Player Discussion: Blake Wheeler on Situation in Minnesota - Read Mod note in OP

[Poxsonus]

Sounds like your up to some virtue signalling to me. I can see why it wouldn't appeal to someone who wants to keep their head buried in the sand. World's changing - time to get on the train or sit in the station grumbling about the good old days which weren't so good for a lot of people. Is that woke enough for you? By the way, did I use the slogans right?

This, by Macklemore, is a good start for those who want to set out on the road to introspection and to equality.

 

[Eyeseeing]

Sounds like your up to some virtue signalling to me. I can see why it wouldn't appeal to someone who wants to keep their head buried in the sand. World's changing - time to get on the train or sit in the station grumbling about the good old days which weren't so good for a lot of people. Is that woke enough for you? By the way, did I use the slogans right?

What train is that?
Nobody has their head buried in the sand other than you until very recently by the looks of it.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

Sounds like your up to some virtue signalling to me. I can see why it wouldn't appeal to someone who wants to keep their head buried in the sand. World's changing - time to get on the train or sit in the station grumbling about the good old days which weren't so good for a lot of people. Is that woke enough for you? By the way, did I use the slogans right?

You have to say OK Boomer to be properly dismissive of my POV. Like, get with the program.

 

[ERYX]

I would say that the abuse of power by the state in any form is of great concern to me - and should be to us all. If we just throw our hands up and say 'well, what can you do?' then nothing will ever change...and this stuff needs to change.

Police violence is on the rise. This is from a conservative think tank in the US (so not some bleeding heart hippies):

I agree that abuse of power by the state should be of great concern to everyone and that there absolutely are major reforms needed to our policing model. Not only the increase in police violence, but the overall intrusion into peoples' lives, and other heavy-handed tactics that are not necessarily violent.

In my view, a huge piece of this has long been the complete lack of accountability police have been held to for several years. The big problem now is that over the course of a few weeks we've gone from "Police can do no wrong" all the way over to "police can do no right".

I've found myself, a person who's traditionally been considered "anti police" or at least highly skeptical, now defending them, because we've gone too far the other way. We've gone from an error of defect to an error of excess. Abolishing police outright or making it such that they cannot do their jobs is going to have even worse consequences than not holding them to account has. We are already seeing this in cities where police are in the process of being abolished, have been ordered to stand down, or are scared to do their jobs because if they defend themselves they lose their jobs and go to jail:

New York City disbanded their plains clothes detectives units in response to calls to "defund the police", shootings have gone up by 358% compared to the same time period in 2019: Weekly NYC Shootings Soar 358% Over Last Year, Data Shows

In Minneapolis -- whose City Council unanimously voted to abolish the police, while spending $4500 daily for private security for themselves -- At least 113 people have been shot since May 25 which is unprecedented for that city (which is about 400,000 people): https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...YkvEGyKQZLmxurY#click=https://t.co/sdFLVyafiq

Shootings are also up in Atlanta in the wake of the "Blue Flu" over officers being fired: Shootings up, traffic stops and drug arrests down during period of 'blue flu'

And this is just the beginning. Abolishing the police or making them too terrified and meek to do their job properly is not a solution. We need real solutions by way of legitimate police reform and tackling the root causes. Now, I know that people say that's where the funds taken away from police will go, but I don't think you can start defunding police until after the crime rates are reduced. That said I recognize that police forces have become bloated and have been growing for years despite reduction in crime. This is a problem I've fought against in my personal life for years, but, again, we need a reasonable and measured approach not what's going on right now.

 

[Exiled Jets Fan]

You have to say OK Boomer to be properly dismissive of my POV. Like, get with the program.

Problem is I am a boomer as well. Is that "ok fellow boomer"?

 

[Exiled Jets Fan]

I agree that abuse of power by the state should be of great concern to everyone and that there absolutely are major reforms needed to our policing model. Not only the increase in police violence, but the overall intrusion into peoples' lives, and other heavy-handed tactics that are not necessarily violent.

In my view, a huge piece of this has long been the complete lack of accountability police have been held to for several years. The big problem now is that over the course of a few weeks we've gone from "Police can do no wrong" all the way over to "police can do no right".

I've found myself, a person who's traditionally been considered "anti police" or at least highly skeptical, now defending them, because we've gone too far the other way. We've gone from an error of defect to an error of excess. Abolishing police outright or making it such that they cannot do their jobs is going to have even worse consequences than not holding them to account has. We are already seeing this in cities where police are in the process of being abolished, have been ordered to stand down, or are scared to do their jobs because if they defend themselves they lose their jobs and go to jail:

New York City disbanded their plains clothes detectives units in response to calls to "defund the police", shootings have gone up by 358% compared to the same time period in 2019: Weekly NYC Shootings Soar 358% Over Last Year, Data Shows

In Minneapolis -- whose City Council unanimously voted to abolish the police, while spending $4500 daily for private security for themselves -- At least 113 people have been shot since May 25 which is unprecedented for that city (which is about 400,000 people): https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...YkvEGyKQZLmxurY#click=https://t.co/sdFLVyafiq

Shootings are also up in Atlanta in the wake of the "Blue Flu" over officers being fired: Shootings up, traffic stops and drug arrests down during period of 'blue flu'

And this is just the beginning. Abolishing the police or making them too terrified and meek to do their job properly is not a solution. We need real solutions by way of legitimate police reform and tackling the root causes. Now, I know that people say that's where the funds taken away from police will go, but I don't think you can start defunding police until after the crime rates are reduced. That said I recognize that police forces have become bloated and have been growing for years despite reduction in crime. This is a problem I've fought against in my personal life for years, but, again, we need a reasonable and measured approach not what's going on right now.

The key question is whether the job we have asked police to do is the right way of reducing crime and harm to the community. More of the same isn't going to cut it and will never reduce crime or its impact on a community. It's simply a way to attempt to control people in any given community, not protect them. I agree that sloganeering isn't helpful nor is demonizing individuals who are also trapped in that system. That leads to wild swings back and forth and an extensive game of whack a mole. The vast majority of jobs we ask police to do would be better done by other professionals and through helping people, not through intimidation and not by people with no training in the area. We will need highly trained people, with similar levels of accountability built in, for situations where harm to others is imminent, but that is actually extremely rare. Everything else is forcing people to fall into line.

 

[ERYX]

@Exiled Jets Fan I actually agree with a fair bit of what you wrote, I don't think we're that far apart and it's good to have a reasonable discussion about this stuff without, as you say, the sloganeering or demonizing.

The key question is whether the job we have asked police to do is the right way of reducing crime and harm to the community. More of the same isn't going to cut it and will never reduce crime or its impact on a community. It's simply a way to attempt to control people in any given community, not protect them.

I think it's pretty complicated. I think that SOME of what we ask police to do is necessary. Police will always be a reactionary force though, they can't protect you because they can't be everywhere all the time ... or at least we wouldn't want to live in a society where there's that much police and surveillance because then its basically living in a big prison.

That said, you do need a certain level of control. I, sadly, do not accept the concept that people are just going to be nice to each other in an anarchy situation. There is a dark side to human nature, and we need police and law courts to deal with that, always have. But I think the key problem is what you pointed out later ...

The vast majority of jobs we ask police to do would be better done by other professionals and through helping people, not through intimidation and not by people with no training in the area. We will need highly trained people, with similar levels of accountability built in, for situations where harm to others is imminent, but that is actually extremely rare. Everything else is forcing people to fall into line.

Not sure I necessarily agree that the VAST majority of what we ask police to do is not police work, but I definitely agree that there's a LOT that we ask police to do that others should be doing and it should be done in different ways.

And for the scenarios where we do need control and for situations of harm, I am a big fan of much smaller, local police forces. I think that the trend (in Canada at least, I haven't followed the US as closely) towards big, impersonal, amalgamated regional police forces has played a major role. In my work as a defence lawyer, I encounter lots of police and I see a huge difference between how the few small local police forces that still exist in Ontario differ from the large regional police forces. The small local forces actually know the people they police.

 

[Gm0ney]

I agree that abuse of power by the state should be of great concern to everyone and that there absolutely are major reforms needed to our policing model. Not only the increase in police violence, but the overall intrusion into peoples' lives, and other heavy-handed tactics that are not necessarily violent.

In my view, a huge piece of this has long been the complete lack of accountability police have been held to for several years. The big problem now is that over the course of a few weeks we've gone from "Police can do no wrong" all the way over to "police can do no right".

I've found myself, a person who's traditionally been considered "anti police" or at least highly skeptical, now defending them, because we've gone too far the other way. We've gone from an error of defect to an error of excess. Abolishing police outright or making it such that they cannot do their jobs is going to have even worse consequences than not holding them to account has. We are already seeing this in cities where police are in the process of being abolished, have been ordered to stand down, or are scared to do their jobs because if they defend themselves they lose their jobs and go to jail:

New York City disbanded their plains clothes detectives units in response to calls to "defund the police", shootings have gone up by 358% compared to the same time period in 2019: Weekly NYC Shootings Soar 358% Over Last Year, Data Shows

In Minneapolis -- whose City Council unanimously voted to abolish the police, while spending $4500 daily for private security for themselves -- At least 113 people have been shot since May 25 which is unprecedented for that city (which is about 400,000 people): https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...YkvEGyKQZLmxurY#click=https://t.co/sdFLVyafiq

Shootings are also up in Atlanta in the wake of the "Blue Flu" over officers being fired: Shootings up, traffic stops and drug arrests down during period of 'blue flu'

And this is just the beginning. Abolishing the police or making them too terrified and meek to do their job properly is not a solution. We need real solutions by way of legitimate police reform and tackling the root causes. Now, I know that people say that's where the funds taken away from police will go, but I don't think you can start defunding police until after the crime rates are reduced. That said I recognize that police forces have become bloated and have been growing for years despite reduction in crime. This is a problem I've fought against in my personal life for years, but, again, we need a reasonable and measured approach not what's going on right now.

I'm not calling for abolition of the police. I think calls to defund the police are probably counterproductive to real reform. The police will fight tooth and nail against any kind of reform anyway, though, so I can see why some people are taking the position that we just need to scrap the whole thing and start over...

I think I posted this long and detailed Twitter thread earlier in here:


It's worth a read. Some concrete action to take to reform policing. In the US, getting rid of qualified immunity would help a lot I think. Doucette mentions requiring police officers to carry malpractice insurance (so taxpayers aren't on the hook for damages, and bad cops' premiums will rise commensurate with their poor behavior).

Other good ideas: Raise the bar on the job qualifications - 4 year degree to become a police officer. Require de-escalation/more training on de-escalation (seems the opposite tactic is used a lot of the time). Get rid of "fishing expedition" traffic stops. Separate crime response from crime investigation. Outside special prosecutors for cases of police misconduct.

Anyway there's a vast chasm of options between the status quo and disbanding the police...

 

[KCjetsfan]

I'm not calling for abolition of the police. I think calls to defund the police are probably counterproductive to real reform. The police will fight tooth and nail against any kind of reform anyway, though, so I can see why some people are taking the position that we just need to scrap the whole thing and start over...

I think I posted this long and detailed Twitter thread earlier in here:


It's worth a read. Some concrete action to take to reform policing. In the US, getting rid of qualified immunity would help a lot I think. Doucette mentions requiring police officers to carry malpractice insurance (so taxpayers aren't on the hook for damages, and bad cops' premiums will rise commensurate with their poor behavior).

Other good ideas: Raise the bar on the job qualifications - 4 year degree to become a police officer. Require de-escalation/more training on de-escalation (seems the opposite tactic is used a lot of the time). Get rid of "fishing expedition" traffic stops. Separate crime response from crime investigation. Outside special prosecutors for cases of police misconduct.

Anyway there's a vast chasm of options between the status quo and disbanding the police...

get rid of civil asset forfeiture.

 

[Gm0ney]

get rid of civil asset forfeiture.

Yeah that's some real Banana Republic bs too...can't believe that's constitutional at all.

 

[ps241]

I agree that abuse of power by the state should be of great concern to everyone and that there absolutely are major reforms needed to our policing model. Not only the increase in police violence, but the overall intrusion into peoples' lives, and other heavy-handed tactics that are not necessarily violent.

In my view, a huge piece of this has long been the complete lack of accountability police have been held to for several years. The big problem now is that over the course of a few weeks we've gone from "Police can do no wrong" all the way over to "police can do no right".

I've found myself, a person who's traditionally been considered "anti police" or at least highly skeptical, now defending them, because we've gone too far the other way. We've gone from an error of defect to an error of excess. Abolishing police outright or making it such that they cannot do their jobs is going to have even worse consequences than not holding them to account has. We are already seeing this in cities where police are in the process of being abolished, have been ordered to stand down, or are scared to do their jobs because if they defend themselves they lose their jobs and go to jail:

New York City disbanded their plains clothes detectives units in response to calls to "defund the police", shootings have gone up by 358% compared to the same time period in 2019: Weekly NYC Shootings Soar 358% Over Last Year, Data Shows

In Minneapolis -- whose City Council unanimously voted to abolish the police, while spending $4500 daily for private security for themselves -- At least 113 people have been shot since May 25 which is unprecedented for that city (which is about 400,000 people): https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...YkvEGyKQZLmxurY#click=https://t.co/sdFLVyafiq

Shootings are also up in Atlanta in the wake of the "Blue Flu" over officers being fired: Shootings up, traffic stops and drug arrests down during period of 'blue flu'

And this is just the beginning. Abolishing the police or making them too terrified and meek to do their job properly is not a solution. We need real solutions by way of legitimate police reform and tackling the root causes. Now, I know that people say that's where the funds taken away from police will go, but I don't think you can start defunding police until after the crime rates are reduced. That said I recognize that police forces have become bloated and have been growing for years despite reduction in crime. This is a problem I've fought against in my personal life for years, but, again, we need a reasonable and measured approach not what's going on right now.

Good post

There was an excellent 30 minute segment on Joe Rogan with Jocko Willink on the topic of defunding. I thought it was level headed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUhdc1GAddk&feature=share

 

[Duke749]

I agree that abuse of power by the state should be of great concern to everyone and that there absolutely are major reforms needed to our policing model. Not only the increase in police violence, but the overall intrusion into peoples' lives, and other heavy-handed tactics that are not necessarily violent.

In my view, a huge piece of this has long been the complete lack of accountability police have been held to for several years. The big problem now is that over the course of a few weeks we've gone from "Police can do no wrong" all the way over to "police can do no right".

I've found myself, a person who's traditionally been considered "anti police" or at least highly skeptical, now defending them, because we've gone too far the other way. We've gone from an error of defect to an error of excess. Abolishing police outright or making it such that they cannot do their jobs is going to have even worse consequences than not holding them to account has. We are already seeing this in cities where police are in the process of being abolished, have been ordered to stand down, or are scared to do their jobs because if they defend themselves they lose their jobs and go to jail:

New York City disbanded their plains clothes detectives units in response to calls to "defund the police", shootings have gone up by 358% compared to the same time period in 2019: Weekly NYC Shootings Soar 358% Over Last Year, Data Shows

In Minneapolis -- whose City Council unanimously voted to abolish the police, while spending $4500 daily for private security for themselves -- At least 113 people have been shot since May 25 which is unprecedented for that city (which is about 400,000 people): https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...YkvEGyKQZLmxurY#click=https://t.co/sdFLVyafiq

Shootings are also up in Atlanta in the wake of the "Blue Flu" over officers being fired: Shootings up, traffic stops and drug arrests down during period of 'blue flu'

And this is just the beginning. Abolishing the police or making them too terrified and meek to do their job properly is not a solution. We need real solutions by way of legitimate police reform and tackling the root causes. Now, I know that people say that's where the funds taken away from police will go, but I don't think you can start defunding police until after the crime rates are reduced. That said I recognize that police forces have become bloated and have been growing for years despite reduction in crime. This is a problem I've fought against in my personal life for years, but, again, we need a reasonable and measured approach not what's going on right now.

Here’s another article about Atlanta shootings up from the AJC. OPINION: Why no outrage? Atlanta shootings surge, but it’s not the cops

I also talked to my cousin last week who works for the Cobb County(about 10-15 mins north of downtown Atlanta) Police Department(both her and her husband are officers) and she said they had already hired 12 former Atlanta officers and had 5 more in the process of hiring as well as some other surrounding counties.

 

[Eyeseeing]

Here’s another article about Atlanta shootings up from the AJC. OPINION: Why no outrage? Atlanta shootings surge, but it’s not the cops

I also talked to my cousin last week who works for the Cobb County(about 10-15 mins north of downtown Atlanta) Police Department(both her and her husband are officers) and she said they had already hired 12 former Atlanta officers and had 5 more in the process of hiring as well as some other surrounding counties.

That’s incredible about the frequency of gun fire.
Clearly no winners here.
Terrible situation.

 

[tacogeoff]

Good post

There was an excellent 30 minute segment on Joe Rogan with Jocko Willink on the topic of defunding. I thought it was level headed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUhdc1GAddk&feature=share

very logical. I posted the exact same discussion by another youtuber last month but it got removed really quick. maybe it was to soon. I dont know.

but I agree more money and time needs to be spent on police training.

 

[ps241]

very logical. I posted the exact same discussion by another youtuber last month but it got removed really quick. maybe it was to soon. I dont know.

but I agree more money and time needs to be spent on police training.

Jocko is a pretty calm and rational guy. He looks like a jar head but I find him very humble and insightful. He has also operated in a theatre I have no comprehension for so I enjoy getting an education.

 

[Gnova]

very logical. I posted the exact same discussion by another youtuber last month but it got removed really quick. maybe it was to soon. I dont know.

but I agree more money and time needs to be spent on police training.

Maybe if they spent less money on buying mitary gear and training cops how to become soldiers they would have some left over for training.

 

[tacogeoff]

Maybe if they spent less money on buying mitary gear and training cops how to become soldiers they would have some left over for training.

Some of the gear is quite extreme in the states.

Your joking about training them to be soldiers right? They get nowhere near that type of training. Or was that sarcasm?

 

[Gnova]

Some of the gear is quite extreme in the states.

Your joking about training them to be soldiers right? They get nowhere near that type of training. Or was that sarcasm?

Not literally turning them into soldiers.
If they spent more money and time training them to properly interact with the public instead of how to throw tear gas canisters and use tasers perhaps things would be better.

 

[tbcwpg]

Similarly to the COVID thread - now that hockey is back in training camp, this is now closed.