Blinkage, Linkage & Stinkage (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XVII

[Mercurial]

Maybe we should give every player the option to become UFA. New CBA, new contracts! Why not?

50 round ultra-draft.

 

[MagicSlap*]

I'm sorry but I just don't see how anybody who has been following this over the last year, has run the numbers, understands the deals and is objective can think the players are being reasonable here.

 

[SuperUnknown]

The comparison with other leagues is a bit of a red herring: NHL players were the first league to agree to a cap without a substantial amount of revenue-sharing. Nobody here defending the owners today was saying in 2004-05 that the owners were being unreasonable by trying to be the only league to get a cap without a substantial amount of revenue sharing. The fact is the players have seen what's happened in other leagues and accepted it, which is why they're willing to accept 50-50.

Well MLB doesn't have a cap and they pay their players under 50% of revenues too.

Also, the players have not offered a 50-50 linked deal yet. Their best offer so far would be 52-57% in their favor over the length of the deal depending on the league's revenue growth.

 

[CN_paladin]

I'm sorry but I just don't see how anybody who has been following this over the last year, has run the numbers, understands the deals and is objective can think the players are being reasonable here.

Exactly!

People who have zero financial education and can't run any numbers can't make smart financial decisions.

 

[General Fanager]

I'm sorry but I just don't see how anybody who has been following this over the last year, has run the numbers, understands the deals and is objective can think the players are being reasonable here.

I agree.

TBH I dont even think the players understand most of this.

 

[Freudian]

It wasn't close enough to the players' side to negotiate from. Remember it's not just the economics of the proposal but the contract lengths, restricted free agency, changes to arbitration, etc.

It's just as stupid for the NHL to demand the PA negotiate off their proposal that the PA keeps offering up proposals that de-link salaries from revenues.

I would just like for once the NHL and PA to sit down and say, "okay, tell me why your deal is good for the league/players." Look at both sides, absorb the information, then try and work on each piece separately.

NHL is a cap league. As long as NHLPA isn't willing to negotiate accepting a cap where HRR and player compensation are linked, there isn't anything do discuss.

Fehr knows this and thus his posturing about NHLPA being willing to meet without preconditions is meaningless since his precondition is a fundamental change in how a cap funtions.

 

[kdb209]

Let's not forget that there wouldn't have been a deal in baseball if it wasn't for a Supreme Court decision by Sotomayor who sided with the players.

In 1995 Sotomayor was just a District Court justice in New York when she upheld a NLRB Unfair Labor Practice finding against the owners and issued an injunction to prevent them from unilaterally imposing changes - including abolishing salary arbitration, centralizing player negotiations with the commissioner’s office and ending an agreement not to collude on salaries.

 

[marcel snapshot]

And he's grown the business of the NHL greatly since he's taken over.

And right now he's excelling at pissing off die-hard hockey fans and making hockey irrelevant to everyone else.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I'm sorry but I just don't see how anybody who has been following this over the last year, has run the numbers, understands the deals and is objective can think the players are being reasonable here.

Most people that claim to be on the player's side are doing it because they think this is about class warfare: it's about the haves and the have nots, the rich vs the poor (less rich), the powerful versus the weak.
Basically delusionals.

 

[Jarick]

I don't think that's true...most articles I've read describe the negotiations as being a fiasco because of both sides - and the comments i read from fans (and hear on the radio) has people raging at both sides for being idiots. On this board people seems to be very sympathetic towards the owners...but I think the "public sentiment" (to the extent there is one) is that both sides have behaved badly and deserve to lose money.

I'd agree that most actual articles written about the lockout is fairly critical of both sides, but I'm seeing about 85% of people against the players, 5% against the owners, and 10% equally upset with both.

 

[iceblue]

And right now he's excelling at pissing off die-hard hockey fans and making hockey irrelevant to everyone else.

Touche' ... I am pissed off and the majority of folks I work with don't even realize there are no NHL games yet.

 

[Jarick]

Most people that claim to be on the player's side are doing it because they think this is about class warfare: it's about the haves and the have nots, the rich vs the poor (less rich), the powerful versus the weak.
Basically delusionals.

Pretty much the opposite of what I'm seeing. Most people against them think the players make too much money. Look at the thread below.

 

[Jarick]

NHL is a cap league. As long as NHLPA isn't willing to negotiate accepting a cap where HRR and player compensation are linked, there isn't anything do discuss.

Fehr knows this and thus his posturing about NHLPA being willing to meet without preconditions is meaningless since his precondition is a fundamental change in how a cap funtions.

Players haven't gone after the cap in a single proposal and your explanation really has nothing to do with how a cap functions. If you changed "cap" to "revenue share calculations", I'd agree with you.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

I'd agree that most actual articles written about the lockout is fairly critical of both sides, but I'm seeing about 85% of people against the players, 5% against the owners, and 10% equally upset with both.

Pretty much the opposite of what I'm seeing. Most people against them think the players make too much money. Look at the thread below.

where are you actually seeing this? on the call in shows i've listened to most people are raging at the owners and players both. same with comments you see posted after articles, etc. you get some complaining that the players are greedy or complaining about gary bettman - but most seem to be disgusted at the situation itself.

 

[kanuck87]

I agree.

TBH I dont even think the players understand most of this.

I dont think the players knew what they were getting themselves into when they hired Donald Fehr. Is he even fighting for the players or is he just fighting for his own legacy? It sounds like he's telling the players what they should want instead of listening to what they actually want, which is to play hockey.

 

[Jarick]

I'm sorry but I just don't see how anybody who has been following this over the last year, has run the numbers, understands the deals and is objective can think the players are being reasonable here.

This would be maybe the one pro-owner statement I can agree with. I can't understand why the players are acting the way they are.

I don't like how the NHL has handled this lockout but the players have handled it worse. Not from a PR standpoint, but from a reasonable standpoint. They don't get paid unless they have a deal and they don't get have a long time to make money. Doesn't mean I like what the NHL is doing, I think it's pretty low, but that's the reality.

 

[Jarick]

where are you actually seeing this? on the call in shows i've listened to most people are raging at the owners and players both. same with comments you see posted after articles, etc. you get some complaining that the players are greedy or complaining about gary bettman - but most seem to be disgusted at the situation itself.

Pretty much just here, Twitter, and comments after articles.

Radio here is obsessed with NFL, MLB, and NBA...haven't even heard a single phone call about the lockout all year

 

[kanuck87]

I'd agree that most actual articles written about the lockout is fairly critical of both sides, but I'm seeing about 85% of people against the players, 5% against the owners, and 10% equally upset with both.

I'm not mad at the owners because they have a right to make money. Let me know when active players start investing hundreds of millions of dollars and then maybe I'll start to show them some sympathy.

 

[Jarick]

No it doesn't

So Kelly's idea of expansion/relocation and splitting the fees 50/50 with the players would be shot down immediately

 

[chicagoskycam]

Pretty much the opposite of what I'm seeing. Most people against them think the players make too much money. Look at the thread below.

When being discussed on local sports radio or the news, the dissatisfaction has been with the NHL as a whole. Nobody is keying on players tweets like this board is doing. Same happened with the NBA and NFL lockouts.

 

[Jarick]

I'm not mad at the owners because they have a right to make money. Let me know when active players start investing hundreds of millions of dollars and then maybe I'll start to show them some sympathy.

Nobody's talking about the players' right to make money and the owners' right to profits (in all forms which is much bigger than just HRR).

 

[Jarick]

When being discussed on local sports radio or the news, the dissatisfaction has been with the NHL as a whole. Nobody is keying on players tweets like this board is doing. Same happened with the NBA and NFL lockouts.

That's cool to know...and kind of shows how we're out of touch on this board

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

Pretty much just here, Twitter, and comments after articles.

Radio here is obsessed with NFL, MLB, and NBA...haven't even heard a single phone call about the lockout all year

I think it's a bit different in Canada where people are pre-disposed to hate Bettman. You certainly get people identifying how illogical the players are...but you also get a lot of anti-Bettman ranting. This is especially true in Toronto, where getting people to be overly sympathetic about small market teams is a tough sell. So, that's why you might get people who are more sympathetic to the players here than elsewhere. This is just encouraged by members of the press who think the solution to every one of the NHL's financial woes is to put a team in Markham

Even so, there isn't very much sympathy to either side...people are mainly pissed off at the PR stunts and stupidity by both sides.

 

[bp13]

I dont think the players knew what they were getting themselves into when they hired Donald Fehr. Is he even fighting for the players or is he just fighting for his own legacy? It sounds like he's telling the players what they should want instead of listening to what they actually want, which is to play hockey.

See this is EXACTLY the kind of post that completely baffles me. I just don't know where people get off accusing other professionals, who continue to get hired by high-profile clients, of acting only in their own best interests.

To accuse Donald Fehr of being in it for only his legacy is to say that:

a) he is willing to completely disregard the oath of his profession
b) he is willing to potentially sabotage all of his future earnings as a professional by placing his own goals over those of his clients and running the risk of losing future business as a result
c) because he apparently "earned" this reputation in the past, groups like the NHLPA continue to hire him because they either don't care about their own best interests or are utterly incapable of hiring a competent leader
d) he is both completely incompetent and a professional fraud

Personally I'm not comfortable hurling those kind of accusations at another human being.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Pretty much the opposite of what I'm seeing. Most people against them think the players make too much money. Look at the thread below.

I don't understand... Of course people against the PA will think the players make too much money.

For me it isn't that the players are overpaid, it's that they get too much of what is available. Just like those students in Quebec who want everybody to pay for their schooling: they aren't in the wrong to think that a common goal implies a shared burden, but they are very wrong in fightning shifting ground that goes against their sentiment of entitlement.