Better career crosby vs ovechkin

[Sentinel]

Well that ended that argument. Thanks for doing the work of compiling those stats. Your post ranks up there with the EM71 post that nipped in the bud the whole "Secondary Sid" argument.

There is this little thing called "defense.". Z is an elite shutdown forward that contributes even when not scoring. Crosby in the past few several playoffs has been useless when not on the scoreboard.

 

[nerdman60]

Ovechkin and it's not even close.

 

[Syckle78]

Crosby, no contest. He's actually won Team Awards, not just individual regular season awards.

So Trent Dilfer was better than Marino, right? When are people going to stop with the team awards nonsense when it comes to individual players? Unless you're willing to concede that Lidstrom was head and shoulders better than Bourque since he was instrumental to 4 cup wins and Ray was gifted one.

 

[The Panther]

When are people going to stop with the team awards nonsense when it comes to individual players?

Scanning this (overly long?) thread, I didn't see anyone say that team awards determine who is better when comparing players.

Rather, some people might argue -- entirely reasonably -- that if two players are both elite, and rather similar in overall "individual" (not that there really are such) accomplishments in hockey, then beyond that one might want to look at what their teams achieved.

This strikes me as entirely logical and relevant to the discussion. One is part-and-parcel of one's team, the more so in the case of elite players, who -- more than anyone else -- contribute to their team's success.

Of course, we can't look at, say, one individual season and compare two players by team accomplishments. For example, no one in their right mind would conclude that Teemu Selanne was a 'worse' player in 1993 than Gary Leeman because Leeman's team won the Stanley Cup. Even if we take two fairly 'even' players -- like Crosby and Ovechkin -- it would be meaningless to look at only one or two years and draw a conclusion based on team success.

But Crosby and Ovechkin are no longer young players (by hockey standards). They've been around; they're veterans now. Crosby has won Gold at the Olympics, been to the Cup Final twice, and won the Cup once. Ovechkin has done none of these over 9 years, AND his team has achieved less -- and less consistently -- in the regular season. This is in part why I would rate Crosby a slightly better player over 9 years, taken as a whole.

Ovechkin's own mother has said that Ovie needs to focus on winning the Stanley Cup and Olympic Gold -- that those are two things that should matter to him. Thus, by Ovechkin's own mother's standards, Crosby has been more successful than Ovechkin.

Of course, none of this would hold water if Crosby was scoring 30 points a year to Ovechkin's 100, but the two are fairly even. Thus, the next logical step is to see how they've impacted their team's success. There is nothing wrong with this kind of thinking -- indeed, team success is really the only thing that matters.

 

[Regal]

So Trent Dilfer was better than Marino, right? When are people going to stop with the team awards nonsense when it comes to individual players? Unless you're willing to concede that Lidstrom was head and shoulders better than Bourque since he was instrumental to 4 cup wins and Ray was gifted one.

The Dilfer-Marino type comparisons are such a straw man. As Panther put it, when looking at elite players on generally good teams, if one is generally winning over the long haul and the other is coming up short, it's fair to start thinking that maybe there's something more going on. I'm not sure Crosby has separated himself enough from Ovechkin that it matters though, particularly after the last two playoff defeats.

As for the Lidstrom-Bourque comparison, how was he gifted a cup anymore than Lidstrom? He was the best defenseman on a team no better than the ones Lidstrom won with.

 

[Big Phil]

9 seasons is a long time to have never gotten out of the second round. I mean, look at this past year, Ovechkin leads the NHL in goals and it is barely a footnote. The team was just that bad this year that it almost reminded me of the time when Bure led the NHL in goals while with the Panthers in 2001. The performance of the team and the results of the team overshadowed the goals.

It isn't as if Ovechkin hasn't been on great teams. The Caps led the NHL in points in 2010 by a great deal. 121 points I believe is the second highest in the last 10 years of any team. Eventually you can't keep making excuses for first round losses. Lesser players like Daniel Briere have stepped up and taken their teams very far in the postseason in the past. Even if Ovechkin did it just once he'd be in better shape.

 

[SkinnersAWinner]

My basketball fanatic roommates ask me this all the time so I always compare them to Kevin Durant and LeBron. Crosby being LeBron (better player overall, plays well in nearly all aspects of the game) and Ovechkin to Durant (being a lethal offensive weapon, but maybe not a fully complete player). Just my two cents.

 

[Regal]

9 seasons is a long time to have never gotten out of the second round. I mean, look at this past year, Ovechkin leads the NHL in goals and it is barely a footnote. The team was just that bad this year that it almost reminded me of the time when Bure led the NHL in goals while with the Panthers in 2001. The performance of the team and the results of the team overshadowed the goals.

It isn't as if Ovechkin hasn't been on great teams. The Caps led the NHL in points in 2010 by a great deal. 121 points I believe is the second highest in the last 10 years of any team. Eventually you can't keep making excuses for first round losses. Lesser players like Daniel Briere have stepped up and taken their teams very far in the postseason in the past. Even if Ovechkin did it just once he'd be in better shape.

To be fair he was generally pretty awesome in the playoffs until his regular season play also started to dip, but the team around him didn't do much to help. A guy like Briere has stepped up sure, but he's also never been relied on to the extent Ovechkin has, and in some ways he's been able to be sheltered by his teams since he's a pretty terrible defensive player. I'm not sure if it's fair to criticize him for not stepping up, though perhaps it does call into question whether that type of high scoring winner is the best player to build your team around.

 

[The Panther]

I made a point on some other thread about Dale Hawerchuk, that he never got past the second round of the playoffs in (I think) 16 seasons until 1997 (by which time he was almost a role-player). Naturally, someone jumped all over me and said, "But he had to play against the Oilers... it wasn't fair!... his teams weren't good enough!", etc., etc.

It is obviously true that certain players are lucky in where they end up. But I think in the case of a player like Hawerchuk, who was the "go-to" #1 guy on his teams (two franchises) from 1981 to about 1992, and failed to advance past the second round in 16 years, we have to take some points off his overall evaluation for failure in playoff success.

At this point, I would say the same is true of Ovechkin, although 9 years isn't 16 years.

 

[Capsfan40]

Best quote ever on this board!

So Trent Dilfer was better than Marino, right? When are people going to stop with the team awards nonsense when it comes to individual players? Unless you're willing to concede that Lidstrom was head and shoulders better than Bourque since he was instrumental to 4 cup wins and Ray was gifted one.

The only cup Crosby has was a joke! The Caps and Detroit series were given to Pit. Not earned at all! Just like the lottery giving Pit. Malken and Crosby to keep a team in Pit.

 

[Plural]

Best quote ever on this board!

So Trent Dilfer was better than Marino, right? When are people going to stop with the team awards nonsense when it comes to individual players? Unless you're willing to concede that Lidstrom was head and shoulders better than Bourque since he was instrumental to 4 cup wins and Ray was gifted one.

The only cup Crosby has was a joke! The Caps and Detroit series were given to Pit. Not earned at all! Just like the lottery giving Pit. Malken and Crosby to keep a team in Pit.

Do you have your tin-foil cap on?

 

[canuck2010]

Ovechkin's goals come at the expense of his team. He can score 80 and it still doesn't make him valuable to his team. When will people get that throughout their heads.

Stamkos scores lots of goals too but plays a 200 foot game.

 

[Plural]

Ovechkin's goals come at the expense of his team. He can score 80 and it still doesn't make him valuable to his team. When will people get that throughout their heads.

Stamkos scores lots of goals too but plays a 200 foot game.

Well, he definitely has been valuable to his team in the past. As he was this year too. You make it sound like he is bringing negative net value to his team. I agree that this season he had too big flaws in his game. But he was still very integral player in his team. Ovechkin could be more valuable, yes. But he isn't dragging his team to the bottom all by himself.

 

[K Fleur]

Ovechkin's goals come at the expense of his team. He can score 80 and it still doesn't make him valuable to his team. When will people get that throughout their heads.

Stamkos scores lots of goals too but plays a 200 foot game.

Ovechkin's effort in his own zone definitely leaves something to be desired, but to say he isn't valuable to his team is just wrong.

The only cup Crosby has was a joke! The Caps and Detroit series were given to Pit. Not earned at all! Just like the lottery giving Pit. Malken and Crosby to keep a team in Pit.

By this logic Ovechkin must have been "given" to the Capitals then right?

 

[Big Phil]

I made a point on some other thread about Dale Hawerchuk, that he never got past the second round of the playoffs in (I think) 16 seasons until 1997 (by which time he was almost a role-player). Naturally, someone jumped all over me and said, "But he had to play against the Oilers... it wasn't fair!... his teams weren't good enough!", etc., etc.

It is obviously true that certain players are lucky in where they end up. But I think in the case of a player like Hawerchuk, who was the "go-to" #1 guy on his teams (two franchises) from 1981 to about 1992, and failed to advance past the second round in 16 years, we have to take some points off his overall evaluation for failure in playoff success.

At this point, I would say the same is true of Ovechkin, although 9 years isn't 16 years.

And I think Hawerchuk certainly does get flack for that. I think it hurts him in the long run. But Hawerchuk did play a 200 foot game and he wasn't on a team anywhere near Ovechkin's best. His Jets teams were nowhere near the Caps in 2010 for example. It was really just Hawerchuk on his own. So I think there is a bit of context with this one.

Best quote ever on this board!

So Trent Dilfer was better than Marino, right? When are people going to stop with the team awards nonsense when it comes to individual players? Unless you're willing to concede that Lidstrom was head and shoulders better than Bourque since he was instrumental to 4 cup wins and Ray was gifted one.

The only cup Crosby has was a joke! The Caps and Detroit series were given to Pit. Not earned at all! Just like the lottery giving Pit. Malken and Crosby to keep a team in Pit.

How was Ray gifted a Cup? He was the best defenseman on a Cup winner. As for the Pens how was the Caps and Wings series in 2009 given to them? They had to win Game 7 on the road both times. I guess I should take an anti-Crosby post from someone named "Capsfan38" into context though. There are criticisms of Crosby, but yours are unrealistic.

 

[Rhiessan71]

How was Ray gifted a Cup? He was the best defenseman on a Cup winner. As for the Pens how was the Caps and Wings series in 2009 given to them? They had to win Game 7 on the road both times. I guess I should take an anti-Crosby post from someone named "Capsfan38" into context though. There are criticisms of Crosby, but yours are unrealistic.

Pretty sure the clear Too Many Men penalty that wasn't called on the Pens, where a linesman was telling them to get one of their players off the ice is still a point of contention in that series.
No call and then a few minutes later the Wings got a penalty and tied the game on the PP. Then went on to win 4-2.