Better career crosby vs ovechkin

[daver]

Now turn the clock back to 2010, before Ovechkin started to slip and most would have believed this to be true.

Ovechkin was almost universally regarded as the best player in the world. He played with passion, intensity, he hit everything that moved and he was the most electrifying player in the world, and he didn't whine or dive either.

Crosby hasn't even been the best Penguins player at times over the past 9 years, let alone the NHL.

Too bad his greatness was built on a house of cards.

 

[daver]

Are people still trying to convince the rest of us that Crosby is as good as Jagr?

Weren't we supposed to see Crosby explode for 130 + Pts this season.

If not for his ultra hot start and for Giroux' ultra poor start, Crosby wouldn't have even won the Art Ross.

Those trying to credit Crosby for winning the Art Ross by a large gap while always downplaying what Malkin did in 2011-12 or what Sedin did in 2010-11 because "Crosby" was injured both those seasons are using a double standard in the worst way possible.

Double standards of using PPG's and paces for Crosby as well as games missed arguments is becoming very boring. Malkin had 72 Pts in 60 games which prorated to 80 games (the amount of games Crosby played) has Malkin scoring at a 96 Pts clip thus making Crosby's gap an 8 Pts lead.

Malkin played in 20 less games than Crosby did and there was a point early on in the season before he got injured when he was actually ahead of Crosby in scoring des[ite the fact that Crosby came out of the gate on fire. When Malkin dominated the NHL in 2011-12, Crosby played in just 22 games. Malkin litteraly carried those Penguins on his back. Crosby's contributions to the Penguins this season have been overrated. Crosby and Crosby fans alike are very lucky that Malkin and Stamkos (his most legitimate contenders) had to miss significant time due to injuries or otherwise Crosby probably doesn't even sniff at the Art Ross or Hart for that matter. This was one of the worst seasons in terms of higher end talent in recent memory.

For a player who is supposed to be the NHL's best player AINEC, he sure was average over his last 34 games scoring just 11 goals (pace of 27 goals) and totalling 37 Pts (pace of 89 Pts). I hardly call that carrying a team or maintaining a torrid pace.

Classic double standard as usual. Crosby's been better after 9 seasons than Jagr was. Deal with it.

 

[daver]

Not my criteria sir.
My criteria was clearly stated in the part of that post that you cut out in your last response.
In other words, the part of my post you didn't even attempt to respond to

As far as the rest...how long do you honestly think it would take me to go through some of your Crosby posts to find one that has you trying to present paces and projections as the main crux of your arguments?
Heh

Not your criteria? How does Malkin get to 119 points in 2012? How does Getzlaf get closer than 17 points this year?

Credit for missed games, that's how. Unless you have a reason to not apply this to Crosby, it would appear you are selective in the nuggets that need to be toughened.

If you aren't being selective, tell me what credit do you give Crosby for games he missed and, once credit is given, whether he still was behind OV over the past four years.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Now turn the clock back to 2010, before Ovechkin started to slip and most would have believed this to be true.

Ovechkin was almost universally regarded as the best player in the world. He played with passion, intensity, he hit everything that moved and he was the most electrifying player in the world, and he didn't whine or dive either.

Crosby hasn't even been the best Penguins player at times over the past 9 years, let alone the NHL.

2 harts 3 Lindsay's 2 art rosses 1 richard and 5 100 point seasons really bugs you ey?

 

[Incognito]

Are people still trying to convince the rest of us that Crosby is as good as Jagr?

Weren't we supposed to see Crosby explode for 130 + Pts this season.

If not for his ultra hot start and for Giroux' ultra poor start, Crosby wouldn't have even won the Art Ross.

Those trying to credit Crosby for winning the Art Ross by a large gap while always downplaying what Malkin did in 2011-12 or what Sedin did in 2010-11 because "Crosby" was injured both those seasons are using a double standard in the worst way possible.

Double standards of using PPG's and paces for Crosby as well as games missed arguments is becoming very boring. Malkin had 72 Pts in 60 games which prorated to 80 games (the amount of games Crosby played) has Malkin scoring at a 96 Pts clip thus making Crosby's gap an 8 Pts lead.

Malkin played in 20 less games than Crosby did and there was a point early on in the season before he got injured when he was actually ahead of Crosby in scoring des[ite the fact that Crosby came out of the gate on fire. When Malkin dominated the NHL in 2011-12, Crosby played in just 22 games. Malkin litteraly carried those Penguins on his back. Crosby's contributions to the Penguins this season have been overrated. Crosby and Crosby fans alike are very lucky that Malkin and Stamkos (his most legitimate contenders) had to miss significant time due to injuries or otherwise Crosby probably doesn't even sniff at the Art Ross or Hart for that matter. This was one of the worst seasons in terms of higher end talent in recent memory.

For a player who is supposed to be the NHL's best player AINEC, he sure was average over his last 34 games scoring just 11 goals (pace of 27 goals) and totalling 37 Pts (pace of 89 Pts). I hardly call that carrying a team or maintaining a torrid pace.

So what, we're supposed to discount part of the season in order to reflect the outcome that you prefer? You can't just say "if you take out that one slump from this player's season, the pace he was on would have won him the Art Ross". It doesn't work like that. It's called a slump, and it happens to every player throughout the course of a season. Just like how you noted that Crosby went through a slump in the final 34 games of the season (though an 89 point pace, maintained throughout the course of a full-season, still would have won him the Art Ross this year), other players have them too. You can't just decide to count one player's slump and ignore another one's to fit your argument better. That's asinine. Crosby detractors are the ones who always go all shoulda-coulda-woulda and cry about people using hypotheticals, yet they turn around and do the exact same thing when it suits them.

Also, your comment about Malkin being ahead of Crosby in the scoring race at one point early on in the season is untrue. Malkin never, at any point during the season, was ahead of or even tied with Crosby in points. He always trailed Crosby throughout the entire season. If you don't believe me, check their game logs. I did. So to say that Crosby is lucky that Malkin got injured or he wouldn't have sniffed the Art Ross is ridiculous. Malkin never had a lead in the scoring race even once this year, and he finished the year with a lower point-per-game rate than Crosby. He wouldn't have won, even if he was healthy. As for Stamkos, really? He's a great player, but his career high in points is 97. Crosby's never had lower than 102 points in a full season. You're really grasping at straws.

 

[Beau Knows]

Crosby and Crosby fans alike are very lucky that Malkin and Stamkos (his most legitimate contenders) had to miss significant time due to injuries or otherwise Crosby probably doesn't even sniff at the Art Ross or Hart for that matter.

Yes, Crosby probably doesn't sniff the Art Ross. He led the league in points per game (again), he won by 17 points.

If you want to play the what if game (which you used to dismiss but are apparently now a big fan of), then the rest of the NHL is lucky that Crosby missed time or he would have at least 4 Art Ross trophies right now. The double standard is amazing.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Not your criteria? How does Malkin get to 119 points in 2012? How does Getzlaf get closer than 17 points this year?

Credit for missed games, that's how. Unless you have a reason to not apply this to Crosby, it would appear you are selective in the nuggets that need to be toughened.

If you aren't being selective, tell me what credit do you give Crosby for games he missed and, once credit is given, whether he still was behind OV over the past four years.

Ok, I'm going to be real simple about this then.

Just answer me why Malkin's 11/12 Art Ross isn't as good or is inferior to Crosby's Art Ross this season?

 

[Hardyvan123]

Are people still trying to convince the rest of us that Crosby is as good as Jagr?

Weren't we supposed to see Crosby explode for 130 + Pts this season.

If not for his ultra hot start and for Giroux' ultra poor start, Crosby wouldn't have even won the Art Ross.

Those trying to credit Crosby for winning the Art Ross by a large gap while always downplaying what Malkin did in 2011-12 or what Sedin did in 2010-11 because "Crosby" was injured both those seasons are using a double standard in the worst way possible.

Double standards of using PPG's and paces for Crosby as well as games missed arguments is becoming very boring. Malkin had 72 Pts in 60 games which prorated to 80 games (the amount of games Crosby played) has Malkin scoring at a 96 Pts clip thus making Crosby's gap an 8 Pts lead.

Malkin played in 20 less games than Crosby did and there was a point early on in the season before he got injured when he was actually ahead of Crosby in scoring des[ite the fact that Crosby came out of the gate on fire. When Malkin dominated the NHL in 2011-12, Crosby played in just 22 games. Malkin litteraly carried those Penguins on his back. Crosby's contributions to the Penguins this season have been overrated. Crosby and Crosby fans alike are very lucky that Malkin and Stamkos (his most legitimate contenders) had to miss significant time due to injuries or otherwise Crosby probably doesn't even sniff at the Art Ross or Hart for that matter. This was one of the worst seasons in terms of higher end talent in recent memory.

For a player who is supposed to be the NHL's best player AINEC, he sure was average over his last 34 games scoring just 11 goals (pace of 27 goals) and totalling 37 Pts (pace of 89 Pts). I hardly call that carrying a team or maintaining a torrid pace.

I won't even bother to respond to the whole post but you do realize that Sid's horrible pace (89 point pace) over his last 34 games this seasons still would have won the scoring title right?

How is the world is that average?

Malkin is not even close to the consistent superstar that Sid is either, why do people try to pretend otherwise?

 

[Regal]

I won't even bother to respond to the whole post but you do realize that Sid's horrible pace (89 point pace) over his last 34 games this seasons still would have won the scoring title right?

How is the world is that average?

Malkin is not even close to the consistent superstar that Sid is either, why do people try to pretend otherwise?

And this is pretty much what has always set Crosby apart from others. Even his slumps still put him in elite company. A lot of detractors critique his top end play and I've heard people say "well if he's really the best player he should always be the best", but while he has definitely been great at times, there's few players who consistently produce at an elite level every year, injuries or not. The three years before this will likely be always debated for awhile on just what he could have done, especially if he never holds a similar pace over a full year, but his consistency I think needs yo be commended. I mean, when you have to criticize a player by saying he only played at an art Ross winning pace for the final 34 games of a year means he must be pretty damn good.

 

[canuck2010]

Until then he wasn't just scoring, he was busting people up physically. A groin tweak, a few shoulder injuries and a few suspensions later he seems to have adopted a considerably less "assertive" approach to the game, and the perception of his defensive game has obviously suffered the most as a result. Another credit to Crosby, imo, who has undoubtedly faced the "bigger" health obstacles, yet seems to have come back better than ever each time.

Ovi's style of game initially was very reckless and out of control. Always a threat to injure other players if that's what you mean by "busting people up"

 

[canuck2010]

give Crosby team like Caps and he will have zero cups aswell. Switch Ovy and Crosby in Olympics and Ovy has two golds and Sid has zero.

No thanks. Playing the way he does he wouldn't make Team Canada.

 

[canuck2010]

Thanks, I needed a laugh.

Me too!

 

[canuck2010]

I will never understand why some people use team accomplishments when evaluating individual careers.

I will never understand why some people just don't get the fact that some players individual careers happen at the expense of their team success.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

Easily Crosby. He has the full hockey resume.

Captain a team to a Stanley Cup.
Captain team Canada to a Gold Medal, as well as score a game winner for his first ever Gold Medal.
Won Hart Memorial Trophy.
Won Rocket Richard (But did tie Stamkos).
Won Art Ross.
Won Lester B. Pearson.
Went 1st overall.
NHL All Star; first team.
World Junior Gold.

Ovi only did five of those.

 

[Ishdul]

I will never understand why some people just don't get the fact that some players individual careers happen at the expense of their team success.

That's a good way to describe a terrible goalie who manages to retain his job and the dumbest possible way to describe Ovechkin.

No thanks. Playing the way he does he wouldn't make Team Canada.

Even if you're very anti-Ovechkin you can't possibly believe this. They're as big of proponents of goal totals and reputations as anyone and a guy like Nash has now made Team Canada 3 times.

 

[Ishdul]

Easily Crosby. He has the full hockey resume.

Captain a team to a Stanley Cup.
Captain team Canada to a Gold Medal, as well as score a game winner for his first ever Gold Medal.
Won Hart Memorial Trophy.
Won Rocket Richard (But did tie Stamkos).
Won Art Ross.
Won Lester B. Pearson.
Went 1st overall.
NHL All Star; first team.
World Junior Gold.

Ovi only did five of those.

He did the last 7 of those. And it would be quite impossible for him to captain Team Canada.

 

[Plural]

No thanks. Playing the way he does he wouldn't make Team Canada.

Seriously? Ovechkin would not be a member of the TC in Sochi or Vancouver?

 

[Rhiessan71]

Easily Crosby. He has the full hockey resume.

Captain a team to a Stanley Cup.
Captain team Canada to a Gold Medal, as well as score a game winner for his first ever Gold Medal.
Won Hart Memorial Trophy.
Won Rocket Richard (But did tie Stamkos).
Won Art Ross.
Won Lester B. Pearson.
Went 1st overall.
NHL All Star; first team.
World Junior Gold.

Ovi only did five of those.

Won Calder Memorial Trophy (over Crosby)
Won 3 Hart Memorial Trophies (Crosby has 1)
Won 4 Rocket Richard's (Crosby has 1)
Won Art Ross (Crosby has 2)
Won 3 Lester B Pearson/Ted Lindsay Trophy's (Crosby has 2)
Went 1rst overall 2004 Entry Draft (Crosby went 1rst 2005)
NHL All-Star; First team 6 times, Second 2 times (Crosby First 2 times, Second once)
World Junior Gold 2003 (Crosby Gold in 2005)
5x50 goal seasons (Only 10 other players in NHL history have accomplished this)

Only player in NHL history to be named to the NHL First All-Star Team in each of his first five seasons

If people want to say that Crosby is the best player of the two now and over the past 4 seasons, I have no argument with that BUT that has only been for 61% of the time and that most certainly should be a factor!

Careerwise though, things get a hell of a lot closer and there's really no denying that.

 

[Beau Knows]

5x50 goal seasons (Only 10 other players in NHL history have accomplished this)

Only player in NHL history to be named to the NHL First All-Star Team in each of his first five seasons

Seems weird to add these without adding some for Crosby ie:

-Only teenager scoring champion in North American professional sports history
-Youngest 100 point scorer
-Youngest Lindsay award winner
-Youngest Player to Lead NHL Playoffs in scoring
-Youngest NHL captain to win Stanley Cup
-Youngest player to record 2 consecutive 100-point seasons
-Youngest player to record 200 career points
-5 100 point seasons

 

[Rhiessan71]

Seems weird to add these without adding some for Crosby ie:

-Only teenager scoring champion in North American professional sports history
-Youngest 100 point scorer
-Youngest Lindsay award winner
-Youngest Player to Lead NHL Playoffs in scoring
-Youngest NHL captain to win Stanley Cup
-Youngest player to record 2 consecutive 100-point seasons
-Youngest player to record 200 career points

Not weird at all because all of these records are only because his Bday is in August, while Gretzky's is in January.
Like there's any actual doubt who was better as an 18, 19, 20 and 21 year old between Crosby and Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr.
And these "youngest" records don't really mean that much when players like Ovechkin and especially Mario Lemeiux are automatically disqualified by the NHL to even be able to compete for them.

But as long as we're playing this game...

-Ovechkin is the youngest player to be selected for and play for the Russian National Team
-Ovechkin is also the youngest player to ever score for that National Team
-Ovechkin is the youngest player to ever play in the World Cup of Hockey.


Either way, the only CLEAR edge Crosby has, has been that he's been the better player over the last 4 seasons...









61% of the time!

 

[K Fleur]

Are people still trying to convince the rest of us that Crosby is as good as Jagr?

Weren't we supposed to see Crosby explode for 130 + Pts this season.

If not for his ultra hot start and for Giroux' ultra poor start, Crosby wouldn't have even won the Art Ross.
Those trying to credit Crosby for winning the Art Ross by a large gap while always downplaying what Malkin did in 2011-12 or what Sedin did in 2010-11 because "Crosby" was injured both those seasons are using a double standard in the worst way possible.

Double standards of using PPG's and paces for Crosby as well as games missed arguments is becoming very boring. Malkin had 72 Pts in 60 games which prorated to 80 games (the amount of games Crosby played) has Malkin scoring at a 96 Pts clip thus making Crosby's gap an 8 Pts lead.

Malkin played in 20 less games than Crosby did and there was a point early on in the season before he got injured when he was actually ahead of Crosby in scoring des[ite the fact that Crosby came out of the gate on fire. When Malkin dominated the NHL in 2011-12, Crosby played in just 22 games. Malkin litteraly carried those Penguins on his back. Crosby's contributions to the Penguins this season have been overrated. Crosby and Crosby fans alike are very lucky that Malkin and Stamkos (his most legitimate contenders) had to miss significant time due to injuries or otherwise Crosby probably doesn't even sniff at the Art Ross or Hart for that matter. This was one of the worst seasons in terms of higher end talent in recent memory.

For a player who is supposed to be the NHL's best player AINEC, he sure was average over his last 34 games scoring just 11 goals (pace of 27 goals) and totalling 37 Pts (pace of 89 Pts). I hardly call that carrying a team or maintaining a torrid pace.

If my aunt had balls she's be my uncle. This whole post is utter silliness.

Crosby doesn't even sniff the art Ross or Hart if Stamkos, and Malkin are healthy? I'm going to assume you were drunk when you typed that. Stamkos career best seasson for points doesn't even match Crosby's worst (rookie season) while playing with a former Art Ross, and Hart trophy winner (st. Louis) on his own line all season! Malkin is great, but their is a reason why teams consistently send their #1 defensive units out against Crosby, and not Malkin.

 

[Beau Knows]

Not weird at all because all of these records are only because his Bday is in August

Yet you added first team all-stars to your post, which Ovechkin only has so many of because he is a winger.

 

[Beau Knows]

-Ovechkin is the youngest player to be selected for and play for the Russian National Team
-Ovechkin is also the youngest player to ever score for that National Team
-Ovechkin is the youngest player to ever play in the World Cup of Hockey.

Wow the one you added were much worse.

 

[daver]

Not weird at all because all of these records are only because his Bday is in August, while Gretzky's is in January.
Like there's any actual doubt who was better as an 18, 19, 20 and 21 year old between Crosby and Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr.

At age 20, Crosby was just as, if not more, accomplished than Wayne and Mario as a junior player and was the only one with an Art Ross and Hart. I would say that creates some doubt.

 

[daver]

Ok, I'm going to be real simple about this then.

Just answer me why Malkin's 11/12 Art Ross isn't as good or is inferior to Crosby's Art Ross this season?

First you tell me what Crosby's totals would have been in his 3 injury shortened years. You are the one who brought it up.