Blake Wheeler

[rt]

The issue with me is not that the 'Yotes wanted Wheeler, but that they took him so early. In fact, they could have easily traded down a few spots and still nabbed Wheeler plus whatever they got in trade. There were a number of teams trying to move up on draft day so the options were likely plentiful.

If Gretz wanted Wheeler--then fair enough, it's his call. But why not leverage the pick for more assets. They could have gotten at least a 3rd rounder to move down 3-4 picks (especially with both goalies, Tukonen, Olesz and Thelen still on the board) and still have Wheeler.

What they have stated: The only player in the entire draft they would have taken before Blake Wheeler was Ovechkin.

My theory: It was rumored that Milbury also wanted Wheeler very much. What if they traded down a few spots only to have Milbury trade up a few spots? If they lost Wheeler they would never forgive themselves. To them an extra 3rd rounder wasn't worth the risk.

 

[dunwoody_joe]

What they have stated: The only player in the entire draft they would have taken before Blake Wheeler was Ovechkin.

My theory: It was rumored that Milbury also wanted Wheeler very much. What if they traded down a few spots only to have Milbury trade up a few spots? If they lost Wheeler they would never forgive themselves. To them an extra 3rd rounder wasn't worth the risk.

Well, if that is true then they sure got their guy. It seems a stiff price to pay but that is the cost of conviction.

I agree that the 3rd rounder is not worth the risk if they are so high on Wheeler. It will be very interesting to see how the kid turns out. High risk/high return!

 

[hbk]

As one Coyote fan I am happy that the Coyotes drafted according to their scouting lists and not that compiled by so called experts who mainly form opinions based upon the two or three commercially available lists.

Don't get me wrong. I was leading the charge on poor asset management on draft day but several pieces of information have come forward since that day.

Phoenix loved this kid. They scouted him more heavily than any other team in the NHL. They even met with him and his parents at their house prior to draft day. Someone on the Phoenix Board has it right when it comes to their avatar. It's a picture of Dave Draper and Vaughn Karpan with the caption "reputations at stake" or something to that effect. That nails everything. These guys are risking their very repuations by selecting this kid. They wouldn't do that if they weren't sure. Is risking getting the guy they had ranked third on their list (both Ovechkin and Malkin were rated higher) for a third round pick worth having to settle for somebody 3 - 4 slots further on your list? When the difference is in their mind selecting an impact player and selecting a second or third line player than forgoing that extra pick isn't exactly going to make or break your team. It would seriously harm relationships with your scouts if you make the deal only to have your guy scooped on you just before you go to call out his name. That happened to Phoenix back in 1999 and the infamous Tverdovsky deal. Also keep in mind, Phoenix doesn't know how many teams have seen this kid and to what extent. If they have seen him then they certainly have to make decisions under the assumption that they have seen what they have seen in this kid. The rise of Wheeler in many draft publications would indicate that their was somewhat of a buzz about this kid so they would be nieve to beleive that he was going to last as far as their second round pick and could very likely be a first round selection by another team. I have managed to talk to someone who has a University hockey background who has seen Wheeler play more than once and he spoke very highly about him. His comparison was "Vanek with better skating" which to me indicates the type of potential that Wheeler posesses and why Phoenix didn't want to risk losing him.

 

[King'sPawn]

The issue with me is not that the 'Yotes wanted Wheeler, but that they took him so early. In fact, they could have easily traded down a few spots and still nabbed Wheeler plus whatever they got in trade. There were a number of teams trying to move up on draft day so the options were likely plentiful.

If Gretz wanted Wheeler--then fair enough, it's his call. But why not leverage the pick for more assets. They could have gotten at least a 3rd rounder to move down 3-4 picks (especially with both goalies, Tukonen, Olesz and Thelen still on the board) and still have Wheeler.

Exactly. It's like when Florida traded their #1 pick in 2003 for the #3 and Samuelsson with Pittsburgh. Samuelsson may not be an impact player, but he can always be traded away for another pick or be part of a package for something else. The #5 pick for Phoenix could have landed a lot.

 

[Crossbar]

The issue with me is not that the 'Yotes wanted Wheeler, but that they took him so early. In fact, they could have easily traded down a few spots and still nabbed Wheeler plus whatever they got in trade. There were a number of teams trying to move up on draft day so the options were likely plentiful.

If Gretz wanted Wheeler--then fair enough, it's his call. But why not leverage the pick for more assets. They could have gotten at least a 3rd rounder to move down 3-4 picks (especially with both goalies, Tukonen, Olesz and Thelen still on the board) and still have Wheeler.

Plus the lower the draft pick is, the less amount of money the player will receive in (performance) bonuses when their contract is made out.

 

[Vipers]

How many times have you seen Blake Wheeler play? How many times have you seen Rostislav Olesz play? How many times have you met the two of them? Were you at the combine? How many NHL games have you played? How many Nhl players have you been responsible for drafting? What makes you think that you know more than Dave Draper?

I was hoping for Olesz myself, but I'm going to have to trust the people who actually know.

How many times have you, yourself seen them play?
All the people and scouts services give you these informations, but you need to subscribe too.
You argument is too easy and too many people use it.

 

[Vipers]

The issue with me is not that the 'Yotes wanted Wheeler, but that they took him so early. In fact, they could have easily traded down a few spots and still nabbed Wheeler plus whatever they got in trade. There were a number of teams trying to move up on draft day so the options were likely plentiful.

If Gretz wanted Wheeler--then fair enough, it's his call. But why not leverage the pick for more assets. They could have gotten at least a 3rd rounder to move down 3-4 picks (especially with both goalies, Tukonen, Olesz and Thelen still on the board) and still have Wheeler.

This is the point i'm trying to show, why so early, they could have taken something else w/Wheeler, if they really wanted him.
Very good quote and a simply one.

 

[rt]

How many times have you, yourself seen them play?
All the people and scouts services give you these informations, but you need to subscribe too.
You argument is too easy and too many people use it.

I am not the one claiming to know more than Dave Draper, now am I ?

This is the point i'm trying to show, why so early, they could have taken something else w/Wheeler, if they really wanted him.
Very good quote and a simply one.

Apparantly you didn't read my response. Here it is again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rt
What they have stated: The only player in the entire draft they would have taken before Blake Wheeler was Ovechkin.

My theory: It was rumored that Milbury also wanted Wheeler very much. What if they traded down a few spots only to have Milbury trade up a few spots? If they lost Wheeler they would never forgive themselves. To them an extra 3rd rounder wasn't worth the risk.

 

[Vipers]

How many times have you seen Blake Wheeler play? How many times have you seen Rostislav Olesz play? How many times have you met the two of them? Were you at the combine? How many NHL games have you played? How many Nhl players have you been responsible for drafting? What makes you think that you know more than Dave Draper?

I was hoping for Olesz myself, but I'm going to have to trust the people who actually know.

So Draper couln't made mistakes...

Let's visit: Biggest busts of the past? ( 1 2 3 )
I didn't drafted them.

 

[rt]

So Draper couln't made mistakes...

Where did I ever post that? I'm just giving you sh*t for thinking that you know more about a young player's potential than one of the best amatur scouts in hockey, who has actually met the kid and his family and seen him play in many many games. Dave Draper's ability to evaluate young hockey talent is what he has been feeding his family with for years, but who am I kidding, you read the Readline report and subscribe to Mckeens, so you must be an expert.

Let's visit: Biggest busts of the past? ( 1 2 3 )
I didn't drafted them.

Since Draper has been with Phoenix, his early picks have been Sjostrom (great rookie season last year) and LeNevue (AHL all-star goalie as a rookie last year) in '01, Koreis (memorial cup champ) and Eager (part of Comrie trade) in '02, Redenbach (3rd round pick, led the WHL in scoring) in '03, and Blake Wheeler in '04. Where exactly are the busts? Its too early to tell, but I'm fairly confident.

Prior to Phoenix, he was a scout for the Colorado/Quebec franchise. He was chief scout from 95 to 2000. During which time he drafted guys like Hejduk, Drury, Liles, Aebischer, Hahl and Vrbata in the mid rounds. In the earlier rounds he chose guys like, Tanguay, Regehr, Skoula, Nederost, Radivojevic, Nieminen, Abid, Suave, Moore, Aulin and Sauer. There were also mistakes, but the draft is, as someone said earlier, a "crapshoot". To me, Draper has a damn good track record.

I don't know anything about hockey prospects. I live in Arizona. We don't get many blue chippers coming up around here. What I do know something about is common sense. If a man like Dave Draper is willing to stake his livelyhood on a gamble like Blake Wheeler, there is probably a damn good amount of talent and upside in the kid.

 

[kenabnrmal]

I can't believe this is still a topic. People are so freaked out that the Yotes went off the board for a pick, instead of "acquiring more assets" like a third rounder to move down a couple of spots? A THIRD ROUNDER??? God, they got their man. Your team didn't make the pick, the Yotes did. Maybe they'll be right, or maybe wrong, but if they're wrong, they'll be in the majority.

I'm far less concerned with what the prospect-geeks think about the deal, than I am with what Draper thinks of the guy and the amount of faith they have in him.

 

[dunwoody_joe]

I can't believe this is still a topic. People are so freaked out that the Yotes went off the board for a pick, instead of "acquiring more assets" like a third rounder to move down a couple of spots? A THIRD ROUNDER??? God, they got their man. Your team didn't make the pick, the Yotes did. Maybe they'll be right, or maybe wrong, but if they're wrong, they'll be in the majority.

I'm far less concerned with what the prospect-geeks think about the deal, than I am with what Draper thinks of the guy and the amount of faith they have in him.

You can't believe this is still a topic? If you don't like it--move along, son!

There is a lockout and no hockey in sight. All we have right now is stuff like this.

This is a message board for entertainment still, right? :lol

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

I can't believe this is still a topic. People are so freaked out that the Yotes went off the board for a pick, instead of "acquiring more assets" like a third rounder to move down a couple of spots? A THIRD ROUNDER??? God, they got their man. Your team didn't make the pick, the Yotes did. Maybe they'll be right, or maybe wrong, but if they're wrong, they'll be in the majority.

I'm far less concerned with what the prospect-geeks think about the deal, than I am with what Draper thinks of the guy and the amount of faith they have in him.

If I had a guy rated as the 2nd best prospect in the entire draft, I sure wouldn't risk losing him for a crap pick. That can prove royally dumb.

However, is this guy the 2nd best prospect of 2004?

There are really two questions. One is about the strategic decision to stay put or trade down. The other is about the talent of the prospect and what he is really like.

 

[Vipers]

Where did I ever post that? I'm just giving you sh*t for thinking that you know more about a young player's potential than one of the best amatur scouts in hockey.


You're nobody to give "****" on a public thread. Only bad education or short in arguments. Too many people like you in HF Board. There other words to show your disagreement.
Simply , Vipers...

 

[Vipers]

Yeah...but I mean who cares. The guy who did a mock draft by using second-hand reports on this board had him in the third round, THN had him at beginning of the second round, my Aunt had him lasting till round 4.

Where does this Dave Draper (one of the most respected and flat-out best talent evaulators in the league) guy get off telling his team this schmuck is worth a high first round pick?

/Sarcasm

NHL had him 17th in N.A.
ISS had him out of the first 15th.
THN had him out of 60th first.

And these 3 has followed him and saw him played. They're a panel of pro scouts.

Just to tell you that sometimes you have surprising picks.

 

[Vipers]

Where did I ever post that? I'm just giving you sh*t for thinking that you know more about a young player's potential than one of the best amatur scouts in hockey, who has actually met the kid and his family and seen him play in many many games. Dave Draper's ability to evaluate young hockey talent is what he has been feeding his family with for years, but who am I kidding, you read the Readline report and subscribe to Mckeens, so you must be an expert.


Since Draper has been with Phoenix, his early picks have been Sjostrom (great rookie season last year) and LeNevue (AHL all-star goalie as a rookie last year) in '01, Koreis (memorial cup champ) and Eager (part of Comrie trade) in '02, Redenbach (3rd round pick, led the WHL in scoring) in '03, and Blake Wheeler in '04. Where exactly are the busts? Its too early to tell, but I'm fairly confident.


I don't know anything about hockey prospects. I live in Arizona. We don't get many blue chippers coming up around here. What I do know something about is common sense. If a man like Dave Draper is willing to stake his livelyhood on a gamble like Blake Wheeler, there is probably a damn good amount of talent and upside in the kid.

Your losing your cool and you admit that you don't know anything about hockey prospects. So listen, read and learn.
Here the question is not: " How good or bad is Draper?"
Go back to the thread #1 and read it. The question is:

How good will this kid be in the NHL?

There's a lot quote to check : By me...
# 7: comparision of 2 players of 2 diff. teams in the same USHSW.
#52: comparison of drafts 2001-2002. I don't judge 3-4th rounds, but 1st and 2nd
only, who are the ones you must take with more judgment and where you
can't make "the mistake". In 3rd and 4th round, generally you'll find smaller players w/very gd skills, a lot of Europeans and HS w/gd potentials and Jrs. who have had a gd season but not enough to go higher, generally players who will take a bit more time to develop, because there 1 or 2 assets missing. ( ex: height, weight, skates or defense, etc, etc...)

New Jersey took a guess w/ a 1st round pick 3-4 yrs ago w/ Foster, but he was pick #27 or 28, not #5.

Sjostrom didn't impressed me by his off., I admit his def. is OK. (quote #48-52-62- 72-)
Leneveu their goalie of Future. Nobody discussed it. (quote #12-52-)
Eager: Limit off. skills, but a tough guy who will have his place in NHL and in the corners. ( ouch..) He' s a Flyers, now.

Koreis: A bad pick. ( quote # 52-72-)
Redenbach: A good player made on smaller side. (A 3rd round)
Wheeler: Time will tell. To me, and this is my personal opinion only:
They took him too early and now to justify their pick, they say Wheeler
will be a special player and they do more by saying that only one player
in the draft was better than him ( Ovechkin) and he was already taken.
I will live with that, because I'm only a HF fan, not a scout and more a
chief scout. Wheeler, for my opinion and I hope it, will turn a good NHL
player, and all the Phoenix' fans, also hope it, but I don't see him do
more. My feeling after 31 years of draft prepared.


My conclusion: 2001: Sjostrom, a surprised pick who will turn a good def. player w/limited off. skills and w/smaller upside than it was in 2001. 3rd line w/some appearance in the 2nd.to replace inj. player.
2002: Koreis, a pick who turned out to be worse than it was supposed to. Very small upside compared to the Draftday. Serviceable player.( #48)
2003: No 1st round pick.
2004: High risk, High reward prospect.( quote 47-77-88) Wich one
will show up? If it's true That Wheeler is a Vanek w/more
skates (quote #78) Phoenix is in limousine. If he's another
Lawton so...they will pay the price.

Not to argue w/you HBK, but did Wheeler took value after he was drafted? I don't
understand everything in this comment:
" Don't get me wrong. I was leading the charge on poor asset management on draft day but several pieces of information have come forward since that day."( quote 78)

So, it's over on the Wheeler's subject for me, I'll read more quote, but I did enough replied in that theme. I have to respect my few quantity of posts.
Hasta luego, hockey friends...

 

[rt]

NHL had him 17th in N.A.
ISS had him out of the first 15th.
THN had him out of 60th first.

And these 3 has followed him and saw him played. They're a panel of pro scouts.

Just to tell you that sometimes you have surprising picks.

Phoenix had him ranked 2nd.

 

[littleHossa]

Vipers you're still here? Something that I noticed about your posts and the way you look at things, is that you look at general organizations, sometimes NHL scouts oriented. In a keeper league, when you draft a player it's not just based on the player and his talent, it's also his organization. I think that most keepers know by now not to touch Calgary or Rangers prospects when drafting to name a few teams, no matter how good they are etc. but you're taking the same approach when it comes to Blake Wheeler.

What you mainly look at is Phoenix's drafting history, and in keeper terms, their "failures". That players like Sjostrom or Spiller don't put up a lot of points. Let me tell you how hard it is to draft someone with Spiller's style of play, every year you have around 10 stay at homers drafted in the first two rounds, and almost all of them bust, for whatever reason. Look at Valabik, Fristic, Rogers, Salomonsson etc, we'll see how many accomplish anything in 5 years from now. Phoenix has had a pretty good record bringing along Spiller and Vaananen, sometimes you draft a player like Phaneuf, but in term of stay at homers, they are as rare of talents as those "once a decade" forwards.

And this bring me to my second point, you cannot judge a player until 5 years have passed. Sjostrom is developing along very nicely, he played for Sweden at the World Championships already, and he will probably develop into the top 6 forward they had in mind. What has Kobasew done with all the games he played? Hemsky has been given first line ice-time.

A lot of your opinions on Wheeler aren't your own opinions on him, they are merely the factors you take in consideration when drafting keeper league players, and if it was up to you with Phoenix's bad record, you'd keep away from him. Phoenix probably had the worse minor league system in the league, they developed players horribly. but you have to realize that Gretzky's new era for the Yotes is finally shaping up. What color will the Coyotes play in next season? They are now red and white, they have a new arena and new minor league team in Utah that is 100% theirs. What is missing is the coaches granted, but you can't have this keeper mentality for 90 posts on Wheeler, the organization is moving along in the right path. By the time you will start thinking that Phoenix can be coined as one of those "good drafting" organizations, it will be 2010.

 

[rt]

Your losing your cool and you admit that you don't know anything about hockey prospects. So listen, read and learn.
Here the question is not: " How good or bad is Draper?"
Go back to the thread #1 and read it. The question is:


How good will this kid be in the NHL?

I wasn't trying to turn it into a Draper thread. I tried to make the point that Phoenix management knows more about Blake Wheeler than you or me and there is no way you can call it a "bad pick" (as you already have) until AT LEAST 3-4 years from now. Then you started talking some nonsense about Draper's busts 1,2,3... or some garbage like that, so I defended his track record.

There's a lot quote to check : By me...
# 7: comparision of 2 players of 2 diff. teams in the same USHSW.

You did not compare two players in the same league. You compared the stats of two players you had never seen before. What do stats in High School mean? NOTHING.

Sjostrom didn't impressed me by his off., I admit his def. is OK.

I see him as being easily as good as Marco Sturm only grittier and with better speed.

Koreis: A bad pick.

Are you sure you ant to say that before he's even out of Juniors?

Wheeler: Time will tell. To me, and this is my personal opinion only:
They took him too early and now to justify their pick, they say Wheeler
will be a special player and they do more by saying that only one player
in the draft was better than him ( Ovechkin) and he was already taken.

What does that mean, exactly? They took him too early, and now they feel the need to justify themselves? To who? What, did they accidentally call his name? Did they pick his name out of a hat? This is a rediculous theory! :lol

Time will tell. To me, and this is my personal opinion only: Management got the guy they wanted. They are happy with their pick. They are confident in their staff. They are confident in Blake Wheeler. They would never feel any reason to justify it to anyone.

 

[Gwyddbwyll]

Sjostrom didn't impressed me by his off., I admit his def. is OK. (quote #48-52-62- 72-)

Koreis: A bad pick. ( quote # 52-72-)

Sjostrom's offense has been just as good as Hemsky and Kobasew in their first 50 games. Third line player? He's already played on the top line when Nagy went down.

If Koreis makes the NHL he will have been a good pick in an absolutely dreadful year.

 

[PSUhockey34]

Wheeler: Time will tell. To me, and this is my personal opinion only:
They took him too early and now to justify their pick, they say Wheeler
will be a special player and they do more by saying that only one player
in the draft was better than him ( Ovechkin) and he was already taken.
I will live with that, because I'm only a HF fan, not a scout and more a
chief scout. Wheeler, for my opinion and I hope it, will turn a good NHL
player, and all the Phoenix' fans, also hope it, but I don't see him do
more. My feeling after 31 years of draft prepared.

They took him to early and now they need to justify the pick? please, its not like the had all year to perpare for the draft and the fact that no one thought Wheeler deserved to go that high in the draft so I dont see how they made the pick out of panic in wheeler not lasting to 5th overall

 

[hbk]

Not to argue w/you HBK, but did Wheeler took value after he was drafted? I don't
understand everything in this comment:
" Don't get me wrong. I was leading the charge on poor asset management on draft day but several pieces of information have come forward since that day."( quote 78)

goes back to my other comments about getting informed about Wheeler and his potential by asking people who have seen him play. again, those people that I spoke to indicated that they thought Wheeler was "Vanek, with better skating". Throw in the comments that came forward from the Phoenix camp after the selection regarding where they had him on the list, the surge that Wheeler had in the draft rankings as the season progressed, and the comments regarding the overall quality of the draft itself (a weak draft where like in 2002, the long shots prevail).

My initial reaction is based upon an uninformed opinion. Phoenix was widely beleived to be selecting Montoya at #5 which was a pick I could accept but given the presence of LeNeveu wasn't exactly doing summersaults over. Like most posters, I hadn't done much reading on guys projected to go later in the draft so I was as surprised as anybody.

 

[rt]

I noticed that Blake has a teammate in Green Bay named Garrett Suter, a defensemen from Madison Wisconson. I'm assuming he's either Ryan Suter's little brother, or his cousin. Does anyone know anything about him?