goalie and the crease. Sproul should knock that guy on his ass. It would have earned him 15 min next game.

The cleanest crosscheck to the face Chelios had ever seen. Fischer was suspended for the following game, though.