Best players MTL has developed since the Patrick Roy days

[Lafleurs Guy]

I don't know. Markov had a greater impact on the players around him than Subban.

Hey can I get a shout out for Mike Keane and Bobby Smith!

Bobby Smith was traded for.

 

[JianYang]

Subban is clearly the better talent. At no point in his career did Markov come close to what Subban was at his height.

Markov was very good for very long. Subban on the other hand has crashed the last two seasons. Too soon to see how his career will end but he was in the top 3 of NHL blueliners for a while and a serious Norris contender winning once. He was also deadly in the playoffs. At his best he'd be more comparable impact wise to Chelios than Markov.

Subban was certainly the flashier talent. No doubt about that. He has the norris trophy in his back pocket, which markov does not. Having said that, markov's 64 point season stands as the most productive year by a habs d-man since I believe Chelios in 89. Unfortunately, this is about the time markov's injury issues become really bad.

I think the best compliment I can give markov is that you could pair him with anyone from a talent like Subban, to a talent like Komisarek, and they all thrived with him.

Markov's game was elite, and he was able to maintain a very good level well into his 30s.

Subban is kind of at the stage of his career right now where markov was when he suffered his worst setbacks, which resulted in multiple reconstructive surgeries. Markov came back, and adapted without skipping much of a beat to remain a very good defenseman, which I think is a talent in itself.

Subban is having a tough time re-establishing himself at this stage of his career. In his prime, he had some of the best edgework in the league, but that's not something he can rely on now. There's time for Subban to have a renaissance, and get to that markov level, but the question is whether he can adapt. I'm skeptical because many of the physical tools that gave him the competitive advantage related to his skating typically do not age well.

Now again, this is not to say that I take issue with someone putting Subban ahead of markov. As I said before, I see that argument even though I have markov ahead. I just think they at least belong on the same platform.

 

[Doc McKenna]

Subban was certainly the flashier talent. No doubt about that. He has the norris trophy in his back pocket, which markov does not. Having said that, markov's 64 point season stands as the most productive year by a habs d-man since I believe Chelios in 89. Unfortunately, this is about the time markov's injury issues become really bad.

I think the best compliment I can give markov is that you could pair him with anyone from a talent like Subban, to a talent like Komisarek, and they all thrived with him.

Markov's game was elite, and he was able to maintain a very good level well into his 30s.

Subban is kind of at the stage of his career right now where markov was when he suffered his worst setbacks, which resulted in multiple reconstructive surgeries. Markov came back, and adapted without skipping much of a beat to remain a very good defenseman, which I think is a talent in itself.

Subban is having a tough time re-establishing himself at this stage of his career. In his prime, he had some of the best edgework in the league, but that's not something he can rely on now. There's time for Subban to have a renaissance, and get to that markov level, but the question is whether he can adapt. I'm skeptical because many of the physical tools that gave him the competitive advantage related to his skating typically do not age well.

Now again, this is not to say that I take issue with someone putting Subban ahead of markov. As I said before, I see that argument even though I have markov ahead. I just think they at least belong on the same platform.

Weber was traded straight for Subban. Markov was the better d even when playing with weber or Subban. Not just stat wise, but from a hockey iq level he was likely one of the best we have had in almost 40 years. Can't skate? Still able to stick work and position better than everyone else. Best outlet pass. No flash like Subban, but also rarely caught out of position the way Subban often was and Subban shouldn't have been there because his straight line skating wasn't good. His edge work was amazing, but he was slow to get back.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Subban was certainly the flashier talent. No doubt about that. He has the norris trophy in his back pocket, which markov does not. Having said that, markov's 64 point season stands as the most productive year by a habs d-man since I believe Chelios in 89. Unfortunately, this is about the time markov's injury issues become really bad.

I think the best compliment I can give markov is that you could pair him with anyone from a talent like Subban, to a talent like Komisarek, and they all thrived with him.

Markov's game was elite, and he was able to maintain a very good level well into his 30s.

Subban is kind of at the stage of his career right now where markov was when he suffered his worst setbacks, which resulted in multiple reconstructive surgeries. Markov came back, and adapted without skipping much of a beat to remain a very good defenseman, which I think is a talent in itself.

Subban is having a tough time re-establishing himself at this stage of his career. In his prime, he had some of the best edgework in the league, but that's not something he can rely on now. There's time for Subban to have a renaissance, and get to that markov level, but the question is whether he can adapt. I'm skeptical because many of the physical tools that gave him the competitive advantage related to his skating typically do not age well.

Now again, this is not to say that I take issue with someone putting Subban ahead of markov. As I said before, I see that argument even though I have markov ahead. I just think they at least belong on the same platform.

Markov was a very good talent. Subban was a great one. There is a clear cut difference between the two. Subban was a significantly better blueliner.

Where Markov may (or may not - we don't know yet) have the advantage is on longevity. Very good for very long but never among the absolute best at the position the way Subban was.

 

[salbutera]

Bobby Smith was traded for.

The guy drafted instead of Bossy...

 

[MasterD]

Markov was a very good talent. Subban was a great one. There is a clear cut difference between the two. Subban was a significantly better blueliner.

Where Markov may (or may not - we don't know yet) have the advantage is on longevity. Very good for very long but never among the absolute best at the position the way Subban was.

I am a HUGE Subban fan, but I have to disagree. I think at his peak, Markov was one of the best D in the league, top 3 maybe, top 10 for sure. He wasn't as flashy as Subban, but he had a much better overall game. Would play the PK, the PP, pass, shoot, cut passes, did it all. Also rarely made a stupid bonehead play.

Subban had a better slapper, faster skater and more physicality, but Markov was a MUCH better passer, better on the defensive side of the the game, and a lot steadier overall.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I am a HUGE Subban fan, but I have to disagree. I think at his peak, Markov was one of the best D in the league, top 3 maybe, top 10 for sure. He wasn't as flashy as Subban, but he had a much better overall game. Would play the PK, the PP, pass, shoot, cut passes, did it all. Also rarely made a stupid bonehead play.

Subban had a better slapper, faster skater and more physicality, but Markov was a MUCH better passer, better on the defensive side of the the game, and a lot steadier overall.

I don't think there was a point in his career where Markov was considered a top 3. He was never even nominated for a Norris and he disappeared in the playoffs. He was a really, really good player.

Subban was a HOF caliber player. His stats were insane. He was physical, stepped up in the biggest games and had the numbers to support a top 3 ranking in the league. And I'd say he was a much better defensive player than Markov was. Yes, he'd lose the puck with some big giveaways... no doubt about that. But it was outweighed by the way he'd get the puck out of his own end. I'd say he did more by the age of 30 than Markov had done in his career. Now, his last two seasons have sucked and maybe his back has finished him. I don't know but that's entirely possible. At that point you could look at their respective careers and compare them. But at the end of the day though, at his peak Subban was the better player.

 

[CanadienShark]

I have a ton of issues with your order, but the list overall seems to have most of the players I'd have.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Forgot Koivu. He'd be in that tier 2 group as well.

 

[the]

I really wish we could have seen Andrei Markov play full seasons between 2009-2012.

He was really heating up in 2008-2009 as one of the elite defensemen in the league and we got robbed of prime Markov. He could have been a top 5 D during that timeframe.

It’s really unbelievable how well he bounced back and stayed a solid player after all those injuries but it’s really a shame we never got to see “The General” play during his best years.

 

[Montreals Forum]

Wow what an interesting debate.
Markov/Subban had me thinking... I also have Markov ahead of Subban.
Markov had the pleasure of playing in the Lidstrom era, with Pronger, Steven's and Niedermayer...
Different league.. but in that time, Markov was given nothing to play with outside of Koivu (at times) and while it started improving in the Andre Savard era...
The habs had nothing close to a champion until much later.
Markov played through an entire generation worth of Canadiens hockey, and unfortunately it was the worst moments of our heralded franchise.

Subban came in when things were getting put together, and while he won a Norris, I honestly believed that Markov was the second smartest d-man of his generation, behind Lidstrom.
Subban gets mauled by the constant talk of not being a team player off the ice. Markov had his injuries... one was unfortunate, and robbed a player of his time. The other is preventable, but has been well written enough to have me believing it.

I guess it comes down to opinion, as both are great in their time... esp here... But there NEVER was a replacement for Markov. There still isn't.
Subban... well, at this point I take Weber. The guy has definitely calmed down the dressing room, and has become one hell of a Canadiens Captain. Our dressing room is gel. That's a testament to what we gained in that trade as an intangible.
While it has been rough, I dont blame Weber's play for it.
It all began for me, as soon as Bergevin did not replace Markov sufficiently. That's a testament to Markov's value. Our team hasn't been the same since.

We literally are on the precipice of moving on from our General.
That's why I believe his banner belongs in the roof, and he should have an open contract to join the head office for his years of dedication and service to us.

 

[JuJu Mobb]

LeClair - Koivu - Naslund
Richer - Carboneau - Gallagher
Pacioretty - Plekanec - Lemieux
Corson - Ribeiro/Eller/Danault - Ryder

Markov - Chelios
Desjardins - Subban
Svoboda - Odelein/Komisarek

Roy
Price

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Streit was like 26-27 when we drafted him i would say he was already fully developed in Europe. I don't know the drafting rule but like i think he could have signed UFA so why were we able to draft him lol?

To lock his rights early before anyone gets to sign him?

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I really wish we could have seen Andrei Markov play full seasons between 2009-2012.

He was really heating up in 2008-2009 as one of the elite defensemen in the league and we got robbed of prime Markov. He could have been a top 5 D during that timeframe.

It’s really unbelievable how well he bounced back and stayed a solid player after all those injuries but it’s really a shame we never got to see “The General” play during his best years.

We got robbed of both prime Koivu and prime Markov.

Both with the knees

Talk about bad luck

 

[SOLR]

Markov was a very good talent. Subban was a great one. There is a clear cut difference between the two. Subban was a significantly better blueliner.

Where Markov may (or may not - we don't know yet) have the advantage is on longevity. Very good for very long but never among the absolute best at the position the way Subban was.

Don't think that's right at all. In what way was Subban significantly better outside of speed? Markov was significantly better in terms of IQ, I think it's at best a wash in terms of overall effect.

Markov was in the absolute best, he finished top 6 in Norris voting twice, who was ahead? Lidstrom, Neids, Zubov, Pronger, etc. Are you serious in saying that Subban would have ranked better against these players? you have to be kidding me. Lidstrom and Neids were generational players in the league. Subban did not face one generational D, Makar might be the first since Neids-Lidstrom. Doughty/Karlsson while both franchise Ds, have not turned that corner.

We are talking about the same guy who couldn't get a regular shift on team Canada Olympic teams in his prime?

 

[SOLR]

LeClair - Koivu - Naslund
Richer - Carboneau - Gallagher
Pacioretty - Plekanec - Lemieux
Corson - Ribeiro/Eller/Danault - Ryder

Markov - Chelios
Desjardins - Subban
Svoboda - Odelein/Komisarek

Roy
Price

Ryder, Ribeiro and a 2nd for

 

[Vachon23]

Id say if you compare both players at their best, Komisarek was a bit better. The problem is, it was so short lived in Komisarek’s case. I liked Emelin, but a lot of the times the decisions he would make gave me giant migraines.

I prefer Komisarek too. I was always anxious when Emelin was on the ice that he would have a brain cramp that would cost a goal

 

[417]

Markov was a very good talent. Subban was a great one. There is a clear cut difference between the two. Subban was a significantly better blueliner.

Where Markov may (or may not - we don't know yet) have the advantage is on longevity. Very good for very long but never among the absolute best at the position the way Subban was.

Highly debatable...I think you're severely underrating Markov's talent level, especially pre-knee injuries.

Subban had his best career years in Montreal but his best statistical season, Markov was a key factor in.

 

[417]

Don't think that's right at all. In what way was Subban significantly better outside of speed? Markov was significantly better in terms of IQ, I think it's at best a wash in terms of overall effect.

Markov was in the absolute best, he finished top 6 in Norris voting twice, who was ahead? Lidstrom, Neids, Zubov, Pronger, etc. Are you serious in saying that Subban would have ranked better against these players? you have to be kidding me. Lidstrom and Neids were generational players in the league. Subban did not face one generational D, Makar might be the first since Neids-Lidstrom. Doughty/Karlsson while both franchise Ds, have not turned that corner.

We are talking about the same guy who couldn't get a regular shift on team Canada Olympic teams in his prime?

Agreed...there's no way Subban > Markov.

 

[MasterD]

Subban came in when things were getting put together, and while he won a Norris, I honestly believed that Markov was the second smartest d-man of his generation, behind Lidstrom.
Subban gets mauled by the constant talk of not being a team player off the ice. Markov had his injuries... one was unfortunate, and robbed a player of his time. The other is preventable, but has been well written enough to have me believing it.

I've said the same thing before. Lots of people disagree, but to me Markov was a Lidstron-lite. I would have loved to see Markov play with a team as skilled as the wings were back then.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Don't think that's right at all. In what way was Subban significantly better outside of speed? Markov was significantly better in terms of IQ, I think it's at best a wash in terms of overall effect.

Subban controlled the game in a way Markov simply could not. When Subban was on the ice the puck was either on his stick or in the opposing zone.

Markov was in the absolute best, he finished top 6 in Norris voting twice, who was ahead? Lidstrom, Neids, Zubov, Pronger, etc. Are you serious in saying that Subban would have ranked better against these players? you have to be kidding me. Lidstrom and Neids were generational players in the league. Subban did not face one generational D, Makar might be the first since Neids-Lidstrom. Doughty/Karlsson while both franchise Ds, have not turned that corner.

Markov had a long career and finished sixth twice. Subban's career isn't over and he's been top 3 on three separate occassions, winning once. And again, he's been a monster playoff player as well.

We are talking about the same guy who couldn't get a regular shift on team Canada Olympic teams in his prime?

Terrible argument. Shayne Corson made it over Steve Yzerman. It is an arbitrary decision made by old school guys who aren't necessarily picking the best players. Vlasic over Subban made zero sense. Just like Kunitz over Taylor Hall makes no sense.

 

[DAChampion]

I'd rate Subban and Markov as about equal.

Subban's peak years, 2012-2015 and 2017-2018 were incredible. He played at a higher level that Markov reached those years, particularly at even strength.

Markov was a much better power play player and had a longer peak though. I think that he'd be a borderline hall of famer if he hadn't missed much of what could have been his three best years. If a few things had gone differently we might be discussing jersey retirement. But ... They haven't.

 

[LeHab]

Streit was like 26-27 when we drafted him i would say he was already fully developed in Europe. I don't know the drafting rule but like i think he could have signed UFA so why were we able to draft him lol?

Not sure how Euro players rights were handled before 2005 CBA but now when a player is drafted, team retains exclusive rights for a few years. He was drafted in 2004 as NHL was heading for a lengthy lockout that everyone excepted. Betting a 9th round pick there was a very small price to pay and turned out such a great deal.

Yeah Streit was older but I'd still give Habs credit for turning him into a good NHLer. Went underrated his whole career or maybe I just had a soft spot for the guy. Kinda like Petry these days.

 

[Lebowski]

I am a HUGE Subban fan, but I have to disagree. I think at his peak, Markov was one of the best D in the league, top 3 maybe, top 10 for sure. He wasn't as flashy as Subban, but he had a much better overall game. Would play the PK, the PP, pass, shoot, cut passes, did it all. Also rarely made a stupid bonehead play.

Subban had a better slapper, faster skater and more physicality, but Markov was a MUCH better passer, better on the defensive side of the the game, and a lot steadier overall.

Subban did all that too...

I don’t have an issue with Markov being ranked ahead on account of his longevity, even though I personally disagree.

But if the argument is about peak or prime, I just can’t see how Markov is ahead of Subban. It’s nothing more than revisionist history in my opinion.

 

[SOLR]

Terrible argument. Shayne Corson made it over Steve Yzerman. It is an arbitrary decision made by old school guys who aren't necessarily picking the best players. Vlasic over Subban made zero sense. Just like Kunitz over Taylor Hall makes no sense.

I don't think it's a terrible argument at all. We are not talking about once we are talking about a lot of times. You can't just wash away 6-7 tournaments with one-time examples (fishing the Corson example is priceless! you had to go to a time before Subban to make a point that doesn't even refute the argument, absurd).

Really on this, you are completely wrong and the fact that you don't recognize the size of the sample even to this day exposes your bias clearly.

The reason why he's not a mainstay in these kinds of teams is that he is a flawed player with great athletic attributes. Now that his athleticism is going down, he's much less impactful (while Markov was still going strong at the same age) and his flaws are apparent.

Moreover, you keep comparing 35 years old Markov to 25 years Subban saying he was a "monster in the playoffs".

Again, Subban doesn't finish higher than 4th on the Norris in a league with Lidstrom, Zubov, Pronger and Neids. Doesn't matter what you think, he's never been in that league for more than 3-4 games.

Subban is not trusted by his peers, it comes down to that. Subban is about Subban. That's why he was traded away, twice. It's not because of "by old school guys who aren't necessarily picking the best players" that this is happening (and it keeps happening).

How many times actual good Ds are traded away, how many times Markov was traded?