Bettman says no expansion or relocation; why were Conferences made unequal?

[MoreOrr]

Absolutely. Beyond the league having a preference to open up new markets, such as the U.S. northwest, I think alignment will be dealt with only after they know where any new teams will be. And if one of those teams belongs in the East conference, we could easily see another Winnipeg-like situation with them playing in the West for a couple of years.

I think that is generally true, but there is always the possibility of a single over-riding factor that would induce the league to go with a particular bid even though they didn't have the complete package. For example, I have to think that if Nike came along waving some of their money and marketing power at the league, Bettman would take a Nike-backed Portland franchise in a minute even if there still wasn't a suitable arena yet. (Of course I am thinking back to how the league once gave sweetened terms to Blockbuster and Disney when the Panthers and Mighty Ducks franchises were awarded.)

Here are my assumptions, and they're based on a series of IFs:

1) If the Seattle option for the NHL comes to fruition, then the League will definitely want to go there.

2) If the League primarily only wants to look to western expansion options, then at least at the moment Portland seems the only viable other option.

3) If the League is keen on adding 2 teams over the next 4 years, and following from #2 above, then Portland again at the moment seems like the only likely option.

4) It is extremely hard to imagine that the League will put two new expansion franchises in the same Division in the same Season. If the two cities that the League wants are in the same general area, then one is likely to enter the League a Season or two after the other.

5) If the League does seriously consider and want Portland in addition to Seattle, then once Seattle has been confirmed as a go-ahead, Portland will likely receive the first expansion team, followed by Seattle a year or two later.


* #4 could apply to whichever far western city that might get an expansion team in combination with Seattle, whether it be Las Vegas, Sacramento, San Diego, Salt Lake City, or whatever location in the general region that someone can think of. To have two expansion teams in the same Season, I'd bet that they'd be likely going in two different Divisions.

Furthermore, with two more far-western cities, that would mean another MTZ team being put into the Central, which would have to be Phoenix. And then, in regard to Phoenix, I also think the League could be waiting until the 5-year plan plays out there and to see if the Coyotes might still have to be relocated; which also could play into the expansion location plans.

You've got a lot of variables and incongruencies there, and the League probably does not have any specific expansion plans until it sees how most of these variables are going to play out.

 

[PCSPounder]

I think that is generally true, but there is always the possibility of a single over-riding factor that would induce the league to go with a particular bid even though they didn't have the complete package. For example, I have to think that if Nike came along waving some of their money and marketing power at the league, Bettman would take a Nike-backed Portland franchise in a minute even if there still wasn't a suitable arena yet.

I realize this is a nitpick (though I realize it more than most other people would), but there's a reason to say this:

Nike will never do this as long as Phil Knight is alive, and nobody else coming out of Nike will be rich enough to do this when PK passes.

They've never done- and probably never will do- anything in Portland, outside maybe lending their name to a museum in the Rose Quarter. In fact, the latest project is probably going to be an expansion of Hayward Field in Eugene, if it attracts the Track & Field World Championships (NCAA is placing all T&F championships through 2021 in Eugene). Nike does contract with European soccer clubs, but only seems to want to make contracts with leagues in the States. Phil Knight had a dalliance as part owner of the Arizona Diamondbacks, but several cash calls later, he was out of that game. I've seen an interview where one can infer that he understands the principle "stick to the knitting," and he sees himself and his company as outfitters and not team operators.

There will be no expansion to Portland... unless someone else insanely walks in with the money and their own arena plan. Someday, Paul Allen may well pick up something on the cheap (while finding a way to "inflate the sale price") and place it in the Rose Garden. I just don't think he'll put up raw cash for expansion. Nobody else will bow to his demands regarding arena revenues; that's for sure

 

[gstommylee]

I realize this is a nitpick (though I realize it more than most other people would), but there's a reason to say this:

Nike will never do this as long as Phil Knight is alive, and nobody else coming out of Nike will be rich enough to do this when PK passes.

They've never done- and probably never will do- anything in Portland, outside maybe lending their name to a museum in the Rose Quarter. In fact, the latest project is probably going to be an expansion of Hayward Field in Eugene, if it attracts the Track & Field World Championships (NCAA is placing all T&F championships through 2021 in Eugene). Nike does contract with European soccer clubs, but only seems to want to make contracts with leagues in the States. Phil Knight had a dalliance as part owner of the Arizona Diamondbacks, but several cash calls later, he was out of that game.

There will be no expansion to Portland... unless someone else insanely walks in with the money and their own arena plan. Someday, Paul Allen may well pick up something on the cheap (while finding a way to "inflate the sale price") and place it in the Rose Garden. I just don't think he'll put up raw cash for expansion. Nobody else will bow to his demands regarding arena revenues; that's for sure

There won't be another arena just for hockey in portland.

 

[tsanuri]

I think that is generally true, but there is always the possibility of a single over-riding factor that would induce the league to go with a particular bid even though they didn't have the complete package. For example, I have to think that if Nike came along waving some of their money and marketing power at the league, Bettman would take a Nike-backed Portland franchise in a minute even if there still wasn't a suitable arena yet. (Of course I am thinking back to how the league once gave sweetened terms to Blockbuster and Disney when the Panthers and Mighty Ducks franchises were awarded.)

As I have pointed out Paul Allen owns both the Blazers and the Rose Garden where they play. And was making a move for the Yotes if the deal in Phoenix fell through. Portland doesn't need Nike they have a very stable owner that has expressed interest. And let's be honest owning your arena is a huge deal for the team. And don't think the league wouldn't take Allen in a minute. That would give him basketball, football, soccer, and hockey.

 

[PCSPounder]

As I have pointed out Paul Allen owns both the Blazers and the Rose Garden where they play. And was making a move for the Yotes if the deal in Phoenix fell through. Portland doesn't need Nike they have a very stable owner that has expressed interest. And let's be honest owning your arena is a huge deal for the team. And don't think the league wouldn't take Allen in a minute. That would give him basketball, football, soccer, and hockey.

All true...

...the mystery here, to me, is what kind of move was made for the Yotes. Was it public posturing?

The media here are saying that Portland was the first choice for the Coyotes if they left Glendale. This is notable, because the media knew darn well that there hadn't been note one of this prior, and it was most everyone's understanding that Allen had kicked the tires a few times and then basically begged off. Nobody thought this was going to happen. That it was announced at all is a departure from the MO of the last 10 years or so.

However, I still cannot see where Allen pays expansion money for a team. I think he wants a bit of a discount, and he sees himself more savior than initiator. 20-some years ago, when he bought the Blazers, he had a different outlook... and he more than fancied basketball. Now, he's all too understanding of the business.

 

[Fugu]

4) It is extremely hard to imagine that the League will put two new expansion franchises in the same Division in the same Season. If the two cities that the League wants are in the same general area, then one is likely to enter the League a Season or two after the other.
...
* #4 could apply to whichever far western city that might get an expansion team in combination with Seattle, whether it be Las Vegas, Sacramento, San Diego, Salt Lake City, or whatever location in the general region that someone can think of. To have two expansion teams in the same Season, I'd bet that they'd be likely going in two different Divisions.

All the cities mentioned, including Portland and Seattle, would logically only fit in the Pacific Division.

 

[Fugu]

All true...

...the mystery here, to me, is what kind of move was made for the Yotes. Was it public posturing?

The media here are saying that Portland was the first choice for the Coyotes if they left Glendale. This is notable, because the media knew darn well that there hadn't been note one of this prior, and it was most everyone's understanding that Allen had kicked the tires a few times and then basically begged off. Nobody thought this was going to happen. That it was announced at all is a departure from the MO of the last 10 years or so.

However, I still cannot see where Allen pays expansion money for a team. I think he wants a bit of a discount, and he sees himself more savior than initiator. 20-some years ago, when he bought the Blazers, he had a different outlook... and he more than fancied basketball. Now, he's all too understanding of the business.

Portland was 'an' option possibly, but I'm not convinced that was the only option the league was considering.

Bringing an NHL team to Portland only makes sense at a certain price, and that price isn't some of these outrageous figures being tossed around (the $250 MM and higher level). Portland is a smaller city, not remotely close to Seattle in terms of economic heft.

Then, of course, he doesn't have to pay a premium either. Does the league want to be in that location? If they do, he has the arena, the money, and knows the business plus several of the BOG members with whom there is overlap in NHL and NBA ownership. He's an insider in this sense.

 

[dj4aces]

I think we all know that Bettman talks out of so many sides of his mouth that he has no idea what one side is telling the other.

 

[mouser]

I think we all know that Bettman talks out of so many sides of his mouth that he has no idea what one side is telling the other.

Bettman is extraordinarily careful in his words. Comes with being a lawyer and head of the league. Sometimes he uses calculated words to imply the league wants to see something happen--e.g. New arena in city X with public funds. Sometimes he uses calculated words to reduce the possibility media will jump to conclusions that the league has made particular decisions--e.g. Expansion.

If you take the view that he does this because he doesn't know really know what he's saying then you're at an extreme disadvantage in evaluating anything he says.

 

[dj4aces]

Bettman is extraordinarily careful in his words.

I suppose I should have indicated in some way that my previous post was out of spite, rather than out of some sort of interpretation of his statements.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Portland was 'an' option possibly, but I'm not convinced that was the only option the league was considering.

Bringing an NHL team to Portland only makes sense at a certain price, and that price isn't some of these outrageous figures being tossed around (the $250 MM and higher level). Portland is a smaller city, not remotely close to Seattle in terms of economic heft.

Then, of course, he doesn't have to pay a premium either. Does the league want to be in that location? If they do, he has the arena, the money, and knows the business plus several of the BOG members with whom there is overlap in NHL and NBA ownership. He's an insider in this sense.

I think if the league could pick two markets that they would want to put franchises in where it has the traits they desire, I believe they'd choose Seattle and Houston.

 

[MoreOrr]

All the cities mentioned, including Portland and Seattle, would logically only fit in the Pacific Division.

That was my point, that no matter what combination of two of those cities would mean two new expansion teams in the same Division, and it's unlikely that two expansion teams would be put in the same Division in the same Season. If the League chooses two expansion sites from the far west, then the expansion would likely take place in over a 2 or 3 Season span, first one and then the other.

 

[MoreOrr]

Portland was 'an' option possibly, but I'm not convinced that was the only option the league was considering.

Bringing an NHL team to Portland only makes sense at a certain price, and that price isn't some of these outrageous figures being tossed around (the $250 MM and higher level). Portland is a smaller city, not remotely close to Seattle in terms of economic heft.

Then, of course, he doesn't have to pay a premium either. Does the league want to be in that location? If they do, he has the arena, the money, and knows the business plus several of the BOG members with whom there is overlap in NHL and NBA ownership. He's an insider in this sense.

That's why I think that Portland is still being kept as a possible out for the Coyotes if the 5-year experiment doesn't pan out. And, if that is the case, then where exactly is this other western expansion location option? And again, if it's another far western option, in addition to Seattle, I still then can't imagine that two far western cities would get expansion teams, and put in the same Division in the same Season.

 

[Fugu]

That was my point, that no matter what combination of two of those cities would mean two new expansion teams in the same Division, and it's unlikely that two expansion teams would be put in the same Division in the same Season. If the League chooses two expansion sites from the far west, then the expansion would likely take place in over a 2 or 3 Season span, first one and then the other.

Why do you think it's unlikely that they'd add two at the same time? I mean, I can understand that the new teams would take a total beating but if the best options are the ones we keep bringing up (absent moving an Eastern team West again), I don't see that they have any choice. Would one year really make that much of a difference?

Then again, if it's really QC that's a frontrunner, along with Seattle, the only question is if Detroit is willing to move again, and if not, who then?

That's why I think that Portland is still being kept as a possible out for the Coyotes if the 5-year experiment doesn't pan out. And, if that is the case, then where exactly is this other western expansion location option? And again, if it's another far western option, in addition to Seattle, I still then can't imagine that two far western cities would get expansion teams, and put in the same Division in the same Season.

Portland indeed may be kept in reserve for a relocation. The other cities all would command a nice expansion figure. If the league is faced with a need to relocate a team, they need something that can be ready within months, not years. Portland has everything needed at the right price.

 

[mouser]

Portland indeed may be kept in reserve for a relocation. The other cities all would command a nice expansion figure. If the league is faced with a need to relocate a team, they need something that can be ready within months, not years. Portland has everything needed at the right price.

Portland is in the same situation as Houston with regards to acquiring an NHL team. Either Paul Allen and Les Alexander want one or it's not going to happen.

If Paul Allen actually wants a team--and I'm not convinced he does unless its at a good price--it would be awkward for the NHL to charge larger expansion fees to anywhere other than GTA2 and then allow a relocation sale to Portland at a lower price.

 

[MoreOrr]

Portland is in the same situation as Houston with regards to acquiring an NHL team. Either Paul Allen and Les Alexander want one or it's not going to happen.

If Paul Allen actually wants a team--and I'm not convinced he does unless its at a good price--it would be awkward for the NHL to charge larger expansion fees to anywhere other than GTA2 and then allow a relocation sale to Portland at a lower price.

Portland was already in the market for acquiring the Coyotes. The question is, would potential owners for a team in Portland want to pay expansion fees and get a team that they'd need to go through the tough years of building from scratch.

 

[Enigma Publius]

Re: alignment and expansion ... as kooky as it sounds, there's nothing from stopping the NHL from going to a 15-17 conference split. Sure, 16-16 is balanced and is the most reasonable outcome ... but how often do "balanced" and "reasonable" apply to the NHL?

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

All the cities mentioned, including Portland and Seattle, would logically only fit in the Pacific Division.

I wager if they expanded in Seattle and Portland, Phoenix is who gets bumped over to the Central division. It seems like the only solution, assuming the aforementioned cities are on the NHL's radar.

I still maintain Quebec City is of less interest to the league than the media portrays. Between the language issue, competition with the Habs financially and the NHL's preference to grow the game outside Canada. It just does not appear likely, by my estimation. I also do not feel Detroit would accept being relocated back to the West to fix the imbalance.

 

[Slashers98]

Now that Quebecor and Peladeau are partners with the NHL regarding the Canadian TV contract, I'm sure they are out of the running for an NHL team. NOT! You don't make sense with Portland and Seattle is certainly considered, but we're still waiting for the first shovel in the ground... Quebec City's arena will be ready in September 2015...

 

[Acesolid]

I wager if they expanded in Seattle and Portland, Phoenix is who gets bumped over to the Central division. It seems like the only solution, assuming the aforementioned cities are on the NHL's radar.

I still maintain Quebec City is of less interest to the league than the media portrays. Between the language issue, competition with the Habs financially and the NHL's preference to grow the game outside Canada. It just does not appear likely, by my estimation. I also do not feel Detroit would accept being relocated back to the West to fix the imbalance.

Come on man!

Not only is montreal 3 hours away from Quebec, out of Montreal's territory. But do you really think the nhl heads are racist enough to throw away money?

I am quite certain the heads of the nhl care about money, not race (or nationality) in their decisions.

 

[Darlotto99]

lawyer talk

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Come on man!

Not only is montreal 3 hours away from Quebec, out of Montreal's territory. But do you really think the nhl heads are racist enough to throw away money?

I am quite certain the heads of the nhl care about money, not race (or nationality) in their decisions.

Racist is hardly the proper term, but regardless it has less to do with that and more politics. Why deal with language issues and Quebec politics when there are viable alternatives absent the headache? Furthermore, the intent has always been to grow the game in the United States, which is more beneficial in the long haul.

You also have to factor in the financial loss that could come from the Canadiens having to split television time and etc. As of now, they have exclusivity on the entire Quebec market and I doubt they fancy losing it. Hell, that is one of the primary reasons Toronto has fought a Hamilton expansion/relocation.

Now that Quebecor and Peladeau are partners with the NHL regarding the Canadian TV contract, I'm sure they are out of the running for an NHL team. NOT! You don't make sense with Portland and Seattle is certainly considered, but we're still waiting for the first shovel in the ground... Quebec City's arena will be ready in September 2015...

And? Even if we disregard politics, an expansion to Quebec necessities either Detroit or Columbus going back west or MoreOrr's theory of an eventual relocation of the Coyotes. I guarantee Detroit will fight tooth and nail to stay where they are, while the west almost seemed like a death sentence to Columbus. Couple that with the aforementioned losses the Canadiens might face and you have three organizations who would easily oppose a Quebec franchise.

 

[Stanley Cup]

Racist is hardly the proper term, but regardless it has less to do with that and more politics. Why deal with language issues and Quebec politics when there are viable alternatives absent the headache? Furthermore, the intent has always been to grow the game in the United States, which is more beneficial in the long haul.

I don't see any "language issues". Quebecor is paying 1.5B$ for TV rights and creating TVASports2, while adding studios in the new Colisée at the price of "30 to 40M$", you'd think they'd be looking for more than 22 Canadiens games, eh? I don't see how this is related to politics. And sure about the growth in the USA, but here you are with a 1.5B$ TV contract for french rights and I don't think the [insert english canada team] will generate high enough ratings to make up for the price paid.

You also have to factor in the financial loss that could come from the Canadiens having to split television time and etc. As of now, they have exclusivity on the entire Quebec market and I doubt they fancy losing it. Hell, that is one of the primary reasons Toronto has fought a Hamilton expansion/relocation.

Geoff Molson stated on several occasions he would like to see a team in Quebec and it would be beneficial for hockey in the province.

And? Even if we disregard politics, an expansion to Quebec necessities either Detroit or Columbus going back west or MoreOrr's theory of an eventual relocation of the Coyotes. I guarantee Detroit will fight tooth and nail to stay where they are, while the west almost seemed like a death sentence to Columbus. Couple that with the aforementioned losses the Canadiens might face and you have three organizations who would easily oppose a Quebec franchise.

The actual alignment is good for only 2 seasons after this one. I think there is a reason for that, it does not look like it will be a permanent one and as I've said elsewhere they could very well go with 8 divisions of 4 teams in the long run. The Jets handled playing in the east, I think we could play in the central or whatever it's called for a season.

 

[Tackla]

Biggest myth that people believe on this board right now:

That the NHL will give any consideration whatsoever to balanced conferences when relocating or expanding.

...It's a non-factor.

 

[rojac]

Now that Quebecor and Peladeau are partners with the NHL regarding the Canadian TV contract, I'm sure they are out of the running for an NHL team. NOT! You don't make sense with Portland and Seattle is certainly considered, but we're still waiting for the first shovel in the ground... Quebec City's arena will be ready in September 2015...

Actually, I'd argue that Quebecor is partners with Rogers who are partners with the NHL. And I'm not sure the arena means anything. I think the Pacific Northwest is a more desirable target to the NHL and this may be their best chance to get into that market and if they have to ignore a two-time NHL failure with a new arena to do so, so be it.