Blake Wheeler

[Gwyddbwyll]

There's quite a noticable difference between 1996-2000 and 2001-2004 already though. The picks of Kelman/Safronov have little relevance to Wheeler today.

 

[Vipers]

In 2001, Gretzky himself came up to draft Sjostrom, and he surprised a lot of people with this choice, because there was players as Hamhuis, Hemsky and Kobasew who came right after Sjostrom. If I remember he was quote as 9th European player in the draft.

Spiller was their 1st choice in the 2nd round, a comparison for Spiller would be
M. Fistric in 2004. And with the acquisitions of Morris, O'Donnell and probably Ballard, Spiller will not see a lot of ice time in Phoenix. Worse, he's going down in the Phoenix' talent in the rises cause those new players.
Some players drafted around Spiller were: D. Roy, Shiskanov, Tjutin, Slovak,
Lynch and Pilar.

Podlesak has too many downside to play more than a role player in the NHL.


In 2002, Koreis was drafted 19th. Scouts report are saying:
In 2003: struggle to adjust in top Czech league, then excelled against teen at WJC.
In 2004:Still getting adjust to N.A. game. Needs to improve skating and learn to shot more often. Has to develop a scoring touch. Enough talent to become a serviceable NHLer.
Paille, Babchuk, Steen, Ward Johansson and Toivonen.were able w/better upside than serviceable player.


Leneveu: I replied in thread #12 that he was w/Esche the best players drafted by Phoenix.

The problem was in the same thread #12 when I said Phoenix is drafting bad. Why?

When you draft in the first round, you try to take a player who will come a star or fill with an extremely important player, for your future, a need.

Wheeler: Is a very long term project. Phoenix saw something special in him.
Personnally, I see something special too in Montoya and Schwarz, in Smid, Meszaros and Thelen, in Olesz, Tukonen, Picard, Stafford, Radulov and Kaspar.




From where they drafted him, people in this thread said:

Buffaloed:He's a high risk, high reward pick.

DevilFisch:But seriously, he's still in high school. While he's got size and hockey sense, whether he has the ability to take it to the next level remains to be seen.

DownFromNJhoneix obviously saw something in him, and probably thought that if they traded down he would be taken.

FreakyHabsFan:I'm sure he wouldn't have been a top ten pick. There was many better player then him at the draft...

FlyersProspects2:Guess we'll find out in 5 years. Coyotes probably took him so they didn't have to pay him for a longer time than a prospect that was rated higher and closer to being NHL ready.

etc, etc...

A lot of people, included me were surprised and still are with that pick.
Only time will tell us, but for myself I'm not sold to that. As I told in the thread # 7,
with comparisons between 2 players from different teams of that league(USHSW)
I think that Wheeler has been draft, really, too early.

My word couldn't be a warrant but a lot of small things as explained make me think
in that way, more important the players sub-mentioned, like Tukonen, Thelen and Co.

Nice day everyone.

 

[littleHossa]

When you draft in the first round, you try to take a player who will come a star or fill with an extremely important player, for your future, a need.

There you go, Wheeler can become the best forward in the draft after AO and EM, much better than drafting maybe Tukonen or Olesz who either have smaller upside or have bigger problems and do not have that FP potential. The other forwards don't come close, Wheeler was as good of a choice as there was.

 

[Vipers]

There you go, Wheeler can become the best forward in the draft after AO and EM, much better than drafting maybe Tukonen or Olesz who either have smaller upside or have bigger problems and do not have that FP potential. The other forwards don't come close, Wheeler was as good of a choice as there was.

You bring nothing to confirm your answer and I would like to understand why you've said that Tukonen and Olesz have smaller upside or have bigger problems and why they don't come close to Wheeler.


Explain yourself.
You pitch something W/out any explanations, Easy to reply. But your speaking with people who knows the hockey. You can be right, I can be wrong, but show me your
knowledge, give me a normal answer with points, who will give me an idea of your
opinion.

 

[Randall Graves*]

The reason of the subject was Wheeler at 5th position in the draft, will he turn out to be only another good player or a star?
So you confirm it: "they've drafted some good players."

If he's a good player Phoenix should be happy, how many times over the last 5 years have people thought "man this guy is going to be a star or atleast a good player" only for the player to turn to nothing?

Just because Wheeler wasn't high on alot of draftboards on HF doesn't make him a bad pick, Dave Draper is one of the most respect scouts in the NHL. Plus guys with power forward potential are very hard to come by, i'm not saying I would have taken Wheeler but it's a little early to dismiss it as a bad pick.

 

[Vipers]

If he's a good player Phoenix should be happy, how many times over the last 5 years have people thought "man this guy is going to be a star or atleast a good player" only for the player to turn to nothing?

Just because Wheeler wasn't high on alot of draftboards on HF doesn't make him a bad pick, Dave Draper is one of the most respect scouts in the NHL. Plus guys with power forward potential are very hard to come by, i'm not saying I would have taken Wheeler but it's a little early to dismiss it as a bad pick.

I never said that Wheeler is bad.
You're right, he could turn out to be an excellent pick. He has PF potential.
Remember yourself the day of the draft, weren't you surprised to heard Wheeler's name at 5th rank. Me, I was.
But, the point is that: at the moment they drafted there were still very good players. They took a chance like they did the yr. they drafted Sjostrom, but this one was 11th.
I repeat what BC's said the day after the draft:

Phoenix obviously saw something in Wheeler than a lot of scouting organisations didn't.

You gave me an idea: I will check on HF old list and Mock draft before the draft and prepare where Wheeler was rank. Thank's RallyKiller.

 

[wint]

Bear in mind in 2003 they had no 1st or 2nd round pick

I actually think this was the worst mistake of all by Phoenix management. For a rebuilding team to end up with no 1st OR 2nd round pick in one of the best and deepest drafts of all time is awful.

 

[Guest]

If most players are drafted when they are 18, you can't really judge a draft until 5 years after the fact. By that time, the players are 23 years old or older, and they will show a glimpse of having NHL potential or will be in the NHL at that point. There are a number (I would think) of players 23 years old and under who won't be in the league anymore in just a few seasons, yet they made the NHL but still turn out to be busts.

If we're talking the 1999 draft, then fine, but it's pure speculation at this point unless you've actually seen these players play a game more than a handful of times (5 or less).

And yes, the drafting pre-Gretzky era had been poor at best, but they have new scouts and management now so it's like comparing two different teams drafting, they were two different organizations between then and now. That'd be like talking about how great Edmonton's scouting must be since they had Gretzky, Kurri, Lowe, Coffey, Messier, Fuhr, etc. Two different groups, same team, different results.

 

[Guest]

I actually think this was the worst mistake of all by Phoenix management. For a rebuilding team to end up with no 1st OR 2nd round pick in one of the best and deepest drafts of all time is awful.

Dave Draper continues to go mad as the Coyotes currently don't have a 2nd or 3rd round pick for the 2005 Entry Draft as well. I can understand trading picks around a little, but they have consistently traded their higher picks (top 4 rounds) without replacing them near enough. The rebuilding process is going to be twice as long if they don't score with the picks they make, or luck out and sign a few diamonds in the rough undrafted. This is part of the reason they ended up signing Kiel McLeod no doubt, because it had been so long since they had hit on any significant amount of prospects. Hopefully McLeod shows more promise than he has, because so far he is making CBJ look smart.

 

[King'sPawn]

If he's a good player Phoenix should be happy, how many times over the last 5 years have people thought "man this guy is going to be a star or atleast a good player" only for the player to turn to nothing?

Just because Wheeler wasn't high on alot of draftboards on HF doesn't make him a bad pick, Dave Draper is one of the most respect scouts in the NHL. Plus guys with power forward potential are very hard to come by, i'm not saying I would have taken Wheeler but it's a little early to dismiss it as a bad pick.

I don't think anyone's saying Wheeler is a bad player. I think most are saying the Coyotes organization is managing assets badly.

With the #5 overall pick, and with several players ranked ahead of him by MOST scouting groups, you could have traded down five spots, at least, earned a couple more picks, AND be able to draft Wheeler. By getting a couple more draft picks, you increase your chances of landing a gem or two.

Here are a few people that would have most likely been taken before Wheeler, but were drafted after him.

Tukonen
Montoya
Schwarz
Olesz
Schremp
Meszaros
Thelen
Chipchura
Wolski
Radulov
Picard

The best quote I read on another site duing the draft, once Wheeler was picked, was, "Wow, it's like the Kings traded up a spot without trading any assets." Will Wheeler be a force? It's possible, and kudos for the Coyotes management for calling it. Could they have managed their assets better? It's possible, as the #5 spot was a ripe spot to get a couple players who hadn't been taken yet.

We'll find out the answer to the first question in a few years. We'll probably never have the answer to the second, as we don't know what other teams were offering for the #5, which kinda spoils this debate.

 

[mazmin]

Reasons why he's a solid pick.

- His interview with the team impressed.
- He has been a dominant hockey AND football player for a few years now. Obviously a stellar athlete.
- Being picked so high, he will likely drop football and focus on hockey only.
- He is young, very young, one of the youngest in the draft. He has a lot of time to develop.
- We aren't GM's...or scouts... he was rated as a 2nd rounder by some, obviously he had the potential to be picked top-10 by any team. Instead of trading down a few slots and maybe getting a 2nd or 3rd rounder in a "weak draft", they put confidence in a kid who will now take on the responsability of being the guy who everyone wants to be a bust. He won't stand for it...apparently it's in his character.

Sort of off topic... a good while back I heard that there was a minimal chance he'd play in the USHL this year, but recently I heard he agreed to play in the "U"... whats the deal??? I'd like to see him in the USHL opposed to high school for obvious reasons.

 

[Randall Graves*]

I never said that Wheeler is bad.
You're right, he could turn out to be an excellent pick. He has PF potential.
Remember yourself the day of the draft, weren't you surprised to heard Wheeler's name at 5th rank. Me, I was.
But, the point is that: at the moment they drafted there were still very good players. They took a chance like they did the yr. they drafted Sjostrom, but this one was 11th.
I repeat what BC's said the day after the draft:

Phoenix obviously saw something in Wheeler than a lot of scouting organisations didn't.

You gave me an idea: I will check on HF old list and Mock draft before the draft and prepare where Wheeler was rank. Thank's RallyKiller.

Sjostrom was a bad pick, just because Gretzky was a great player doesn't make him a good talent evaluator. Wheeler went higher than he should have but power forwards are rare they are taking a big risk because they passed up on guys like Olesz,Smid and Tukonen to take him. But the old saying is that the small guys have to prove they can play...the big guys have to prove they can't play. Also guys like him are likely to be NHL players, weather he's great or not remains to be seen. If he's a bust then you can be sure Gretzky and the Coyotes are going to be reminded.

 

[ndhockey21]

He is playin in the ushl this year for green bay.

 

[littleHossa]

You bring nothing to confirm your answer and I would like to understand why you've said that Tukonen and Olesz have smaller upside or have bigger problems and why they don't come close to Wheeler.


Explain yourself.
You pitch something W/out any explanations, Easy to reply. But your speaking with people who knows the hockey. You can be right, I can be wrong, but show me your
knowledge, give me a normal answer with points, who will give me an idea of your
opinion.

Yes, again, this is a hockey board with people who know hockey, and I didn't feel that it was needed to say that Tukonen is considered to be more of a 2nd liner while Olesz had a concussion already. These things are known by everyone here on HFBoards, and when compared to Wheeler who has good size, athletism and accomplishments already, he seems to have a superior upside than his draft mates.

 

[rt]

Sjostrom was a bad pick, just because Gretzky was a great player doesn't make him a good talent evaluator.

I've seen every single game Freddie Sjostrom has played in the NHL, and I can't understand how you could say that he was a bad pick. All I have seen from him is a fiesty defensively responsible young player with very good offensive potential, and great character. At the time he was drafted, it was said that he had the best speed in the entire draft. The Coyotes wanted him very badly and paid a big price to move up and get him. I think we'll need a couple of more years to decide whether Kobesew or Hemsky were "better" picks.

 

[rt]

And with the acquisitions of Morris, O'Donnell and probably Ballard, Spiller will not see a lot of ice time in Phoenix. Worse, he's going down in the Phoenix' talent in the rises cause those new players.

WTF do those two sentences mean, exactly?

 

[rt]

Yeah...but I mean who cares. The guy who did a mock draft by using second-hand reports on this board had him in the third round, THN had him at beginning of the second round, my Aunt had him lasting till round 4.

Where does this Dave Draper (one of the most respected and flat-out best talent evaulators in the league) guy get off telling his team this schmuck is worth a high first round pick?

/Sarcasm

Sorry, I just HAD to quote this post again. Its THAT good.

I remember reading something where Phoenix management was saying that in '04 they drafted 3 guys in their top 15 (I believe). Not bad.

If Draper and Co. were confident enough in Wheeler to actually come out and say that they would have drafted him over Malkin, Barker, and Ladd, then thats good enough for me. I'm willing to bet that they saw him play quite a bit more than anyone who has posted on this thread. They have probably seen and know more about every prospect, considering that it is how they make their living, and all.

It has been said that Wheeler was Milbury's "surprise" pick. Apparantly, Phoenix's management team wasn't they only one Blake Wheeler impressed the pants off of.

Before the '04 draft, every one was saying how wide open it was, and how anyone could go anywhere.

P.S.

The Rangers have said that they were either going to take Fistric or Stephenson with their first pick in the second round.

 

[Vipers]

Yes, again, this is a hockey board with people who know hockey, and I didn't feel that it was needed to say that Tukonen is considered to be more of a 2nd liner while Olesz had a concussion already. These things are known by everyone here on HFBoards, and when compared to Wheeler who has good size, athletism and accomplishments already, he seems to have a superior upside than his draft mates.

I'm spending hours to explain that players like Tukonen and Olesz could have done
a better choice in rank #5. So many people cannot be wrong at the same time together.
If you knew something taht Wheeler had, why you didn't stand up when we were almost unanimous on him:

So you were one of the rare ones to classify Wheeler so high, for my part I was extremely surprised to see him go so fast.
Nobody would guarantee that.
The upside is too far away.
The last HS who has been draft so high was Lawton.


Here's some of HF's Board drafters Example taht I'm not the only one to miss it with Wheeler.


ISS: Wheeler, out of top 15
Agathe: NHL draft- Wheeler 17th
NHL: North American # 17
THN: Not in the 60th first.
2004 Final Mock draft: Wheeler 24th ( Mock Tm. File)
HF Board #2-2004-Top 50-report card: Wheeler 50th.
BC's First day(Winners/Losers): Phoenix obviously saw something in Wheeler than a " lot of scouting organisations" didn't.
BC's Mock draft: Wheeler out of 30'th first, and go check his draft, he was simply an amazing one.
Steblick: Wheeler 29th- he had also an outstanding draft.
Jim Bob's: Wheeler 46th.
Mizral's: Wheeler 25th, saying that Wheeler is a project, because playing in HS level and compare him to Friesen.
The Expert-Top15: Wheeler out of the 22 names mentioned- that included CSS, THN, McKeen's, Redline and ISS.
X-Sharkies: My favorite one put Wheeler 30th.
Duff 88: Wheeler out of his top 15 for the Young Guns.
Hockey Scout:- 2004 Prospects: Wheeler 30th.


Where's the problem when I, and a lot more, who knows draft and hockey, put Wheeler lower?

 

[littleHossa]

Half of the post consists of listing where everyone had him ranked. That is important, because a lot of the people here would give some NHL scouts a run for their money, but some of it is based on hype and reputation as well. The steals of the 2004 draft aren't O'Neill, Sinden or any other player that fell too much, they would probably be virtual unknown players.

When in 20 years from now we look at the statistics from the 2004 class, we'll see some names that might be familiar to us then but right now aren't. Wheeler could be one of these guys, the fact that he went over his consensus draft range doesn't make him overrated, just like the fact that some fell a bit doesn't make them underrated. Wheeler has the advantage that he was a 2nd rounder already, everybody knew about his skill, had talked to him and he had some descent exposure.

But just like finding those steals in each draft, they consist in being the only team to know about the player's potential, to maybe even be the only team looking to draft that player. In the case of guys that fall past the 3rd, 4th round, you can take gambles and no one is going to criticize any of those picks, but in Wheeler's case, who WAS going to get picked somewhere in the 2nd round, if he was the team's steal of the draft, they had to pull the trigger as early as possible.

Phoenix might be wrong with their talent assesment, but Wheeler isn't the player that gets pitted against all his HockeyNews draft report buddies, every year there are some steals in the draft, where ever they are found. This year Wheeler was one of the rare surprise picks in the first round, can't we give him the benefit of the doubt that he might be that special diamond in the rough? What we can argue up to this point are his 2nd round worthy exposure, accomplishments and intangibles that wowed the scouting staff enough to pick him. Remember, you don't get a job based on your resume alone.

Besides that you only see him as a 2nd rounder, another fault that you found in him was his age and HS status. Lauri Tukonen is younger than Blake Wheeler, as far as Wheeler is from his potential, Tukonen is further away from it, and everyone thinks he'll do great.

Another point is to also be careful how far you're willing to go on this subject. You don't have a lot of posts under your belt, and a lot of them were acquired in a topic where 80% of what is said in the prospect forum turns out to we wrong. See Wheeler for more than what he is, that's what the draft is all about.

 

[Vipers]

Another point is to also be careful how far you're willing to go on this subject. You don't have a lot of posts under your belt, and a lot of them were acquired in a topic where 80% of what is said in the prospect forum turns out to we wrong. See Wheeler for more than what he is, that's what the draft is all about.


I make draft in keeper league since 1974, I'm a member of HF for a year more than you and i've work w/Nordiques as a Oc. scout.

Thank you.

 

[Vipers]

Another point is to also be careful how far you're willing to go on this subject. You don't have a lot of posts under your belt, and a lot of them were acquired in a topic where 80% of what is said in the prospect forum turns out to we wrong. See Wheeler for more than what he is, that's what the draft is all about.

I'll continue to say there were a lot of player available at 5th rank, better than Wheeler.
Have you ever play hockey for a long term? Have you seen players who start at 3-4-5-6 yrs. old and now at 17-18-19-20yrs. old. How athletic they are. Now, they play 12 months a year. In summertime, they play hockey and soccer, Hockey and Baseball, and this for all there life, thru now. There's no fat in there. Every young players who are draft have a good shape and good athletism, some a bit more than others, but not significantly, at 18. The diff. is the work ethic they apply to the life of every day. To me the most important is the skating, hockey sense and work ethic, following by physical attributes. Wheeler is your choice, not mine.

Remember,there were a consensus before the draft that Wheeler would be draft in the end of 1st round thru the end of second round, that's far away from position #5.


In another point for Little Hossa:
Anyway it's not a matter of how many subjects i did, but how many I read and the quality of the subjects I'm interested in.
Also, I spend the time I want on computer, I work and I have a family.
I never answer yes or no, or Tukonen or Wheeler, but I gave intelligent answers by respect for all of you. You missed it, now.

 

[Gwyddbwyll]

Hey Vipers,

Thanks for coming back with your thoughts. The Coyotes do attract a lot of popular criticism but very few actually try to back it up with reasoned debate.

Freddie Sjostrom was indeed a somewhat surprising pick (although nowhere on the scale of Wheeler's selection). If you believe it was a poor pick I can only assume you havent seen him recently.

Just because Hemsky and Kobasew made the NHL faster doesnt make them better. Remember also they are almost a year older than Sjostrom, who has equalled their starts with 7 goals in his 57 games. Additionally Sjostrom brings a ton of energy and two-way play.. he is set to mature into a very valuable all-round top six guy in the mould of Lehtinen which would make this an excellent pick.

It should also be pointed out your mode of evaluation and criticism (The Coyotes could have picked XYZ instead of W) applies to every single team without exception.

Spiller was their next pick. Roy, Shishkanov, Tjutin were available yes. (I wouldnt rate Pilar, Lynch and Slovak over Spiller). That doesnt make Spiller a bad pick. Incidentially Spiller was well thought of as a 1st rounder so by the importance you place on that... you should be praising the Coyotes for getting him in the 2nd surely?

Podlesak was actually a good prospect, it was reported on HF that NHL GM's considered him the outstanding prospect in Phoenix. That he went on to suffer two serious concussions doesnt make it a bad pick.

Koreis wasnt a particularly great pick, but it would be too early to call him a bad pick in a dreadful draft year. Sure there were guys who have turned out to be better but that is always the case for 95% of all draft picks. The later pick of LeNeveu at #45 was an outstanding selection.

When you draft in the first round, you try to take a player who will come a star or fill with an extremely important player, for your future, a need.

Even more so for Phoenix. They have many good young players throughout the system, but no bona-fide superstar in the making. As fans have been saying, there is no Spezza, no Ovechkin, Lehtonen, Bouwmeester, Nash kind of player. Its not really surprising considering the Coyotes never had a top 10 pick until this year.

2004 was not a special year and most of those guys you like are probably of similar calibre to 2002's first rounder. Therefore I think you'll agree it made sense for Phoenix to roll the dice and select a guy who had a chance of developing into a truly elite player in the NHL, rather than play safe (as they did before with the Koreis selection).

Also you can point out where Wheeler was ranked. Everyone was shocked no doubt about that. But what that doesnt show is just how meteoric Wheeler's rise was. Few had heard of him before Christmas and then he appeared the top 100, moved into the top 60 and was already entering the 1st round pre-draft listings before the draft.

 

[Vipers]

Stevex:
Also you can point out where Wheeler was ranked. Everyone was shocked no doubt about that. But what that doesnt show is just how meteoric Wheeler's rise was. Few had heard of him before Christmas and then he appeared the top 100, moved into the top 60 and was already entering the 1st round pre-draft listings before the draft.

Vipers:
Yeah, now it's hard to judge and next yr. too.
Only when he will start Univ. he's gone to give us a better idea of his talent. He has a ton of potential, but risk a 5th pick so fast, I find it a waste.
Phoenix with him is building on the long way, 4-5yrs. away to play in the NHL.
You had, as example, Olesz who is NHL ready and some scouts have said he's 1 of the 2-3 best players to go in the draft for Czech Rep. since Jagr. I can give more example but everything is turning to the same: I don't understand the philosophy of Coyotes' draft. They seems to always take risk than take the easier and safer way.
Future will tell.
Thank you Stevex.

 

[rt]

Vipers:
Yeah, now it's hard to judge and next yr. too.
Only when he will start Univ. he's gone to give us a better idea of his talent. He has a ton of potential, but risk a 5th pick so fast, I find it a waste.
Phoenix with him is building on the long way, 4-5yrs. away to play in the NHL.
You had, as example, Olesz who is NHL ready and some scouts have said he's 1 of the 2-3 best players to go in the draft for Czech Rep. since Jagr. I can give more example but everything is turning to the same: I don't understand the philosophy of Coyotes' draft. They seems to always take risk than take the easier and safer way.
Future will tell.
Thank you Stevex.

How many times have you seen Blake Wheeler play? How many times have you seen Rostislav Olesz play? How many times have you met the two of them? Were you at the combine? How many NHL games have you played? How many Nhl players have you been responsible for drafting? What makes you think that you know more than Dave Draper?

I was hoping for Olesz myself, but I'm going to have to trust the people who actually know.

 

[dunwoody_joe]

The issue with me is not that the 'Yotes wanted Wheeler, but that they took him so early. In fact, they could have easily traded down a few spots and still nabbed Wheeler plus whatever they got in trade. There were a number of teams trying to move up on draft day so the options were likely plentiful.

If Gretz wanted Wheeler--then fair enough, it's his call. But why not leverage the pick for more assets. They could have gotten at least a 3rd rounder to move down 3-4 picks (especially with both goalies, Tukonen, Olesz and Thelen still on the board) and still have Wheeler.