Better All-Time: Peter Forsberg Or Evgeni Malkin?

[SeanMoneyHands]

I don't get the Forsberg was way better physically than Malkin argument. Like Malkin is a tiny wallflower who just plays of the perimeter? I don't know. Malkin is a bigger player and is engaged in that aspect of the game as any high skill player in hockey right now.

My Best-Carey

Forsbergs playing style always tilted the ice for the Avs every time he was on the ice. He was pretty much Roenick on steroids. Peter had a knack for dishing out huge hits out of nowhere to change the momentum in a game. The bigger the game, the better he played.

 

[hamzarocks]

I have malkin slightly ahead but both are top 40 all time

Alternatively where do are Draisaitl and Mackinnon stack vs these two?

Both are looking like guys who could make the group of top 40 player all time

Bit premature as they are 28 and 27 but in 5 years time Mack and Draisaitl could be Malkin and Forsberg equivalent all time

 

[TheGoldenJet]

I really don't see how assisting a PP goal in a 3:7 loss with the team already trailing by five is a particularly impressive career highlight. Gonchar gave the puck to Malkin, he without movement returned it back to Gonchar who held it for a bit and shot it in. And then you use that example to criticize Russia's blue line as the weak spot when two of the three goals were scored as well as assisted by defensemen. Four different defensemen no less. And that "good Czech team" led by Marek Židlický finished 7th in the tournament.

It's funny that Forsberg's 1994 golden goal is one of the most iconic in the history of international hockey if it was so second rate. In 2006 besides assisting the golden goal he also assisted the opening goal of the semifinal and two more in the quarterfinal. They also had a well-balanced team for sure, but it was still Forsberg who took the front pages of the tabloids in Finland after the final.

Again you ignore the main two points:

1. Malkin has consistently performed better throughout their international careers as a whole.

2. Forsberg had a better team around him and so had more team success, while Malkin was the better international player.

Fine, then only the fully-fledged best-on-best in international tournaments:

Forsberg: 22gp 3g 17a 20pts
Malkin: 20gp 7g 11a 18pts

I would give Malkin the narrow edge here because of the goals/points ratio.

I thought HF agreed that the 2016 World Cup was not a real best-on-best.

Not that it changes your overall point, Malkin still has the edge if we drop that tournament anyway.

 

[Albatros]

Again you ignore the main two points:

1. Malkin has consistently performed better throughout their international careers as a whole.

2. Forsberg had a better team around him and so had more team success, while Malkin was the better international player.

More points in World Championship group stage games or what? Russia usually had very good teams at international tournaments, it's nonsense to pretend otherwise.

 

[Ben White]

Malkin---Forsberg

Hart Finalist: 3---1
Hart Top 10: 5---3
Top 10 Points finishes: 4---5
Top 10 P/GP finishes: 10---8
Top 10 Goals finishes: 3---0
1st All-Star Team: 3---3
Individual Awards: 6---3

The answer is Malkin.

You can’t count number of seasons having this and that when including a player who only had 3 seasons where he played 75+ games his entire career. On a game to game basis Forsberg was the slightly better player.

 

[Wings4Life]

You can’t count number of seasons having this and that when including a player who only had 3 seasons where he played 75+ games his entire career. On a game to game basis Forsberg was the slightly better player.

In his twenties, Forsberg played 4 full seasons (94-95, 95-96, 98-99, and 02-03).

Malkin in his twenties...also only played 4 full seasons.

In addition to those 4 seasons, Forsberg also had the opportunity to play a 72 game season and a 73 game season in his twenties...unlike Malkin.

So yeah, you can directly compare, since both players missed lots of time and opportunities due to injuries. And Malkin clearly comes out on top.

 

[Hippasus]

I thought HF agreed that the 2016 World Cup was not a real best-on-best.

Not that it changes your overall point, Malkin still has the edge if we drop that tournament anyway.

I reckon 2016 should count. Those were World Cup of Hockey games. Canada had names like Crosby, Stamkos, and Doughty. Sweden had Karlsson and Lundqvist. The U.S. had Kane, etc. I got this info from Wikipedia. Also, I just looked through this thread and see no reference to the international games of 2016.

 

[Wings4Life]

I reckon 2016 should count. Those were World Cup of Hockey games. Canada had names like Crosby, Stamkos, and Doughty. Sweden had Karlsson and Lunqvist. The U.S. had Kane, etc. I got this info from Wikipedia. Also, I just looked through this thread and see no reference to the international games of 2016.

I don't think games involving "Team Europe" or "Team North America" should count for best on best stats, so I am with the "let's scrap that tournament altogether" crowd if I cant pick and choose which individual games were best on best hockey.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Again you ignore the main two points:

1. Malkin has consistently performed better throughout their international careers as a whole.

2. Forsberg had a better team around him and so had more team success, while Malkin was the better international player.


I thought HF agreed that the 2016 World Cup was not a real best-on-best.

Not that it changes your overall point, Malkin still has the edge if we drop that tournament anyway.

Why wouldn't they be? The average talent level was higher than any Olympics

 

[TheStatican]

People always underestimate how many elite seasons Malkin's had. They look at his career stats and think he was just five; 07-08, 08-09, 11-12, 17-18, 19-20.

But really he has at least 4 more;
06-07, 07-08, 08-09, 11-12, 13-14, 14-15, 16-17, 17-18, 19-20


2006-07(1)
Calder winner. Malkin's rookie seasons was incredibly elite for a rookie, it already ranks as the 21st highest rookie scoring season of all time but every total ahead of his occurred in higher scoring seasons, often dramatically more. If adjusted to 2006-07 scoring levels it would rank as the 5th highest of all time and higher than Forsberg's season adjusted to the same number of games played(78).

Player​	Season​	GPG avg​	Adjusted PT​	PT's​
Teemu Selanne​	1992-93​	3.63​	107.3​	132​
Alex Ovechkin​	2005-06​	3.08​	101.5​	106​
Sidney Crosby​	2005-06​	3.08​	97.7​	102​
Mathew Barzal​	2017-18​	2.77​	90.5​	85​
Evgeni Malkin​	2006-07​	2.95​	85​	85​
Artemi Panarin​	2015-16​	2.71​	83.8​	77​
Peter Stastny​	1980-81​	3.84​	83.7​	109​
Joe Juneau​	1992-93​	3.63​	82.9​	102​
Bryan Trottier​	1975-76​	3.41​	82.2​	95​
Peter Forsberg	1994-95​	2.99​	49.3 (81.9)​	50 in 47​
Mike Bossy​	1977-78​	3.30​	81.3​	91​
Paul Stastny​	2006-07​	2.95​	78.0​	78​
Patrick Kane​	2007-08​	2.78​	76.4​	72​
Mario Lemieux​	1984-85​	3.89​	75.8​	100​
Dale Hawerchuk​	1981-82​	4.01​	75.8​	103​
Mikael Renberg​	1993-94​	3.24​	74.7​	82​
Marcel Dionne​	1971-72​	3.07​	74.0​	77​
Joe Nieuwendyk​	1987-88​	3.71​	73.2​	92​
Neal Broten​	1981-82​	4.01​	72.1​	98​
Alexei Yashin​	1993-94​	3.24​	71.9​	79​

2007-08(2)
Speaks for itself; 2nd in points, 4th in goals falling just a couple goals short of 50 second in Hart voting.

2008-09(3)
Speaks for itself; Scoring title, second in Hart voting.

2011-12(4)
Speaks for itself; Scoring title, second in goals with 50, MVP.

*2012-13
Could have been another elite year for him but with a strike shorten 48 games season there just wasn't enough time for him to recover from his rather serious injuries - people forget entirely that he had a concussion. First he when out and won gold in the world championships with an MVP performance and then during the strike he dominated a KHL league full of the best Russian NHL players. When the NHL finally restarted despite his usual slow start he was still 8th scoring and just 4 points behind Crosby for the league lead when he got concussed. Then later he also suffered an upper body injury. In a full 82 game season there would've been a lot more time for him to recover and his numbers would've looked far better.

2013-14(5)
Malkin was 3rd in points and ppg despite missing several games. He was hot on Crosby and Kane's tail for the scoring lead after a slow start he was absolutely on fire having scored; 31 points in his last 19 games, Crosby had 25 in 19 in the same period.

But then he injured his leg which took him out of action for a while. In the end despite missing 22 games he still finished in the top 15 in scoring! and second only to Crosby in PPG.


2014-15(6)
The following season he was once again up near the top in scoring. By late January he tied for 4th in points and 3rd in ppg just 5 behind the league leader Voracek, but having also played in 3 less games.

And all this despite playing with an injury that had been hampering him for weeks, which ultimately cost him 13 games and any chance at the scoring title.


2016-17(7)
Malkin was tied for 2nd in points and ppg, just 2 points behind McDavid but with 2 games in hand. Crosby was ahead in ppg, himself having missed a few games at the start of the season but it was actually Malkin who had been hotter prior to the injury; 37 in 25 vs 35 in 25

Who knows how this scoring race would have ended sans injury, McDavid would've at least had some more competition towards the end. And despite missing those 20 games he still ended up 14th in scoring, 3rd overall in ppg.


2017-18(8)
4th in goals and points, if he didn't miss 4 games he likely would've ended up in 2nd in both.


2019-20(9)
After dealing with an early season injury which cost him 11 games he was clearly one of the best players in the game;

 

[Thechozen1]

Anybody saying AINEC is out to lunch.

Both very dynamic players, but give me Forsberg. Guy was an absolute warrior who was as feared as any player. He’d beat you offensively, beat you defensively and beat you with physicality. A true triple threat.

 

[Felidae]

Malkin---Forsberg

Hart Finalist: 3---1
Hart Top 10: 5---3
Top 10 Points finishes: 4---5
Top 10 P/GP finishes: 10---8
Top 10 Goals finishes: 3---0
1st All-Star Team: 3---3
Individual Awards: 6---3

The answer is Malkin.

The evidence shows that Malkin has a slight lead overall offensively, and a clear one in goalscoring.

But It's a bit disingenuous to ignore the one aspect of the game that Forsberg clearly has over Malkin, two way play. Now let's compare their selke record..

Forsberg: 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 11th

Malkin: 30th

It's worth noting that his selke finishes happened in conjunction with his best offensive years too.

Now whether it's enough to bridge the gap offensively, well, that's a lot of what makes this comparison interesting and as close as it is in the first place.

 

[Deas]

The poll results are virtually dead even with close to 400 votes and plenty of people typing out arguments in favor of Forsberg, so I’m calling you out on labeling the thread as reeking of recency bias. Would be just as simple to flip it and claim you’ve stalled and are locked in a particular period of time (possibly your glory years).

This is a good point concerning nostalgia vs recency-bias. Both are common in my opinion. Some always exaggerate the current best players compared to older stars but also some exaggerate the status of the older names. The latter maybe due to who were best when you were in the age when you were more involved and in awe of the game, playing video games, trading hockey cards etc.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

What the results of this poll shows me, is how insanely overrated Forsberg is on HFboards.


What we need is a Forsberg vs Datsyuk poll for the site to come crashing down on itself.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Peter Forsberg is the most overrated player in HFBoards history.

 

[daver]

This comparison has Sakic vs. Yzerman or Bourque vs. Lidstrom i.e. very close with good arguments to be made for both of them

Forsberg is the better overall player

Malkin had the higher offensive upside but not as much in goalscoring as people want to make out when playoffs are factored in

Malkin, surprisingly, has the longevity (or at least played more seasons albiet partial ones) argument. Forsberg was destined to a partial career due to his playing style (like Lindros) while Malkin couldn't stay healthy for most of his career.

Forsberg was more of a #1C than Malkin was given who was the other Franchise C on their respective teams.

Gun to the head, a healthy Forsberg > healthy Malkin based solely on the difference in leadership. Not that Malkin is lacking in this regard but I think he was quite content to have Crosby wear that crown while Forsberg seems more of player who demands the crown.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

The evidence shows that Malkin has a slight lead overall offensively, and a clear one in goalscoring.

But It's a bit disingenuous to ignore the one aspect of the game that Forsberg clearly has over Malkin, two way play. Now let's compare their selke record..

Forsberg: 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 11th

Malkin: 30th

It's worth noting that his selke finishes happened in conjunction with his best offensive years too.

Now whether it's enough to bridge the gap offensively, well, that's a lot of what makes this comparison interesting and as close as it is in the first place.

MVP voting takes that into account, and Forsberg is behind in that category as well.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

The mythology of Forsberg on these boards is drastically different than the career I watched.

Yeah, he was strong on his skates, but he was nothing compared to Jagr.
His lauded 'defense' was that he played in front of an all-time great defense, with arguable the greatest goalie who ever lived.

And for a player so "strong" on his skates he sure dove a f***ton.



This narrative of Forsberg as some kind of Superman is pretty hilarious. He wasn't anywhere close to being the best player of his era. Yet he's being compared to someone who is on the cusp of being the best of THIS era?

He had ONE excellent run when he sat the entire regular season out, and the rest of the league was banged up with how brutal the hockey was in the DPE. And everyone is somehow extrapolating that over his entire career?

If he were anywhere as good as HFboard claims he is, he would have won several Harts and Art Rosses.




I'm also going to state the obvious:
Forsbergs Hart win was a pretty weak year, when the NHL was clearly in a transition.

Marcus Naslund was the frontrunner for 95% of the year but Forsberg pulled ahead of him in the scoring race the final games of the season.

Think of Corey Perry winning the Hart over Daniel Sedin cuz he scored more goals the final week. It was similar to that. Neither Corey Perry nor Daniel Sedin are going down as mythological hockey deities, but that's what Forsbergs ONE Hart win seems to be doing to his overrated legacy.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Forsberg is hilariously overrated on this site.

He has a total of 3 individual awards: a Calder, a Hart and an Art Ross. He had a 1.25 PPG (a bit higher than Malkin) but he only played 11 games after his age 33 season, which would have assuredly brought his numbers down. His peak season was worse than Malkin's peak season when you compare against competition, Malkin dominated in 2011-2012 relative to his peers at a far higher level than Forsberg did in 2002-2003.

There's literally nothing outside of fixating on 2-way play to say that Forsberg was better than Malkin.

 

[Midnight Judges]

It is as if playing past age 29 is worth less than nothing around here.

Some of you would hold players in higher regard if they simply quit at a young age so as to keep their career PPG/GPG higher, whereas in real life those contributions can be tremendous even if they are post peak.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Peter Forsberg is the most overrated player in HFBoards history.

He was great. Hardly better than Malkin though.

 

[Cup or Bust]

Both are great players. I like Forsberg's grit and defensive ability. I will take Forsberg but any team would be happy to have either.

 

[DJJones]

I'd draft Forsberg and hope to god modern medicine can help

 

[Toby91ca]

2019-20(9)
After dealing with an early season injury which cost him 11 games he was clearly one of the best players in the game;
View attachment 735618

This obviously isn't the full 2019/20 season....what are these stats? Just a period of time within that season (after Malkin came back from injury early in the season? I'm assuming that's the case based on the lead in, but it's a bit spot picking....I mean you can always take a player that is on a hot streak for 20 games and then show how he's the best in the world for that 20 game period.....I know this isn't the same thing, but still a bit of spot picking.

 

[blundluntman]

What the results of this poll shows me, is how insanely overrated Forsberg is on HFboards.


What we need is a Forsberg vs Datsyuk poll for the site to come crashing down on itself.

Yeah, it's almost like he was an elite 2 way hockey player with multiple top 10 selke finishes, a physical game and a Hart and Art Ross. It's absolutely insane that he's blowing Malkin out the water with a 2 vote lead. Hfboards strike again.