Blues Trade Proposals Part XIX

[tfriede2]

Couture is not a 1C guys.

Over the last 5 seasons, he paced 31 goals and 64 points per 82 game season (assuming he plays all 82 games). How is that not a #1 center?

 

[Dbrownss]

Over the last 5 seasons, he paced 31 goals and 64 points per 82 game season (assuming he plays all 82 games). How is that not a #1 center?

Same way Backes is/isnt.

 

[Jordeau]

Over the last 5 seasons, he paced 31 goals and 64 points per 82 game season (assuming he plays all 82 games). How is that not a #1 center?

I'm on my phone so I'm not going to look it up, but isn't that pretty close to Backes' and Stastny's stats over the last few years? Maybe not goal-wise for Stas, but point-wise at least.

 

[tfriede2]

I'm on my phone so I'm not going to look it up, but isn't that pretty close to Backes' and Stastny's stats over the last few years? Maybe not goal-wise for Stas, but point-wise at least.

Backes averaged/paced 25.5 goals and 57 points per 82 game season over the last 5 seasons. Stastny averaged/paced 22.5 goals and 58 points per 82 game season over the last 5 seasons. Couture beats both players quite handily in both goals and points.

 

[Hooliganx3]

Backes averaged/paced 25.5 goals and 57 points per 82 game season over the last 5 seasons. Stastny averaged/paced 22.5 goals and 58 points per 82 game season over the last 5 seasons. Couture beats both players quite handily in both goals and points.

6 and 7 points is quite handily? We must have different definitions. Those points total difference could easily be accounted for in usage coaching players playing with ect.

IMO Couture is more of what we have in Backes and Statsny.

 

[HappyGilmore]

6 and 7 points is quite handily? We must have different definitions. Those points total difference could easily be accounted for in usage coaching players playing with ect.

IMO Couture is more of what we have in Backes and Statsny.

In what world are Logan Couture and David Backes similar? Couture actually has skill.

 

[Dbrownss]

In what world are Logan Couture and David Backes similar? Couture actually has skill.

Yet only produces a couple more points while not having to play a shutdown role.

The argument here isn't weather Couture is a good player or not. He's not the high end 1C that we'd look to aquire.

 

[HappyGilmore]

Yet only produces a couple more points while not having to play a shutdown role.

The argument here isn't weather Couture is a good player or not. He's not the high end 1C that we'd look to aquire.

Well, Couture also doesn't play 1C minutes either. He plays 2C in San Jose. Anyways, I'm not really even part of this discussion. At the end of the day, the posters here don't effect the roster in anyway, so I don't really care.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Couture is a #1 center like Shattenkirk is a #1 defender. Both are technically in the top 30 of their position, but you'd prefer them to be in the #2 slot on your team. The 2 of them have about equal values.

I would be in favor of this trade, I think Couture would help us more than Shattenkirk.

 

[Captain Creampuff]

If I'm trading Shattenkirk, it's for someone better than Couture.

 

[bluemandan]

Couture is a #1 center like Shattenkirk is a #1 defender. Both are technically in the top 30 of their position, but you'd prefer them to be in the #2 slot on your team. The 2 of them have about equal values.

I would be in favor of this trade, I think Couture would help us more than Shattenkirk.

I would've agreed with you before last season.

But with Stastny and Lehtera in the mix, and Shattenkirk appearing to take another step forward last season, I'd rather keep Shattenkirk.

 

[tfriede2]

6 and 7 points is quite handily? We must have different definitions. Those points total difference could easily be accounted for in usage coaching players playing with ect.

IMO Couture is more of what we have in Backes and Statsny.

Yes, because those 6-7 points create quite a difference in point rankings among centers. For instance, taking those 5 year averages and comparing those against the top center point producers this year, Couture would have ranked 18th among centers, Stastny 27th, and Backes 28th. Those 6-7 points were the difference between a middle of the road #1 C and a low end #1 C (again, strictly looking at points only).

Edit: the above rankings could be off by quite a bit, as I didn't account for the all of the players' 82 game pace this past season. Too lazy to do all that work right now. Nonetheless, my overall point is that Couture is a #1 C, that's it.

 

[bluemandan]

Let's keep in mind only 16 teams make the playoffs.

The goal is to win in the playoffs. Therefore we should really only concern ourselves with top 16 centers, and preferably higher.

18th or 27th ranked center is still only a top line center on a non-playoff team.

 

[izzy]

In what world are Logan Couture and David Backes similar? Couture actually has skill.

I'm not a huge fan of any advanced style stats, but to be fair... Backes was 297th of 356 forwards for offensive zone starts and not many players that low have as high of a offensive zone finish % as him or as many points.

Did notice that Byron has a ridiculously good difference from start to end shift for offensive zone.

 

[Dbrownss]

Let's keep in mind only 16 teams make the playoffs.

The goal is to win in the playoffs. Therefore we should really only concern ourselves with top 16 centers, and preferably higher.

18th or 27th ranked center is still only a top line center on a non-playoff team.

This seems like a really poor way to look at it.....

 

[KirkOut]

Giroux, Kopitar, Bergeron, Seguin, Duchene...etc

 

[MortiestOfMortys]

I say we get all of them.

 

[Ranksu]

I doubt Army won't do any moves coming season (trade deadline maybe, some mediocre rental for high price).

I don't understand why people are yelling and wanting 1c. We have 1c and its Stastny.

 

[WiscoBlues]

Let's keep in mind only 16 teams make the playoffs.

The goal is to win in the playoffs. Therefore we should really only concern ourselves with top 16 centers, and preferably higher.

18th or 27th ranked center is still only a top line center on a non-playoff team.

You do realize how hard it is to find and develop high end 1Cs right? There isn't a single team out there that would even consider trading a top 16 center for Shattenkirk unless we added big time.

 

[carter333167]

1. Stastny is a solid 1C given the right wingers.
2. Unless this hypothetical 1C that we are seeking also has a sniper shot, he won't fair much better than Stastny (Stas' weakness is his shot...he is a solid playmaker).
3. Regarding point 2, we could actually use another true sniper rather than another center because, at this moment, the only elite shooter on this team is Tank. Shatty arguably has the second best shot. All the dishes in the world aren';t going to do much good if we keep missing the net or shooting them into the goalie's chest protector.
4. We are probably best to stand pat and give Shatty a chance to take a run at the Norris and Stas a chance to play a whole season with better wingers.
5. It's also possible that Lehtera takes another step forward this year and makes everyone more comfortable with the centers we have on the roster.
6. A top 5 center is simply not going to be available....a decent sniper might be available but, in any case, I wouldn't trade Shatty at this point. We'd feel very foolish if he runs off a few years of being competitive for the Norris. His trajectory over the last 3 years has been very consistent improvement. He may very well be a star in two-three years.

 

[Dbrownss]

I agree...need to be looking for another sniper or let Fabbri/Rattie run with the role. Unfortunately....army has a amassed a cluster **** of a roster.

I also forgot Schwartz could easily be that top of the circle in shooter if he'd freaking shoot more. Dude's wrister is sick....

Steen is also a pretty damn good shooter. Backes is another that doesn't get enough credit for his wrist shot. He can pick corner fairly well....but floating and sniping isn't his game.

 

[Hooliganx3]

Giving up Shatty for Couture would be minor upgrade over Backes and Stastny and we have no one to replace Shattenkirk. plus 5 points at forward probably minus 30 from the blueline.

 

[izzy]

I agree...need to be looking for another sniper or let Fabbri/Rattie run with the role. Unfortunately....army has a amassed a cluster **** of a roster.

I also forgot Schwartz could easily be that top of the circle in shooter if he'd freaking shoot more. Dude's wrister is sick....

Steen is also a pretty damn good shooter. Backes is another that doesn't get enough credit for his wrist shot. He can pick corner fairly well....but floating and sniping isn't his game.

Steen just needs to be taking slapshots constantly.

 

[Celtic Note]

Steen just needs to be taking slapshots constantly.

Ugh. Please don't remind me of all the point shots he takes that do not get through.

 

[bluemandan]

This seems like a really poor way to look at it.....

No worse than saying Couture was in the top 30 for points for a center and claiming he is a number 1 center.

It doesn't work that way because of teams like Pittsburgh.

But my point is that the Blues issues are in the playoffs. Not the regular season. So when we make considerations, it should be with that in mind.

But look at the teams that have made the Conference Finals over the past few seasons. Most have a top 16 center. Not just a top 30.

So what I'm trying to point out is that a NHL 1st line center (defined as top 30 in points) is not the same as a NHL 1st line playoff center (defined as top 16 in points).

Neither is a great way to judge, but if one is going to use that method, why bother with non-playoff teams? Especially if we are discussing how to WIN in the playoffs, and not just make them.

You do realize how hard it is to find and develop high end 1Cs right? There isn't a single team out there that would even consider trading a top 16 center for Shattenkirk unless we added big time.

They just fall of trees, right?

Shattenkirk averages 48 points per 82 over the course of his career. He was on a pace to score 65 last season.

The 17th highest scoring center last season scored 65 points last season. The 30th scored 55 points.

I don't want to trade our ~55 point defenseman for a 60 point center. That's horrible asset management. I know it isn't easy to find this kind of player. I don't believe I ever suggested it would be.

But I think you are significantly undervaluing Shattenkirk. He was tied for 20th in scoring amongst defensemen despite missing 24 games last season.