Blues on the market

[MB1]

I'm not celebrating anything. Get some better owners in there, some better managment. St. Louis Blues fans deserve to have a long run of success more than probably any other fan base in hockey.

As a LONGsuffering Blues fan, I thank you for recongizing our loyalty, misery and fidelity!

 

[MB1]

I know when new arenas open they usually get teams to sign long term leases to make sure the team isn't going to up and move town after people spent hundreds of millions building the arena. But why in the heck is the Blues lease for 50 years (arena opened in 1994, the lease is until 2044)? Does anyone think that any of these new stadiums and arenas built around the country in the last 10 years are going to be around in 2044?

Just guessing . . totally guessing . . .could it have something to do with the ability to amortize the value of the lease and depreciate it on a profit and loss statement (i.e. tax purposes)?

 

[PecaFan]

Nobody knows for sure what the team brings in as far as ticket revenue, but it's estimated at about $31M (before luxury boxes) which works out to almost $4M in taxes just on tickets.

Are there any city taxes? If not, they're still taxed way less than the Canadian teams then. For example, Montreal pays $11 or $12 million to the city, and they had to build their own stadium.

 

[MB1]

What I don't like about this is the fact that during all these discussions about who is in trouble, who needs help to survive, who should be sold &/or moved, the subject has been the Carolinas, Panthers, Pens, etc.

Never have we considered that a contender and "established" team would be in this boat.

I'm a Wings fan, but I find it disturbing for the NHL overall that the owner of the Blues would want to sell NOW. It is the worst time, IMO, to sell...and what does it say about the Blues' ownership's confidence in Bettman, the league and the new CBA?

Good question but I don't think it has much of anything to do with Bettman/league/new CBA.

1. The state and local taxes are onerous and while the Rams and Cardinals have been given concessions, the Blues have not.

2. Terrible decisions were made regarding free agency, huge contracts and post-CBA, the Blues are going to be terrible. They are going to have to shed contracts and have very little coming up in the farm system.

3. It is well known that Pronger wants out.

4. Laurie never had a passion for hockey in the first place.

 

[WC Handy*]

Are there any city taxes? If not, they're still taxed way less than the Canadian teams then. For example, Montreal pays $11 or $12 million to the city, and they had to build their own stadium.

The 12.6% per ticket is a 5% entertainment tax that the city charges and the remaining percentage is sales tax which I believe 6% is the state and hte remaining 1.6% is the city, but I could be off on that.

Remember that the 7.6% sales tax would apply to concessions also and that's not included in the estimate that I gave you.

Plus, the city of St Louis has a 1% income tax. So, the city gets 1% of every player salary. But, that doesn't effect the Blues much... except it's a deterant for players considering signing here.

 

[Hawker14]

St. Louis deserves better than the laurie's anyway.

 

[topshelf331]

St. Louis deserves better than the laurie's anyway.

The Lauries were actually pretty damn good to the fans.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Pronger married a woman from St. Louis, he isn't going anywhere.

as a fan who has suffered through the Laurie era, and I for one would like to welcome our new Insect Overlords. I would like to remind them that as a trusted TV personality I could be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar ca....errrr...

It would be nice to have some owners who were not using the Blues as leverage for a BBall team.

Laurie spent more time at Mizzou taking in ball there than he ever did pay attention to the Blues.

The Blues were left to others for operations and I will look forward to the new ownership Deep Sixxing the 'lot of them.

 

[WalterSobchak]

The Lauries were actually pretty damn good to the fans.

maybe you got a 'reach around', but I sure as hell did not.

Sorry! The administrator has specified that users can only post one message every 60 seconds.

 

[topshelf331]

Laurie spent more time at Mizzou taking in ball there than he ever did pay attention to the Blues.

The Blues were left to others for operations and I will look forward to the new ownership Deep Sixxing the 'lot of them.

The Lauries actually didnt miss alot of games. Im a mechanic at the airport they flew into to watch the games.

maybe you got a 'reach around', but I sure as hell did not.

Actually me and several thousand other season tickets holders got great prices for 5 seasons. That is sure to disappear with new ownership.

 

[arinkrat*]

Laurie donated $25M of the $75M it took to build the arena and then wanted to name it "Paige SPORTS Arena" after his company "Paige Sports" which is named after his daughter.

Is Paige Laurie's name still on the arena? I thought there was some talk about removing her name from the building after she was exposed for paying her roomate at USC to write papers for her. Or maybe there were too many legalities for the University to stip her name off the building. Still, it's not a very good representation for an academic institution to have the name of an academic fraud on one of their campus buildings.

 

[Hawker14]

hard to think of the laurie's as good owners when they leave the franchise/arena saddled in $ 225 million debt.

then again, i'm not really tuned into the st.louis sports scene.

 

[barnburner]

Is Paige Laurie's name still on the arena? I thought there was some talk about removing her name from the building after she was exposed for paying her roomate at USC to write papers for her. Or maybe there were too many legalities for the University to stip her name off the building. Still, it's not a very good representation for an academic institution to have the name of an academic fraud on one of their campus buildings.

It was removed fairly quickly.

 

[barnburner]

The Lauries actually didnt miss alot of games. Im a mechanic at the airport they flew into to watch the games.







Actually me and several thousand other season tickets holders got great prices for 5 seasons. That is sure to disappear with new ownership.

Absolutely. How many nhl arenas have tickets for $15 at the gate - $8 for season ticket holders? Top that off with all the various 2 for 1 specials they run, and almost anyone can afford to take in a game now and then. That's pretty important to me, being retired. If they go back up to the prices before the Lauries took over - I'll be lucky to be able to go to one game a year.

 

[topshelf331]

hard to think of the laurie's as good owners when they leave the franchise/arena saddled in $ 225 million debt.

then again, i'm not really tuned into the st.louis sports scene.

The blues were saddled in debtr when they bought the team. From the financial side they didnt do so great , but they sure treated the fans right.

 

[Timmy]

The blues were saddled in debtr when they bought the team. From the financial side they didnt do so great , but they sure treated the fans right.

It was hardly the Lauries' fault.

They'd run Wal-Mart for so long, they figured they were getting revenue in US dollars, and paying the players in Bahts.

Once they realized they were paying Pronger 10 million US Dollars, they realized it was time to sell.

They'll make more money with NHL jerseys manufactured in Thailand than they would with a team anyways.

They're also upset that the league didn't allow them to change the name of the team to the St. Louis Blue Vests.

Too close to Blue Jackets, apparently.

 

[arinkrat*]

"The Lauries made the decision to sell the team and the Savvis Center because they can no longer justify remaining active in a business which has lost more than $60 million in the past two years and is certain to continue to lose millions annually in the years ahead," Blues president Mark Sauer said in a statement."

Can someone help me understand how this lease works? If the city owns the building and the Blues have a longterm lease, how can the Lauries sell the Savvis Center? Is it the rights to the lease they are selling rather than the building itself? How do these longterm leases work? Even though the city owns the building, does the lessee assume all operating costs and debt service on the building as well as earn the revenue generated by the events held in the building while it is being leased? So the Blues situation is different from a team who doesn't own its home arena and pays the owner/management for the use of the building to play it's games? Thanks.

 

[FlyersFan10*]

"The Lauries made the decision to sell the team and the Savvis Center because they can no longer justify remaining active in a business which has lost more than $60 million in the past two years and is certain to continue to lose millions annually in the years ahead," Blues president Mark Sauer said in a statement."

Can someone help me understand how this lease works? If the city owns the building and the Blues have a longterm lease, how can the Lauries sell the Savvis Center? Is it the rights to the lease they are selling rather than the building itself? How do these longterm leases work? Even though the city owns the building, does the lessee assume all operating costs and debt service on the building as well as earn the revenue generated by the events held in the building while it is being leased? So the Blues situation is different from a team who doesn't own its home arena and pays the owner/management for the use of the building to play it's games? Thanks.

The St.Louis Blues are selling the lease to the Savis Center. That is what they own. There are a few things though which kind of make me wonder about the amount of money lost. If they claim that they have lost over $200 million over the past six years, then something doesn't add up. I mean, they lease the center, but yet they're making mortgage payments on the center? That doesn't add up unless they're leasing to own. If that's the case, then yes, they're going to lose money over the next little while until the lease is paid off. Once it's paid off, then it's a go with regards to revenue generating.

See, this is a reason why there should be FULL revenue and debt sharing in the league. If you want to ensure profitability of all organizations, you pool all your resources together, distribute accordingly, and you're well on your way to creating a financially viable league. But as long as there will be franchises that refuse to spend or refuse to share, none of this will ever happen.

 

[barnburner]

In addition to their lease payments on the building - the Blues have to cover all expenses involved with the building,including 7 million in debt service yearly- in contrast to the agreement the city has with the Rams building, where the everything is taken care of for the Rams.
In addition, there is the matter of the 12.6 % tax on all revenue involved with the Savvis Centre.
The city owns the building - Laurie is selling the lease rights along with the team.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

More background on Kiel/Savvis....

When Civic Progress owned the Blues in the early '90s, they self-financed the construction of Kiel Center at an estimated cost of $100 million. (Of course, they then had to add another $1.5 million b/c they forgot to include the machinery to produce an ice surface, but let's just run with $100 million for the moment.) In the mid-90s, the franchise required at least 4 "cash-calls" totaling about $70 million. (edited to reflect figures in a St. Louis P-D news story)

Why the infusions of cash? Because the arena was financed to be paid off over 10 years - thus higher debt payments were required to pay off the loan. Then figure that in the last year of the Keenan era, paid attendance was about 15,000 with actual attendance estimated at perhaps 12,000...with the exception of the Gretzky era when the arena pretty much sold out to the tune of 20,000 paid, occupied seats. That gap hurt the projected revenues for the team, and was what required the cash calls to help make debt payments. Add in the $$$ spent on free-agents, and the team didn't generate the money it needed to pay its bills.

Enter Laurie. He bought the arena, team, and arena parking garage for $100 million...and reportedly also financed it over 10-15 years, thus requiring higher debt payments. Under previous ownership in the '90s, team payroll had exceeded team revenues but it was manageable b/c there was a "war chest" which the franchise used as a reserve to make the acquisitions of Stevens, Shanahan, Nedved, etc. etc...so they were in the red, but had cash to back it up.

Not the Laurie era - the team slashed ticket prices and consequently drastically overspent revenues in an attempt to win the CupRIGHTNOW. Changing philosophies every six months, trying to "buy the Cup", ...when it didn't happen overnight, Laurie got impatient with how things had gone and closed the checkbook but didn't do anything about the $63 million in payroll still on the books. Unable to move players to better live within the team's revenue, the franchise had no choice but to run in the red to the tune of $24-40 million.

Bad management? You bet it was, from about 1994-present. Blues fans deserved better, and stayed loyal through most of the ride holding out hope that ownership would finally get a plan on track that would (a) make sense, and (b) get the Cup to St.Louis. Neither ever happened...and hopefully we'll find owners who can do (a) so we'll finally experience (b).

BTW...as much as the Blues get blamed for the escalation of salaries, it wasn't the $1 million offer to Stevens (who had already been an NHL all-star more than once) or pursuing Brendan Shanahan or Petr Nedved that knocked the salary structure of the NHL out of whack - it was guys like Dave Thomlinson getting $600,000 in 1993, Stephane Quintal getting $4 million/yr and Sylvain Lefebvre getting $5 million/yr from the Rangers, and other mid-to-low level guys who got 1st-line and 2nd-line $$$ that caused salaries to take off.

 

[Hasbro]

BTW...as much as the Blues get blamed for the escalation of salaries, it wasn't the $1 million offer to Stevens (who had already been an NHL all-star more than once) or pursuing Brendan Shanahan or Petr Nedved that knocked the salary structure of the NHL out of whack - it was guys like Dave Thomlinson getting $600,000 in 1993, Stephane Quintal getting $4 million/yr and Sylvain Lefebvre getting $5 million/yr from the Rangers, and other mid-to-low level guys who got 1st-line and 2nd-line $$$ that caused salaries to take off.

How about Joe Murphy then?

 

[Guy Legend]

How about Joe Murphy then?

What about $5 million for Martin Lapointe? Or the ridiculous money being thrown over to Bobby Holik.

The Rangers are the worst offenders. Teams like Detroit, Colorado, Philadelphia, etc. are also just as responsible.

 

[kimzey59]

3. It is well known that Pronger wants out.

This statement is 100% False. Pronger has said, very publicly I might add, that he wants to remain in St. Louis. He has tried numerous times to negotiate a long term deal with the team but Pleau never got the OK from Laurie to do so. Pronger wants to remain in St. Louis and his reason for that is very simple: if he were to leave he would be giving up a HUGE amount of money to his wife due to his pre-nup. In fact, based on the story Bernie did on Friday it might even be possible that Pronger is looking to buy into the team(his exact statement was that a player "currently with the team" might also be a possible buyer, the only people on the team other than Pronger who have the funds to buy the team are Tkachuk and MacInnis). Nothing has been said to indicate that Pronger wants out and everything that has been said indicates that he wants to stay.

 

[Hasbro]

What about $5 million for Martin Lapointe? Or the ridiculous money being thrown over to Bobby Holik.

The Rangers are the worst offenders. Teams like Detroit, Colorado, Philadelphia, etc. are also just as responsible.

I can see Pronger, Tkachuk and Weight being justified, but the Keenan era Blues were the poster children for profligacy.

I must admit this is making me relieved Laurie wasn't able to buy the Avs and Nuggets.

 

[GKJ]

As a LONGsuffering Blues fan, I thank you for recongizing our loyalty, misery and fidelity!

What can I say, I call it like I see it. Fans deserve better than to have their team make the playoffs 30 straight years, and only get to the conference finals twice, and never get to the finals. I like them more than I don't, but I don't consider myself a fan, however more times than not I find myself rooting for the Blues than I don't (playing one of Dallas, Detroit or Colorado every year does that)


At least St. Louis had a parade at some point in the past 22 years (unlike Philadelphia)