New York Islanders: Bo Horvat Extended 8x8.5 AAV

[Torrey Redux]

I don't think they should keep the lineup intact, as I've said. Again and Again. I'd rather just re-tool than trade away Sorokin, etc for a full, 8 year rebuild.

And in a hard cap system where players become UFAs at 26 (or whatever), the old days of draft well and you're done are over. Everyone has to re-tool. So what you're really saying is rebuild, and then start re-tooling.

"Re-tool" with what exactly? Our excess draft capital? The surplus of great, young players with value contracts that we've got? Talk about a fantasy.

And speaking of which, I would like you to explain to me how their can be a "fantasy element" of something without there being some degree fantasizing? What's the difference?

 

[doublechili]

"Re-tool" with what exactly? Our excess draft capital? The surplus of great, young players with value contracts that we've got? Talk about a fantasy.

And speaking of which, I would like you to explain to me how their can be a "fantasy element" of something without there being some degree fantasizing? What's the difference?

You are definitely "Edgy".

 

[doublechili]

And speaking of which, I would like you to explain to me how their can be a "fantasy element" of something without there being some degree fantasizing? What's the difference?

Well, one is saying that there's a fantasy element to a position. The other is to say that someone is fantasizing. One is personal, the other isn't.

 

[Torrey Redux]

Well, one is saying that there's a fantasy element to a position. The other is to say that someone is fantasizing. One is personal, the other isn't.

What a crock of shit that answer is. Who is taking the position? A person. As in personal. How do you have a position that has a fantasy element to it without engaging in fantasizing? In this case, you put forth the idea that those who believe in rebuilds engage in the fantastical thinking that they are all successful and all lead to Cups. That is the fantasy element and no matter how much semantic garbage you want to throw out you can't have one without the other.

 

[doublechili]

What a crock of shit that answer is. Who is taking the position? A person. As in personal. How do you have a position that has a fantasy element to it without engaging in fantasizing? In this case, you put forth the idea that those who believe in rebuilds engage in the fantastical thinking that they are all successful and all lead to Cups. That is the fantasy element and no matter how much semantic garbage you want to throw out you can't have one without the other.

"That's a bad thing you did, Johnny."

"Johnny, you're a bad boy."

See the difference?

 

[Torrey Redux]

"That's a bad thing you did, Johnny."

"Johnny, you're a bad boy."

See the difference?

Yes, I do, and it's not in any way applicable to this circumstance.

 

[doublechili]

Yes, I do, and it's not in any way applicable to this circumstance.

Okey dokey.

 

[Seph]

You don't think it's insulting to be told you are fantasizing about something when you know that you're not? That anyone who thinks that a rebuild might be necessary in a particular circumstance is engaging in a fantasization about the certainty of the outcome? My comment was no more or less insulting than DCs, it's just an opinion that you disagree with so you decided to go down the bullshit road that you did.

Pointing out a fantasy element to the logic is not at all the same as claiming anyone thinks there is a certainty of an outcome. You're intentionally hyperbolizing what was actually said. And if you had to hyperbolize it to make it sound like an insult, you likely already know it wasn't one.

BTW, I haven't even made a comment about whether or not I feel a rebuild is necessary, so your accusation about disagreement is pretty weak. And for the record, resorting to accusations isn't helping you sound less like a teen edgelord.

 

[Torrey Redux]

Pointing out a fantasy element to the logic is not at all the same as claiming anyone thinks there is a certainty of an outcome. You're intentionally hyperbolizing what was actually said. And if you had to hyperbolize it to make it sound like an insult, you likely already know it wasn't one.

BTW, I haven't even made a comment about whether or not I feel a rebuild is necessary, so your accusation about disagreement is pretty weak. And for the record, resorting to accusations isn't helping you sound less like a teen edgelord.

So you just took up the argument for kicks? Decided to some throw verbal nonsense around for the fun of it?

The fact is, there is no difference. It was no less or more of a definitive a statement to say that there is a fantasy element inherent in the rebuild point of view, and therefore those that believe that it is the proper course of action are engaging in some level of fantasy thinking, than it was to state that those who don't think that a rebuild is necessary are committed to mediocrity.

Here, let me make it simple for you:

You and DC: Anyone who believes in rebuild = fantasy thinking (of guaranteed success)

Me: Anyone who doesn't believe in rebuild = committed to mediocrity

 

[Seph]

So you just took up the argument for kicks? Decided to some throw verbal nonsense around for the fun of it?

The fact is, there is no difference. It was no less or more of a definitive a statement to say that there is a fantasy element inherent in the rebuild point of view, and therefore those that believe that it is the proper course of action are engaging in some level of fantasy thinking, than it was to state that those who don't think that a rebuild is necessary are committed to mediocrity.

Here, let me make it simple for you:

You and DC: Anyone who believes in rebuild = fantasy thinking (of guaranteed success)

Me: Anyone who doesn't believe in rebuild = committed to mediocrity

I already pointed out that no one said anything about guaranteed success. But keep lying about what was said, it goes a long way to confirm my original point.

 

[doublechili]

Here, let me make it simple for you:

You and DC: Anyone who believes in rebuild = fantasy thinking (of guaranteed success)

Me: Anyone who doesn't believe in rebuild = committed to mediocrity

The "Me" should go first, since you said it first. Again, you made the comment first - I responded. Does that lessen the offense?

As for what I said, I now really wish I had said "hope" instead of "fantasy" (the former is softer, and probably closer to what I meant). But I was at least careful enough to say "there is a fantasy element" rather than flat out saying it was a fantasy. But none of that seems to matter. You said something. I responded. You were offended. Yeesh. Done.

 

[Torrey Redux]

I already pointed out that no one said anything about guaranteed success. But keep lying about what was said, it goes a long way to confirm my original point.

Then what is the hope/fantasy about, genius? That's the whole point. People like me supposedly live in a fantasy world where every rebuild results in success. I never said it, I never meant it, I have never believed it, but I would rather see a rebuild than watch this middling team play it's middling game year after year when all they are doing is postponing the inevitable and making any realistic chance at a Cup an even more distant possibility. People got seduced by the Covid results into thinking this team was elite when it was never close. Need I remind anyone that Montreal went to the finals. Tells you all you need to know.

And nobody lied about a f**king thing.

 

[Torrey Redux]

The "Me" should go first, since you said it first. Again, you made the comment first - I responded. Does that lessen the offense?

As for what I said, I now really wish I had said "hope" instead of "fantasy" (the former is softer, and probably closer to what I meant). But I was at least careful enough to say "there is a fantasy element" rather than flat out saying it was a fantasy. But none of that seems to matter. You said something. I responded. You were offended. Yeesh. Done.

Fair enough, but there was no offense on your part or mine and I wasn't originally offended, certainly not by you. It wasn't you who said I was an edgy 15 year old. My opinion remains that anyone who doesn't think that this team should rebuild is committed to mediocrity and I suspect your opinion hasn't really changed about rebuilds and the hope/fantasy element. And that's all fine.

 

[doublechili]

Fair enough, but there was no offense on your part or mine and I wasn't originally offended, certainly not by you. It wasn't you who said I was an edgy 15 year old. My opinion remains that anyone who doesn't think that this team should rebuild is committed to mediocrity and I suspect your opinion hasn't really changed about rebuilds and the hope/fantasy element. And that's all fine.

Yup, good enough. We'll all continue the rebuild/re-tool conversation in the "rumors" thread. I suspect that will be the case whether Lou stays or goes. My opinion may not be as firm as it seems. I used to be a rebuild guy. But now with the Cap and guys turning UFA at 26 or 27, I think re-tool is kind of a permanent thing.

BTW, Seph is one of the longest-term, respected posters around here - hopefully we can all move on and put this in the past.

 

[JohnTonelliRises]

Yup, good enough. We'll all continue the rebuild/re-tool conversation in the "rumors" thread. I suspect that will be the case whether Lou stays or goes. My opinion may not be as firm as it seems. I used to be a rebuild guy. But now with the Cap and guys turning UFA at 26 or 27, I think re-tool is kind of a permanent thing.

BTW, Seph is one of the longest-term, respected posters around here - hopefully we can all move on and put this in the past.

I think you're spot on. We haven't seen an old-fashioned rebuild recently like we used to see about 10 years ago in the league. Even when NYR went through a "rebuild" recently, it was more of a silent rebuild than anything.

It's akin to adding a 3-4 new dress shirts every year, while phasing out the old. In about 3 years, all your old dress shirts are pretty much gone and before you know it, you basically rebuilt your wardrobe.

I wouldn't be surprised if we trade Lee, someone on the fourth line, and bring in only two new pieces this year (along with bringing in a new coach). Then we just sit on what we have.

 

[Torrey Redux]

Yup, good enough. We'll all continue the rebuild/re-tool conversation in the "rumors" thread. I suspect that will be the case whether Lou stays or goes. My opinion may not be as firm as it seems. I used to be a rebuild guy. But now with the Cap and guys turning UFA at 26 or 27, I think re-tool is kind of a permanent thing.

BTW, Seph is one of the longest-term, respected posters around here - hopefully we can all move on and put this in the past.

Yup. And just one final thought. Just as you wished you had used the word "hope", in retrospect I should have used the phrase "accepting of" rather than "committed to". The latter makes it seem as though it is something that would be sought out and I know that no one here is seeking mediocrity for this team.

 

[Seph]

Then what is the hope/fantasy about, genius? That's the whole point. People like me supposedly live in a fantasy world where every rebuild results in success. I never said it, I never meant it, I have never believed it, but I would rather see a rebuild than watch this middling team play it's middling game year after year when all they are doing is postponing the inevitable and making any realistic chance at a Cup an even more distant possibility. People got seduced by the Covid results into thinking this team was elite when it was never close. Need I remind anyone that Montreal went to the finals. Tells you all you need to know.

And nobody lied about a f**king thing.

This is so exaggerated and overly dramatic that it is like you are trying to prove you actually are a teenaged edgelord.

And since no one said any of what you claim other than the word fantasy, you continuing to claim they did is a lie.

 

[Torrey Redux]

This is so exaggerated and overly dramatic that it is like you are trying to prove you actually are a teenaged edgelord.

And since no one said any of what you claim other than the word fantasy, you continuing to claim they did is a lie.

Then I guess the word fantasy stands alone without any meaning at all in the way you interpret the written word. It would take some truly tortured logic, but that would be the only way in which anything I have written could be considered a lie.

In any event, I've made my peace with DC, who referred to you as one of the oldest and most respected posters here. The numbers suggest that in the first instance he may be correct, but certainly not in the second. I don't know, it is like you are trying to prove that you actually are a troll who just wants to stir the pot.

 

[Seph]

Then I guess the word fantasy stands alone without any meaning at all in the way you interpret the written word. It would take some truly tortured logic, but that would be the only way in which anything I have written could be considered a lie.

In any event, I've made my peace with DC, who referred to you as one of the oldest and most respected posters here. The numbers suggest that in the first instance he may be correct, but certainly not in the second. I don't know, it is like you are trying to prove that you actually are a troll who just wants to stir the pot.

It's funny, accusing someone of being a troll because they can't see how deep you've actually been this whole time is also a very 14 year old edgelord thing to do.

But until you can find me a quote of someone actually saying you believed in guaranteed success, you claiming people said it remains a lie.

 

[MarsTBOW]

I wouldn't be surprised if we trade Lee, someone on the fourth line, and bring in only two new pieces this year (along with bringing in a new coach). Then we just sit on what we have.

The Captain's comments would probably be to be being traded "It's Part Of The Journey" if this happens
I never understood the "Part Of The Journey" thing, I guess I'm an Old Fart....

 

[JPIsles18]

I don't think they should keep the lineup intact, as I've said. Again and Again. I'd rather just re-tool than trade away Sorokin, etc for a full, 8 year rebuild.

And in a hard cap system where players become UFAs at 26 (or whatever), the old days of draft well and you're done are over. Everyone has to re-tool. So what you're really saying is rebuild, and then start re-tooling.

My fear is that locking Sorokin in will doom us into mediocrity for at least the next 4-5 years.

My assumption is Sorokin ends up at 9 x 8 years.

This would mean that in 24-25, our core is as follows (assuming no moves)

Barzal (26)
Horvat (29)
Lee (35)
Nelson (32)
Palmieri (33)
Pageau (31)

Pelech (30)
Pulock (29)

Sorokin (29)

That core will cost approximately 62 million. Current projection for that season is 87.5. That is 71% of your cap to those 9 players. Now mind you, this is also a team without any obvious candidates for cheap ELC top of the lineup production.

All this talk about a rebuild, but that is a lottery team without Sorokin. With Sorokin playing at this level, the team is likely a fringe playoff team. Still not good enough. My point here is not really so much that we need to trade Sorokin. That is a very risky proposition. We instead need to start surgery on this roster this offseason.

The guys above all have have some sort of NTCs as well. The one exception is Sorokin at this time. He will certainly get one. If we can't, we need to trade Sorokin unfortunately I believe. We cannot be locked into the core I list above. It is simply not good enough. We can't allow Lou to rely this heavily on goaltending either. As you saw with Vasilevski and Shesterkin, even the best go through human stretches. Also, both teams got eliminated.

I would move on from Lou this offseason if I were the ownership group because he is too emotionally invested in this group. Aging curves are real, but largely ignored by Lou. He needs to find a way to dump guys like JGP, and possibly Palmieri this offseason.

The most alarming part of the Isles roster construction isn't the overpayment of the vets. It's the fact that there is a dearth of young talent on the roster. Guys like JGP, the entire 4th line should be easy to replace from a pure production standpoint by young players. But management refuses to do so. The core isn't good enough this season or last. No reason to believe they'll be good enough next season or the following. But Lou continues to double down. It's maddening.

 

[Lame Lambert]

My fear is that locking Sorokin in will doom us into mediocrity for at least the next 4-5 years.

My assumption is Sorokin ends up at 9 x 8 years.

This would mean that in 24-25, our core is as follows (assuming no moves)

Barzal (26)
Horvat (29)
Lee (35)
Nelson (32)
Palmieri (33)
Pageau (31)

Pelech (30)
Pulock (29)

Sorokin (29)

That core will cost approximately 62 million. Current projection for that season is 87.5. That is 71% of your cap to those 9 players. Now mind you, this is also a team without any obvious candidates for cheap ELC top of the lineup production.

All this talk about a rebuild, but that is a lottery team without Sorokin. With Sorokin playing at this level, the team is likely a fringe playoff team. Still not good enough. My point here is not really so much that we need to trade Sorokin. That is a very risky proposition. We instead need to start surgery on this roster this offseason.

The guys above all have have some sort of NTCs as well. The one exception is Sorokin at this time. He will certainly get one. If we can't, we need to trade Sorokin unfortunately I believe. We cannot be locked into the core I list above. It is simply not good enough. We can't allow Lou to rely this heavily on goaltending either. As you saw with Vasilevski and Shesterkin, even the best go through human stretches. Also, both teams got eliminated.

I would move on from Lou this offseason if I were the ownership group because he is too emotionally invested in this group. Aging curves are real, but largely ignored by Lou. He needs to find a way to dump guys like JGP, and possibly Palmieri this offseason.

The most alarming part of the Isles roster construction isn't the overpayment of the vets. It's the fact that there is a dearth of young talent on the roster. Guys like JGP, the entire 4th line should be easy to replace from a pure production standpoint by young players. But management refuses to do so. The core isn't good enough this season or last. No reason to believe they'll be good enough next season or the following. But Lou continues to double down. It's maddening.

We’re the Carey Price era Canadiens

 

[JPIsles18]

We’re the Carey Price era Canadiens

Not yet, but on our way.

 

[MJF]

We’re the Carey Price era Canadiens

Not yet but we’re working on it.

 

[doublechili]

This would mean that in 24-25, our core is as follows (assuming no moves)

Barzal (26)
Horvat (29)
Lee (35)
Nelson (32)
Palmieri (33)
Pageau (31)

Pelech (30)
Pulock (29)

Sorokin (29)

I don't disagree that the smart move may be to move on from Lou, but it's starting to look like that's not happening. So, sticking with your list of players, I'd add Dobson and Romanov to that list first of all. In 24-25 Nelson and Palmieri will be in the last season of their contract. JGP and Lee will have 1 more remaining. Bailey, Clutterbuck and Martin should be gone, and maybe some of the 4 aforementioned vets near the end of their contracts can be moved.

IDK, find a workaround. Don't throw away an asset like Sorokin. Look at the Devs (and EDM and TOR, etc.). Talented teams with superstar #1 picks via the rebuild route and they lack a good goalie. The Devs started a rebuild in 2015, and 8 years later they need a goalie and have $13.5M per year committed to 2 defenseman for years to come and they both just had crappy playoffs (NJ fans referring to Hamilton's contract as an "anchor"). So guess what - they're going to have to figure something out. Every team has issues they need to work around. And I haven't even mentioned the NYR!