Post-Game Talk: Blue Jackets at Rangers 12/12/2013

[TheTakedown]

Nash:

Dubinsky:

The former is unquestionably more talented, but the latter can actually help a team win.

It's the difference between being content to put up individual numbers and being unwilling to lose. It's the difference between being blinded by names/egos/skill in a vacuum and knowing how a winning team is constructed. It's the difference between pre-2005 lockout Rangers and post-lockout Rangers.

For six years, Sather stayed the course and that course was finally beginning to bear fruit. Then he got stupid and gave the idiotic majority of our fan base exactly what they wanted (ie- the worst thing possible for the team's success).

Congratulations to the 98 percent of you who roared about that trade. You got what you wanted. The team has more "skill." They just had to mortgage most of what made them successful to get it.

You know what... This make sense... You don't think sather realized that? I know he isn't the smartest but.... My take is this:

Sather anticipated a lockout and therefore a shortened season... here is how he approached it:

Let me get rid if two guys that won't be here long for a true scorer... With only a 48 game season and with the team that played so well last year, this is my shot to get a cup finally...

But look what happened. The unthinkable...
Richards had his worst season
Gabs couldn't buy a goal
Nash hadn't learned any systems or play styles
Team had minimal practices and a horribly short training camp together
Replacements were not adequate

I mean literally... 12-13 was the worst of the worst... We were going down a solid road.

But look... Everything failed. 11-12 and 12-13 were our chances for a cup. We missed it.... Cry about the nash trade all you want. It wasn't a mistake. It was a RISK... If sather hadn't done it you guys would be complaining "he did nothing in the off season to fix scoring woes"... Hetook the leap and missed the other side...

Moving on, management will need to take a good hard look at where they are going to take this team...

Its up to AV to determine who on this club plays like they actually give a damn

Its up to scouts to determine what type of players to sign for AV to work with

Its up the gorten and sather to wisely decide who this new core is for AVs team...

I'm just as upset as everyone else, but nash was the logical choice for 12-13... It didn't work, were going back to 2005... It sucks, but it is what it is.



Personally, everyone needs to be traded except:
Hank
MCD
Stralman
Mdz
J Moore
D moore
Dorsett
Zucc
Step (on the fence about him)
Kreider


Realistically that leaves us with:
A 2nd line
A Top 4 defense
Half of a 4th line

The reason why everyone else needs to go is simple:
Heart is part of it, skill is part of it, but mainly this is MENTAL... We have SO many dumb hockey players. It really stuck out today. Watching hagelin just wander away from his man was awful. Watching pouliot turn the puck over constantly is horrific. Watching poor Brian Boyle trying to be the lone offensive catalyst is downright frightening. Watching Nash be clueless in the zone and trying to wander through 4 guys on his own is sickening...

That's what it is... We really just have a lot of dumb players. There's a mental ceiling. Maybe some of these guys are not this dumb... Maybe it takes some of these "professionals" an entire season of suckage to learn a new system... Or maybe, just maybe, these guys really aren't NHL caliber...

I'd like to know who else would want Taylor pyatt or Benoit pouliot... I can't tthink of a reason.. Can you?

 

[ca5150]

I'm bias of course, but we have a solid group of young players that came from the draft. Johanson, Atkinson, Calvert, Murray, Boone Jenner. Not to mention the 2 first rounders this year that will make an impact in the next couple years. Mix that with Dubi, Arte, Horton, Bob, Foligno and Gaborik if he steps up his play, so far he's been a floater, and I think we have a good shot at the playoffs. We are 1 pt out without having dressed our full team for any game this season. Bob will rebound and Horton will make a big impact. Letestu will be in the press box when we get healthy.

 

[RothmanHockey]

NEW YORK – It wasn’t how the Rangers finished. It was how they started.

The Blue Jackets not only scored the game’s first goal just 38 seconds into Thursday night’s game at Madison Square Garden, they scored the game’s first three goals – all within the first 11 minutes, 10 seconds. Just like that, Henrik Lundqvist (10 saves) was off the ice and on the bench, and the Rangers (15-17-1) were well behind the eight ball en-route to a 4-2 loss.

http://insidehockey.com/slow-start-sends-rangers-to-another-home-loss

 

[Charlie Conway]

You know what... This make sense... You don't think sather realized that? I know he isn't the smartest but.... My take is this:

Sather anticipated a lockout and therefore a shortened season... here is how he approached it:

Let me get rid if two guys that won't be here long for a true scorer... With only a 48 game season and with the team that played so well last year, this is my shot to get a cup finally...

But look what happened. The unthinkable...
Richards had his worst season
Gabs couldn't buy a goal
Nash hadn't learned any systems or play styles
Team had minimal practices and a horribly short training camp together
Replacements were not adequate

I mean literally... 12-13 was the worst of the worst... We were going down a solid road.

But look... Everything failed. 11-12 and 12-13 were our chances for a cup. We missed it.... Cry about the nash trade all you want. It wasn't a mistake. It was a RISK... If sather hadn't done it you guys would be complaining "he did nothing in the off season to fix scoring woes"... Hetook the leap and missed the other side...

Moving on, management will need to take a good hard look at where they are going to take this team...

Its up to AV to determine who on this club plays like they actually give a damn

Its up to scouts to determine what type of players to sign for AV to work with

Its up the gorten and sather to wisely decide who this new core is for AVs team...

I'm just as upset as everyone else, but nash was the logical choice for 12-13... It didn't work, were going back to 2005... It sucks, but it is what it is.



Personally, everyone needs to be traded except:
Hank
MCD
Stralman
Mdz
J Moore
D moore
Dorsett
Zucc
Step (on the fence about him)
Kreider


Realistically that leaves us with:
A 2nd line
A Top 4 defense
Half of a 4th line

The reason why everyone else needs to go is simple:
Heart is part of it, skill is part of it, but mainly this is MENTAL... We have SO many dumb hockey players. It really stuck out today. Watching hagelin just wander away from his man was awful. Watching pouliot turn the puck over constantly is horrific. Watching poor Brian Boyle trying to be the lone offensive catalyst is downright frightening. Watching Nash be clueless in the zone and trying to wander through 4 guys on his own is sickening...

That's what it is... We really just have a lot of dumb players. There's a mental ceiling. Maybe some of these guys are not this dumb... Maybe it takes some of these "professionals" an entire season of suckage to learn a new system... Or maybe, just maybe, these guys really aren't NHL caliber...

I'd like to know who else would want Taylor pyatt or Benoit pouliot... I can't tthink of a reason.. Can you?

This is how I'm feeling. Hank is aging, and if the org is sold on him as our guy in net, then they have to make the attempt. There's not questioning this team is screwed up. May as well be time for a rebuild. I've maintained for a while now that 11-12 was our year statistically in terms of everything seeming to come together. We just didn't last in the playoffs. Took the risk in 12-13, it failed quite badly, and we now have to deal with the results.

The problem--this is New York, and New York demands results. There's no patience in this organization. Seems management is more interested in getting star players to boost merch sales, but it's hard to field a good, competitive team when you're trying for the all-stars. Hard to sign a bunch of all-stars (or, in our case, aging all-stars) to begin with when there's a salary cap. In other words, the FA route isn't working, hasn't worked, and most likely won't work until you grow your own talent capable of playing a strong game. The all-stars (if they're not homegrown) should be supplemental. Did people really expect Nash to single-handedly fix our scoring woes?

Anisimov and Dubi combined for 70 points in 2011-2012. Staggering numbers? No. Nash CAN be a ppg player, but 70 points is a reasonable expectation. He goes on a cold streak? There goes his production.

Guys like Feds, John Mitchell, Boyle, and Prust might not have been lighting up the scoreboard (though they did chip in more than this bottom 6), but they played hard. I understand letting Prust go with the money he was asking (debatable, yes), but I would've re-signed Mitchell and Fedotenko. Hindsight is 20/20, of course.

2011-2012 was a good year--we had homegrown talent, supplemental pieces in the bottom 6, and star players in Nash and Ritchie. It didn't work, so we went all-in for 2012-2013, and it failed. What now? Rebuild.

But, as I said, this is New York. We'll buy out Ritchie, let some guys walk (or trade them for aging stars or picks we'll then trade), and then throw money at the best UFA on the market.

 

[Cake or Death]

Let's be honest here. When Renney was fired we were playing BORING hockey. Like falling asleep in my chair at MSG boring.Torts is hired, we open it up a bit with safe is death mantra, & we start getting hammered. Torts did not whine openly about not having the offensive players, no he adapted & made us a solid team that won, that was exciting that other teams feared. We all know how it turns out in the end with Torts. Now we have Av who I don't think can adapt. Av was blessed with some great offensive talent & good two way players, we don't have any of that.

The one guy I wish we never let go off was Anmsinov. He was the perfect 3rd line center who could play on the PP & PK & maybe we would be rid of Boyle. Having Boyle & Moore on the same team is redundant.

I think Lundqvist playing amazingly in net had a lot to do with that. People, for whatever reason, seem to forget Torts start here was meh and the team missed the playoffs his first full season. And we were getting hemmed in our own end for literally minutes at a time last season and that team was scaring no one.

I'll give Torts due credit for doing some things very well, because he honestly did. But the PP was unacceptable and the team became very beatable. The one excellent season they did have, Hank was exceptional and the team literally looked dead by round three.

Granted, the team looks sucktastic right now, but let's not delude ourselves that Torts had a better start in his first full season when he didn't. AV and Torts through 33 games in their first full seasons in NY:

AV - 15-17-1, 31 pts
Torts - 14-16-3, 31 pts

Looks to me like kinda similar results. And for what it's worth, in Torts first full season here, by the 33rd game, which is where the team is at now, the Rangers had just finished a 9 game stretch where they had only one win.

 

[Inferno]

I think Lundqvist playing amazingly in net had a lot to do with that. People, for whatever reason, seem to forget Torts start here was meh and the team missed the playoffs his first full season. And we were getting hemmed in our own end for literally minutes at a time last season and that team was scaring no one.

I'll give Torts due credit for doing some things very well, because he honestly did. But the PP was unacceptable and the team became very beatable. The one excellent season they did have, Hank was exceptional and the team literally looked dead by round three.

Granted, the team looks sucktastic right now, but let's not delude ourselves that Torts had a better start in his first full season when he didn't. AV and Torts through 33 games in their first full seasons in NY:

AV - 15-17-1, 31 pts
Torts - 14-16-3, 31 pts

Looks to me like kinda similar results.

Agreed.

I think the key here is to get AV guys to play his game.

Way too many players here are not built to playt his kinda game...like, basically our entire bottom 6.

too many passengers on this team.

 

[Rangers ftw]

That wasn't pretty.

Good: McIlrath did't **** up completely. Boyle.
OK: Pouliat, MDZ, MZA.

Redden: Rick "the invisible give away king" Nash

 

[theJUMPER]

Anybody that positively responds to a post agreeing with the statement that dubinsky is as good as a player as Nash and that the downfall of the NYR that played (struggled) with the 7th, n 8th seeds in 2011-12 was that trade, is a borderline Pejorative Slur.

Thank you.

 

[Boruto]

Too bad! There's always next game!

 

[SKjEi o2]

I thought Gaborik and Torts had a falling out. That's why Gaborik waived his no trade clause.

If this is true then Sather had no choice but to trade him.

 

[JHS]

This was excruciating to watch. Best part of the game was Sam and JD's second intermission time. I'll be looking forward to the show about Sam.

Honestly, what is going on here? We had almost no chance last night because of injuries and the all but to go down 3-0 at home vs the Columbus Blue Jackets- absurd. It's painfully obvious that many, many players on this team are done, both as players at te NHL level and as New York Rangers.

It's not hard to see the mistakes. How much gliding around the ice so you see each night? How much reaching for the puck do you see our players doing rather than taking the extra stride to try and get the puck? How many times do you see the Rangers take the easy way out( not make that check, chip the puck out of the zone rather than skate it out)? These are literally signs of players who have completely given up and are just coasting. It's not even close to good enough. Truthfully what else does Sather need to see?

The thing that bothers me the most is none of the players seem to be pushing each other to even compete! That's why we need a complete shifting of the roster.

I'd break this down this way in terms of how to start the movement out of this mess-

Get rid of the following guys as soon as humanely possible-( like release them or trade for "a bag of pucks)

Pyatt
Pouliott
Asham( why he is up here is beyond human comprehension, he does not even care and did literally nothing in the two games so far)

Try and move these guys but don't just give them away-( like try for a low to mid level prospect- 6th or 7th round pick type trade)

Boyle

Make some phone calls and see what other gm's would give up-( must try to get a higher round draft pick round 3 or higher and/or( in some casses) at least one or 2 NHL guys back)

Nash
Callahan
Stepan
Girardi
Stall
Hagelin
Brassard
Del Zotto

We can't just keep this current roster together any longer. Please don't fire the coach, that would be te complete worst decision, would send the message once again that the players are in charge( we are seeing where that get's us right now.)

 

[abev]

I'm bias of course, but we have a solid group of young players that came from the draft. Johanson, Atkinson, Calvert, Murray, Boone Jenner. Not to mention the 2 first rounders this year that will make an impact in the next couple years. Mix that with Dubi, Arte, Horton, Bob, Foligno and Gaborik if he steps up his play, so far he's been a floater, and I think we have a good shot at the playoffs. We are 1 pt out without having dressed our full team for any game this season. Bob will rebound and Horton will make a big impact. Letestu will be in the press box when we get healthy.

You have all good point, including the bolded. But when you say "so far" I think you mean so far in his career. The best thing that can happen to CBJ is Gaborik getting hurt.

 

[mulli25]

So does Biron feel like playing again?

As far as I'm concerned, he can start in net on Sunday.

Maybe Weeks or Vally want to back him up.

 

[chosen]

I like Kreider's chance at a future but he still disappears way more than he should. I understand he is still the shiny new toy, but no one here ever criticizes him, while lambasting Stepan.

 

[Rangers ftw]

This was excruciating to watch. Best part of the game was Sam and JD's second intermission time. I'll be looking forward to the show about Sam.

Honestly, what is going on here? We had almost no chance last night because of injuries and the all but to go down 3-0 at home vs the Columbus Blue Jackets- absurd. It's painfully obvious that many, many players on this team are done, both as players at te NHL level and as New York Rangers.

It's not hard to see the mistakes. How much gliding around the ice so you see each night? How much reaching for the puck do you see our players doing rather than taking the extra stride to try and get the puck? How many times do you see the Rangers take the easy way out( not make that check, chip the puck out of the zone rather than skate it out)? These are literally signs of players who have completely given up and are just coasting. It's not even close to good enough. Truthfully what else does Sather need to see?

The thing that bothers me the most is none of the players seem to be pushing each other to even compete! That's why we need a complete shifting of the roster.

I'd break this down this way in terms of how to start the movement out of this mess-

Get rid of the following guys as soon as humanely possible-( like release them or trade for "a bag of pucks)

Pyatt
Pouliott
Asham( why he is up here is beyond human comprehension, he does not even care and did literally nothing in the two games so far)

Try and move these guys but don't just give them away-( like try for a low to mid level prospect- 6th or 7th round pick type trade)

Boyle

Make some phone calls and see what other gm's would give up-( must try to get a higher round draft pick round 3 or higher and/or( in some casses) at least one or 2 NHL guys back)

Nash
Callahan
Stepan
Girardi
Stall
Hagelin
Brassard
Del Zotto

We can't just keep this current roster together any longer. Please don't fire the coach, that would be te complete worst decision, would send the message once again that the players are in charge( we are seeing where that get's us right now.)

#fail

And I don't agree about Hagelin, Stepan, Boyle, Nash.

While I think Nash is overrated and right now under performing; there is no way we replace him without overpaying a UFA or trading away a lot.

I'd also like to keep Staal if he resign.

 

[Dr. Ogrodnick]

I like Kreider's chance at a future but he still disappears way more than he should. I understand he is still the shiny new toy, but no one here ever criticizes him, while lambasting Stepan.

Kreider is a rookie, Stepan was looking for 5 mil per last offseason. Besides, other than the last few games when the entire team has stunk, Kreider has been much better than Stepan.

 

[Ail]

I like Kreider's chance at a future but he still disappears way more than he should. I understand he is still the shiny new toy, but no one here ever criticizes him, while lambasting Stepan.

Kreider is still a rookie technically. Stepan just held out for a bigger raise. I think he probably deserves more critcism than Kreider at the moment.

 

[bubba5]

No words is worth the time on this team. This season is going down the tubes fast, soon games will be meaningless. By February we will be hoping for some major tanking if they had not started it already.

 

[RangersHank*]

You know what... This make sense... You don't think sather realized that? I know he isn't the smartest but.... My take is this:

Sather anticipated a lockout and therefore a shortened season... here is how he approached it:

Let me get rid if two guys that won't be here long for a true scorer... With only a 48 game season and with the team that played so well last year, this is my shot to get a cup finally...

But look what happened. The unthinkable...
Richards had his worst season
Gabs couldn't buy a goal
Nash hadn't learned any systems or play styles
Team had minimal practices and a horribly short training camp together
Replacements were not adequate

I mean literally... 12-13 was the worst of the worst... We were going down a solid road.

But look... Everything failed. 11-12 and 12-13 were our chances for a cup. We missed it.... Cry about the nash trade all you want. It wasn't a mistake. It was a RISK... If sather hadn't done it you guys would be complaining "he did nothing in the off season to fix scoring woes"... Hetook the leap and missed the other side...

Moving on, management will need to take a good hard look at where they are going to take this team...

Its up to AV to determine who on this club plays like they actually give a damn

Its up to scouts to determine what type of players to sign for AV to work with

Its up the gorten and sather to wisely decide who this new core is for AVs team...

I'm just as upset as everyone else, but nash was the logical choice for 12-13... It didn't work, were going back to 2005... It sucks, but it is what it is.



Personally, everyone needs to be traded except:
Hank
MCD
Stralman
Mdz
J Moore
D moore
Dorsett
Zucc
Step (on the fence about him)
Kreider


Realistically that leaves us with:
A 2nd line
A Top 4 defense
Half of a 4th line

The reason why everyone else needs to go is simple:
Heart is part of it, skill is part of it, but mainly this is MENTAL... We have SO many dumb hockey players. It really stuck out today. Watching hagelin just wander away from his man was awful. Watching pouliot turn the puck over constantly is horrific. Watching poor Brian Boyle trying to be the lone offensive catalyst is downright frightening. Watching Nash be clueless in the zone and trying to wander through 4 guys on his own is sickening...

That's what it is... We really just have a lot of dumb players. There's a mental ceiling. Maybe some of these guys are not this dumb... Maybe it takes some of these "professionals" an entire season of suckage to learn a new system... Or maybe, just maybe, these guys really aren't NHL caliber...

I'd like to know who else would want Taylor pyatt or Benoit pouliot... I can't tthink of a reason.. Can you?

Regarding the Nash trade, there WAS other ways to bring in other guys who can chip in a few goals. Keep that 11-12 team together and add two faster two way players and another dman and who knows? Trades could have been made. You act as if Nash was the only way to help the scoring, which it didnt.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I like Kreider's chance at a future but he still disappears way more than he should. I understand he is still the shiny new toy, but no one here ever criticizes him, while lambasting Stepan.

Agreed. besides the Vancouver game, hes been back to being invisible in the last several weeks. He needs to start moving his feet again.

SOMEONE needs to take charge here.

 

[Garv23]

I'm curious as to why Hagelin seems to get a pass around here. He has done nothing except skate fast. When he stays on his skates that is.

 

[TheTakedown]

I'm curious as to why Hagelin seems to get a pass around here. He has done nothing except skate fast. When he stays on his skates that is.

I personally have done nothing but rave on him for the last 2 days

 

[McD27]

I think Lundqvist playing amazingly in net had a lot to do with that. People, for whatever reason, seem to forget Torts start here was meh and the team missed the playoffs his first full season. And we were getting hemmed in our own end for literally minutes at a time last season and that team was scaring no one.

I'll give Torts due credit for doing some things very well, because he honestly did. But the PP was unacceptable and the team became very beatable. The one excellent season they did have, Hank was exceptional and the team literally looked dead by round three.

Granted, the team looks sucktastic right now, but let's not delude ourselves that Torts had a better start in his first full season when he didn't. AV and Torts through 33 games in their first full seasons in NY:

AV - 15-17-1, 31 pts
Torts - 14-16-3, 31 pts

Looks to me like kinda similar results. And for what it's worth, in Torts first full season here, by the 33rd game, which is where the team is at now, the Rangers had just finished a 9 game stretch where they had only one win.

So what you are saying is AV will realize he does not have the skill players to play his style and in order to have our best chance of winning, we will have to go back to playing torts' dark ages style and the 6 goalie system. Hank will be Hank again and every game will end 0-0 and will be decided by the SO. We'll squeak into the playoffs and win one or two rounds at most. Life will be great again.

 

[Ail]

So what you are saying is AV will realize he does not have the skill players to play his style and in order to have our best chance of winning, we will have to go back to playing torts' dark ages style and the 6 goalie system. Hank will be Hank again and every game will end 0-0 and will be decided by the SO. We'll squeak into the playoffs and win one or two rounds at most. Life will be great again.

Yeah that sounds pretty awesome.

 

[chosen]

Kreider is a rookie, Stepan was looking for 5 mil per last offseason. Besides, other than the last few games when the entire team has stunk, Kreider has been much better than Stepan.

Kreider is 10 months younger than Stepan. I don't hold it against Stepan that he showed NHL ability earlier than Kreider. Kreider may end up better, but that is far from a given, and aside from a relatively small sample size, Kreider has only shown glimpses. Stepan has already shown he can put a good season together.

Kreider is bigger and faster but Stepan is a very smart player. I hope they both turn out great.

My only point is that those here who think Kreider is untouchable and that losing Stepan would be no big deal are dealing more with hope for the newer player than what we have seen so far.