Bobby Hull legacy thread (see admin warning post #1)

[Bear of Bad News]

It's still a bit early in the overall timeline, but many people want to talk about Bobby Hull's full legacy, away from the typical decorum in a death announcement thread.

So here we are - have at it. Re-read the rules below (I just developed these off the top of my head, so if you want to suggest other rules and/or argue what I've got here, feel free). We're going to do our best.

Thread rules:

History board rules apply. If you're used to the general NHL board, the discussion standards are higher. Treat one another as colleagues. Trust one another's motives.

Stick to verified claims that are documented.

You can discuss Hull's politics (see the prior point) and we're going to try and let things flow naturally - don't be an asshole or equivocate for the sake of getting a reaction. The staff's judgment will apply.

If you try to drive the thread into a ditch, we will remove you (and perhaps more).

Conversely, if someone else is trying drive the thread into a ditch, report them and move on with your life. Matching minor penalties don't benefit you, even if it feels nice.

Once again: Treat one another as colleagues. Trust one another's motives. Don't be an asshole. Have fun.

Click to read more...

 

[clmetsfan]

Great! Bobby Hull was a world class hockey player and an even bigger piece of s--- as a human being.
Here's a very frank and balanced article about the "complicated" legacy that so many people like to refer to.

Bobby Hull Was Not Complicated | Defector

It should be impossible for an athlete as talented and successful as Bobby Hull to have his on-ice accomplishments overshadowed, to the point where they’re not even the first thing that springs to mind after his death. But Hull, whose death at the age of 84 was announced this morning, certainly...

defector.com

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Thanks for the article. Fair warning that we still do not allow public complaints about staff decisions (especially when posting your article in that other thread directly violated the warning there, and you tried multiple times).

This thread exists. Enjoy it. We're not discussing decisions made in the other thread.

 

[dr robbie]

Really makes me wonder about other players and the legacies they will leave behind. How much does the negative impact the success they had in hockey? Is it dependent more on the negative things and how people perceive them or does success negate some of that? Everyone has skeletons in their closets. Everyone has done or said stupid/wrong things. Some apologize and move forward and some don't.

Think of players like Theo Fleury and how he will be remembered. Horrible experiences. Dynamite player. Ruffled lots of feathers. And then went off the deep end with conspiracies and whatnot.

Or Craig McTavish. I mean, he freaking killed a woman from drunk driving. Yet, he's more known for being the last player without a helmet than vehicular homicide. Will he be remembered more positively even though he killed a completely innocent person?

Or Ovie. How will his pro-Putin stance impact his records and legacy? Does it completely depend on how everything ends up unfolding? Should it?

I don't know. It's hard to verbalize my thoughts. I'm not trying to feel bad for him or ignore that he did/said a lot of hurtful things. Just feels weird the amount of hate that instantly came about after his passing - even from people that are huge hockey fans.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

When you praise Nazis, deride the growth of the African American population (on both counts to which he daughter said sounded just like him), and beat your spouses (multiple!) then say your only regret is not drinking more you don’t deserve praise. You deserve scorn. His own son wanted nothing to do with him. He was a putrid man and the world’s better without him. But he shot a puck really well so good for him.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Not to diminish it but I'm sure a lot of people that get put on a pedastal by hockey fans had the same views as Hull, they just weren't dumb or drunk enough to say it out loud in an interview.

A lot of guys were also charged or alleged to be wife beaters.

Really makes me wonder about other players and the legacies they will leave behind. How much does the negative impact the success they had in hockey? Is it dependent more on the negative things and how people perceive them or does success negate some of that? Everyone has skeletons in their closets. Everyone has done or said stupid/wrong things. Some apologize and move forward and some don't.

Think of players like Theo Fleury and how he will be remembered. Horrible experiences. Dynamite player. Ruffled lots of feathers. And then went off the deep end with conspiracies and whatnot.

Or Craig McTavish. I mean, he freaking killed a woman from drunk driving. Yet, he's more known for being the last player without a helmet than vehicular homicide. Will he be remembered more positively even though he killed a completely innocent person?

Or Ovie. How will his pro-Putin stance impact his records and legacy? Does it completely depend on how everything ends up unfolding? Should it?

I don't know. It's hard to verbalize my thoughts. I'm not trying to feel bad for him or ignore that he did/said a lot of hurtful things. Just feels weird the amount of hate that instantly came about after his passing - even from people that are huge hockey fans.

MacTavish was stilll technically an accidnet even if it was criminal and resulted in someone dying. He did jail time for it and has a criminal record, I think a lot of people still remember him for that too.

Fleury went off the deep end after his career was over, and he was sexually abused as a kid, which f***ed him up.

No one is gonna think about Vladimir Putin when reflecting on Ovechkin's great career.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Really makes me wonder about other players and the legacies they will leave behind. How much does the negative impact the success they had in hockey? Is it dependent more on the negative things and how people perceive them or does success negate some of that? Everyone has skeletons in their closets. Everyone has done or said stupid/wrong things. Some apologize and move forward and some don't.

Think of players like Theo Fleury and how he will be remembered. Horrible experiences. Dynamite player. Ruffled lots of feathers. And then went off the deep end with conspiracies and whatnot.

Or Craig McTavish. I mean, he freaking killed a woman from drunk driving. Yet, he's more known for being the last player without a helmet than vehicular homicide. Will he be remembered more positively even though he killed a completely innocent person?

Or Ovie. How will his pro-Putin stance impact his records and legacy? Does it completely depend on how everything ends up unfolding? Should it?

I don't know. It's hard to verbalize my thoughts. I'm not trying to feel bad for him or ignore that he did/said a lot of hurtful things. Just feels weird the amount of hate that instantly came about after his passing - even from people that are huge hockey fans.

There was a whole spreadsheet posted a while back, in another thread, listing the long history of horrible off-ice incidents that have stained the NHL.

One that always comes to mind for me is Doug Gilmour's molestation of an underage girl while he was in St. Louis. Went on to win a Cup in Calgary and also remains a legend here in Toronto for his play with the Leafs. Either most fans simply aren't aware of what he did, or they don't care.

For what it's worth, I'd say what Bobby Hull did and said, over the years, pales in comparison to an act like that. But that's just my .02

 

[Overrated]

When you praise Nazis, deride the growth of the African American population (on both counts to which he daughter said sounded just like him), and beat your spouses (multiple!) then say your only regret is not drinking more you don’t deserve praise. You deserve scorn. His own son wanted nothing to do with him. He was a putrid man and the world’s better without him. But he shot a puck really well so good for him.

He allegedly said "Hitler, for example, had some good ideas. He just went a little bit too far," Sounds like a joke to me more than anything. Didn't Bill Hicks say something similar? Who knows who started these domestic altercations anyways. There is nothing concrete, just accusation. He probably had a dark side to him but to describe him as a guy who hated women and loved Hitler is probably not the most accurate statement. To me he is one of the most likable Canadian stars ever. Gave a ton of respect to all the Soviets, the Swedes and the Czechs unlike his chauvinistic contemporaries.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

He allegedly said "Hitler, for example, had some good ideas. He just went a little bit too far," Sounds like a joke to me more than anything. Didn't Bill Hicks say something similar? Who knows who started these domestic altercations anyways. There is nothing concrete, just accusation. He probably had a dark side to him but to describe him as a guy who hated women and loved Hitler is probably not the most accurate statement. To me he is one of the most likable Canadian stars ever. Gave a ton of respect to all the Soviets, the Swedes and the Czechs unlike his chauvinistic contemporaries.

He beat three different wives. I'm sure they absolutely started all of it.

When asked about his comments and coming off as a racist he said he didn't care, he wasn't running for office. Doesn't seem joking to me.

 

[Beerz]

"I am deeply offended by the false statements attributed to me with respect to Adolf Hitler and the black community in the United States,” Hull’s statement said. “To my mind, Adolf Hitler was the most evil and despicable person who ever lived and there is nothing good or positive that can ever be said about such an evil man. . . . I deeply regret any injury or insult that this regrettable situation has caused"

Hull Denies Remarks on Hitler, Blacks

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

"I am deeply offended by the false statements attributed to me with respect to Adolf Hitler and the black community in the United States,” Hull’s statement said. “To my mind, Adolf Hitler was the most evil and despicable person who ever lived and there is nothing good or positive that can ever be said about such an evil man. . . . I deeply regret any injury or insult that this regrettable situation has caused"

Hull Denies Remarks on Hitler, Blacks

And later his own family said the comments he made were exactly what he would say.

 

[MeHateHe]

In terms of his legacy, I wonder if in 20 years we'll look at Bobby Hull the way we look at Ty Cobb. Marvelously talented as a hockey player, but the things he did off the ice - the violence towards his wives is irrefutable - is worth maybe not celebrating the guy too much.

Being a fan of anyone is a risky endeavour at the end of the day. My favourite musician has long been Eric Clapton, but how many times do you give a guy a pass before you wonder if giving your money to someone who's said some pretty racist things is an acceptable choice? Dostoevsky seems to have clearly been anti-Semitic. Was Michael Richards just being edgy when we was shouting the N-word on a stage? Can you really separate the personalities? A genius on the ice but a monster off it?

I prefer not to lionize anyone for any reason, and at the same time I won't outright condemn anyone (a few obvious notorious exceptions to that because Hitler and Pol Pot and Stalin). You've got some saying that Hull was a great player but a bad person, and others saying Hull was a good person who did bad things. Bollocks to all that. He was a person who did some truly awful stuff, who was also a damn fine hockey player. Take all the statues down and let's be a lot less passionate about it all.

At the same time it's easy for me, because I'm not the person he was holding over a balcony. The guy's dead now and he no longer has the opportunity to redeem himself. But I guess if I did the bad shit that Hull did, I'd appreciate the opportunity to see the light, make amends and turn things around.

 

[Overrated]

He beat three different wives. I'm sure they absolutely started all of it.

When asked about his comments and coming off as a racist he said he didn't care, he wasn't running for office. Doesn't seem joking to me.

To me he just seems like an egomaniac with no filter. It's not like he said something everybody else wasn't thinking but wasn't saying. It's seems very unlikely to me that the Canadians chauvinists who openly hated on all European players loved blacks and other minorities. Where were all the hockey legends protesting against the Jim Crow (half of the league played in the USA so idgaf). Where were all of these great nice guys like Howe when South Africa was doing their fcked up stuff and was part of the same British Commonwealth Canada was prior to them being forced out? Hull wasn't unlike anyone else, he just didn't care about presenting himself as an angelic figure like all of the other pretentious guys. Am I the only one who doesn't find it virtuous at all and in fact very annoying when I see Gretzky never give himself credit and even make up nonsense stories to prop up other players?

 

[Kyle McMahon]

"I am deeply offended by the false statements attributed to me with respect to Adolf Hitler and the black community in the United States,” Hull’s statement said. “To my mind, Adolf Hitler was the most evil and despicable person who ever lived and there is nothing good or positive that can ever be said about such an evil man. . . . I deeply regret any injury or insult that this regrettable situation has caused"

Hull Denies Remarks on Hitler, Blacks

The "Hitler had good ideas" thing was debunked as fake news like 15 years ago as far as I recall. Why the hell would some Russian newspaper be asking a retired Canadian hockey player what he thought about Hitler? Mainstream sports media continuing to report it as fact is sad, but unsurprising.

 

[Professor What]

In terms of his legacy, I wonder if in 20 years we'll look at Bobby Hull the way we look at Ty Cobb. Marvelously talented as a hockey player, but the things he did off the ice - the violence towards his wives is irrefutable - is worth maybe not celebrating the guy too much.

Being a fan of anyone is a risky endeavour at the end of the day. My favourite musician has long been Eric Clapton, but how many times do you give a guy a pass before you wonder if giving your money to someone who's said some pretty racist things is an acceptable choice? Dostoevsky seems to have clearly been anti-Semitic. Was Michael Richards just being edgy when we was shouting the N-word on a stage? Can you really separate the personalities? A genius on the ice but a monster off it?

I prefer not to lionize anyone for any reason, and at the same time I won't outright condemn anyone (a few obvious notorious exceptions to that because Hitler and Pol Pot and Stalin). You've got some saying that Hull was a great player but a bad person, and others saying Hull was a good person who did bad things. Bollocks to all that. He was a person who did some truly awful stuff, who was also a damn fine hockey player. Take all the statues down and let's be a lot less passionate about it all.

At the same time, it's easy, because I'm not the person he was holding over a balcony. The guy's dead now and he no longer has the opportunity to redeem himself. But I guess if I did the bad shit that Hull did, I'd appreciate the opportunity to see the light, make amends and turn things around.

I agree with this take. We don't celebrate the bad things, but we recognize everyone is flawed. I'm not a fan of Hull as a person, but we're all human at the end of the day. (I hope I expressed that better than I did in the ATD forum yesterday.)

 

[MeHateHe]

I agree with this take. We don't celebrate the bad things, but we recognize everyone is flawed. I'm not a fan of Hull as a person, but we're all human at the end of the day. (I hope I expressed that better than I did in the ATD forum yesterday.)

Yeah, with the caveat I meant to add: I don't blame anyone for reacting a lot more viscerally and angrily than I did, because I'm not the guy he ultimately hurt. If I step on your toe, it isn't for the guy next to you to tell me I'm forgiven.

 

[Professor What]

Yeah, with the caveat I meant to add: I don't blame anyone for reacting a lot more viscerally and angrily than I did, because I'm not the guy he ultimately hurt. If I step on your toe, it isn't for the guy next to you to tell me I'm forgiven.

Yeah, absolutely.

 

[MarchysNoseKnows]

What’s been eye opening for me on the Bruins board is seeing a number of people who absolutely lost their minds about Mitch Miller heaping so much praise upon Bobby Hull.

 

[MeHateHe]

What’s been eye opening for me on the Bruins board is seeing a number of people who absolutely lost their minds about Mitch Miller heaping so much praise upon Bobby Hull.

It's really hard to let go of your hero worship, especially when it started when you were really young. It's a lot easier to dismiss someone you haven't invested your entire childhood revering.

 

[hi]

This thread should be in the National Hockey League forum instead of hidden away in a subforum that 99% of users will never read. Preventing people from talking about how Bobby Hull was an abusive alcoholic in his death announcement thread to maintain "decorum" is disgusting.

 

[MeHateHe]

This thread should be in the National Hockey League forum instead of hidden away in a subforum that 99% of users will never read. Preventing people from talking about how Bobby Hull was an abusive alcoholic in his death announcement thread to maintain "decorum" is disgusting.

Know your audience. If half your audience will just turn it into a flame war, what's the point? The people who want to have an honest discussion about the guy's actual legacy will find this forum.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

This thread should be in the National Hockey League forum instead of hidden away in a subforum that 99% of users will never read. Preventing people from talking about how Bobby Hull was an abusive alcoholic in his death announcement thread to maintain "decorum" is disgusting.

The decision isn't up for debate.

 

[PBandJ]

He beat his wives and thought Hitler had good ideas.

The fact he's being celebrated is vomit worthy.

 

[JackSlater]

Hull has a lot of elements as a hockey figure. One of the greatest players of all time and the face of the NHL in the 1960s. By pretty much every account I've heard he was great with fans in a way that stood out even in comparison with other stars. An innovator with stick technology (along with some others such as Mikita) that obviously impacted hockey. His move to the WHA also drastically changed the landscape of the NHL in terms of economics as well as actual geography. Off the top of my head I suspect that he's one of the most influential players ever, maybe top three. It's a massive legacy.

As a person I don't know much other than that he was great with fans, was a pretty distant father, and that he beat multiple wives. The Hitler quote still being brought up is primarily the product of laziness as when you look into it (basically a random news contributor interrupted Hull's dinner in Moscow to ask him random questions, had no recording or any person willing to corroborate what he said and the Russian newspaper didn't bother checking) it seems highly unlikely. The key is obviously Hull beating multiple women, which isn't really debatable. That precludes him from being some sort of sainted figure or even viewed as a good man for the most part. You often hear the platitude thrown out after someone dies that he was "a great player but an even greater person" and while that generally isn't true in Hull's case we can say that he was a great player and not a great person, by modern standards or even the standards of the time. It isn't part of his legacy as a player and I'm not interested in discussing the player and hearing about how shitty he was as a father and husband every time, but when discussing the person it is likely to take precedence and it is understandable.

To summarize: all time great player, one of the most influential players ever, shitty guy who did some deplorable things.

 

[Big Phil]

Bobby Hull was basically Mickey Mantle in the NHL. Muscular, the fans loved him, bigger than life, blond hair, big smile, good with the fans and could lift you out of your seat with how he played. Also played in an era where the media had an interest in keeping things focused on the game and not their private life. Was that better? Yeah I think so. We've swung the pendulum the other way too much where we demand our sports stars fall in line with mainstream politics and we shame them for it if we don't think they do (eg. the way people talk about Ovechkin). Sports is an escape from that stuff, and few could do that better than Bobby Hull.

He also ought to be credited more than anyone with NHLers getting paid their market value. In 1972 while Hull was not able to play in the Summit Series he was given free tickets by Wayne Cashman I believe for one of the games. When Hull asked what he owed him Cashman said "Nothing. My salary tripled because of you!" Hull bolting to the WHA did this. This was a 50 goal scorer at the time doing this, a larger than life figure in the NHL. It wouldn't be ignored. And I don't think he gets enough credit for it.

Hull would sign every single autograph even if it meant he had to keep the team bus waiting. Regardless of his personal life, the guy shelled out for the fans perhaps as much as anyone ever has. I've read the tributes about him. It is one thing to read what is said on a message board, it is another thing to hear Hedberg or Nilsson or people that knew him well talk about him. There is a lot of nice things said about him. Maybe people don't like that, but oh well.

Now...........was there a side to Hull that was different from the rink? Yes I believe there was. I'm not denying that and I hope he made some peace with things in his private life. But my goodness, the guy's body is still warm and people are bringing out the "Hitler" comment, which I can still show you a Hockey News magazine from 1997 where that seemed like a debunked quote. I mean, can't we just appreciate the guy for his playing ability? We didn't know him off the ice. I know Brett and him had, what I would think sounded like a complicated relationship, would he have even made the NHL or gotten interest in the game without the old man?