Best NHLers to wear #16?

[Brent Burns Beard]

People often talk about the history of #4 and #9 in the NHL, but what about #16? There have been a lot of great players that wore the number. Who are people's favourites?

trevor linden ..

end of discussion.

dr

 

[kmad]

Trevor Linden has got to be the most popular, but he is certainly not the all-time best. I've got a Linden 16 jersey in my closet

 

[David Puddy]

Bobby Clarke is the best of those mentioned so far.

Followed by Henri Richard and then Dionne/Brett Hull.

You wouldn't be biased in any way, John the Flyers Fan?

The Pocket Rocket had better numbers when adjusted for the time in which he played.

 

[arnie]

11 cups and he's the only one with as many.

Yeah, I'm sure he did it all himself. Let's see, Phil Borque had one and Ray Borque had one. Gee, I didn't realize that Phil Borque was so great.

 

[mattihp]

Yeah, I'm sure he did it all himself. Let's see, Phil Borque had one and Ray Borque had one. Gee, I didn't realize that Phil Borque was so great.

The difference between winning one and winning eleven is quite huge.

 

[mcphee]

Yeah, I'm sure he did it all himself. Let's see, Phil Borque had one and Ray Borque had one. Gee, I didn't realize that Phil Borque was so great.

While the number of Cups doesn't entirely define a player, have you ever seen the Pocket Rocket ? I don't know how old you are,or whether you have access to old film but this guy was a great player. Phil Bourque didn't score the game tying and winning goals in a game 7 comeback[71] to win his cup did he ? Or score the overtime winner in game 6 [66] to win another . He did manage to contribute a bit.

 

[jiggs 10]

The Pocket Rocket, quite easily.

Marcel Dionne would be the 2nd best to ever wear that number, followed by Pat LaFontaine and then Brett Hull (for a few years). Although as was pointed out, BOBBY Hull wore 16 for 2 or 3 seasons before switching to 9, so HE'D be in the top 2 to EVER wear the number.

Trevor Linden?

 

[mcphee]

Good call on Bobby Hull, that was buried deep in the memory banks, I seem to have lost access to. Bobby Clarke does have to be up there too though. How can you compare Richard,Clarke,Lafontaine and Dionne though. They each brought something different to the table and were shaped by the circumstances of their respective teams. If I was in a pool, I'd take Dionne, for entertainment I'd go with Lafontaine, and I'd take the other 2 if I wanted to win at all costs.

 

[Chili]

While the number of Cups doesn't entirely define a player, have you ever seen the Pocket Rocket ? I don't know how old you are,or whether you have access to old film but this guy was a great player. Phil Bourque didn't score the game tying and winning goals in a game 7 comeback[71] to win his cup did he ? Or score the overtime winner in game 6 [66] to win another . He did manage to contribute a bit.

I remember game 7, 1971. The old Chicago Stadium. If not the best, certainly one of the best hockey atmospheres, with the organ and the way crowd were into games (I miss that old barn).

Henri had a great game in the lion's den when it meant the most.

Of course hockey is a team game and I seem to remember Henri saying he was in the right place at the right time but my memories of him are that of a great player, not Maurice's little brother.

 

[mcphee]

I remember game 7, 1971. The old Chicago Stadium. If not the best, certainly one of the best hockey atmospheres, with the organ and the way crowd were into games (I miss that old barn).

Henri had a great game in the lion's den when it meant the most.

Of course hockey is a team game and I seem to remember Henri saying he was in the right place at the right time but my memories of him are that of a great player, not Maurice's little brother.

It's funny, but he was never my favorite, neither was Beliveau, I always like the 3rd line guys like Ferguson or Jim Roberts or the d men like Terry Harper that made you wonder how they got there in the first place. Something about those guys always made them my favorites. I know that you can over romanticize players that you saw when you were a kid, players that you remember from when you were a little less cynical. I'm well aware that every generation improves from the rest and that just physical evolution would keep most of these guys from the league. When you can look back with a little perspective, certain things stand out in a player. Being brought up in Mtl., your team meant something to you. I always thought that the CH stood for pride and determination and persevering no matter what the odds. I'm sure Leaf fans can roll out their own stories as I'm sure every fan who has seen their team succeed can do the same. Henri Richard always stood out for me because looking back, he wore those qualities on his sleeve, every night. No one wore the CH or the C on the sweater with more pride. After all this rambling though, I fully understand that John the flyers fan can edit this and insert Clarke wherever I have rRchard and not be wrong. Same with a lot of guys. I understand what Linden has meant and still means to Canuck fans. That's a big part of the fun of being a fan, looking back at guys and appreciating that watching them brought you some fun.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

You wouldn't be biased in any way, John the Flyers Fan?

The Pocket Rocket had better numbers when adjusted for the time in which he played.

It's not just about numbers.

A quick illustration:

Richard won no major awards

Only three players in NHL history have more than Clarke's 3 Hart Trophies.

 

[Dr Love]

The Pocket Rocket had better numbers when adjusted for the time in which he played.

You have a metric for adjusted scoring from year to year? I'd like to see that.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

The Hockey News List:

23. Bobby Clarke

29. Henri Richard

38. Marcel Dionne

 

[jiggs 10]

The Hockey News List:

23. Bobby Clarke

29. Henri Richard

38. Marcel Dionne

But remember, this IS the Hockey News list, which is NOT the best I've seen!

Having grown up during the 60's & 70's, I can say Dionne was by far the better PLAYER, Clarke was the better leader, and Richard was the combination of the two. Honestly, I don't think Clarke should have won a 3rd Hart Trophy. He was a very valuable player for the Flyers at that time, but was he the most valuable player in the entire league THREE TIMES? I don't think so, but that's just my opinion.

I will say I didn't mean to leave Clarke off MY list of people to wear 16, but he would be #3 or 4 for me on that list. Just my opinion.

 

[Superfluous U]

You have a metric for adjusted scoring from year to year? I'd like to see that.

The only one I can recall seeing is Daryl Shilling's at The Hockey Project

 

[David Puddy]

You have a metric for adjusted scoring from year to year? I'd like to see that.

The only one I can recall seeing is Daryl Shilling's at The Hockey Project

That's the statistical annalysis I used. More specifically, it was Career Normalized Production Leaders. But I overlooked the Hall of Fame Debate, Part II, which ranks Clarke at #14 among players currently in the Hockey Hall of Fame.

It's not just about numbers.

A quick illustration:

Richard won no major awards

Only three players in NHL history have more than Clarke's 3 Hart Trophies.

That is a fine point. The Harts are worth a lot. I would like to know what other illustrations you might offer. If it's All-Star Teams, both were named to four end-of-season teams. However, Clarke was named to two First All-Star Teams, and Henri Richard was named to only one. That gives the edge to Clarke. Stanley Cups might be another illustration, which would be a staggering victory for Canadiens great.

But I think you have helped to turn me on this debate.

The Hockey News List:

23. Bobby Clarke

29. Henri Richard

38. Marcel Dionne

Here is the controversial ESPN Top 100 NHL Players:
32. Marcel Dionne

37. Henri Richard

41. Bob Clarke

This is the list that has Forsberg as the 17th best NHL player of all-time.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

That is a fine point. The Harts are worth a lot. I would like to know what other illustrations you might offer. If it's All-Star Teams, both were named to four end-of-season teams. However, Clarke was named to two First All-Star Teams, and Henri Richard was named to only one. That gives the edge to Clarke. Stanley Cups might be another illustration, which would be a staggering victory for Canadiens great.

But I think you have helped to turn me on this debate.

Here is the controversial ESPN Top 100 NHL Players:
32. Marcel Dionne

37. Henri Richard

41. Bob Clarke

This is the list that has Forsberg as the 17th best NHL player of all-time.

While THN's list isn't perfect, it't the best I've seen. The ESPN list is so bad it's laughable, I believe we had a big thread on it before in the Devils board.

My biggest contention is with Dionne. The guy played 18 years in the NHL and managed just 49 career playoff games. He never won a 7 game playoff series. Read that again, he NEVER won a 7 game playoff series.

I relaize his teams in L.A. were never the best, and I'm not asking him to win the Stanley Cup, but if you're truly a great player, you have to do something in the playoffs.

Name me one other player in the history of the NHL considered to be a great player, that never win anything more than a 1st round playoff series.

 

[bennysflyers16]

See Avatar !!!

 

[Hockey Outsider]

You have a metric for adjusted scoring from year to year? I'd like to see that.

There are actually several in existence. I've created one on my site, Daryl Shilling has one on his excellent website, and there are adjusted scoring metrics in "Total NHL" by Dan Diamond and "The Hockey Compendium" by Jeff Z Klein and Karl Eric-Reif.

Based on my system:

Bobby Clarke: 1,185 games, 324 goals, 743 assists, 1066 points, .90 pts/gp
Henri Richard: 1,417 games, 395 goals, 729 assists, 1123 points, .79 pts/gp

Clarke's peak value is 99.1 pts, Richard's peak value is 84.5 pts.

So based on offense alone, Richard scored slightly more points in his career due to longevity, but Clarke was better in his prime, and better per-game.

 

[(lone)Yashinfan#79]

#16 in your program


#1 in your heart


KELLY BUCHBERGER

now that's just good sarcasm...

 

[Jaysfanatic*]

Nikolai Borchevsky

 

[octopi]

I might have blinked and missed it, but I don't believe anybody's mentioned Vlad Konstantinov yet. And with that, I'd like to start "Best players ever to wear #19" thread. If any number, 19 is the one that doesn't get enough mention.

Joe Sakic, Steve Yzerman, and Markus Naslund all wear . Unfortunatly, so does Alexi Yashin << :devil:

 

[Vomiting Kermit*]

Mike York ^_^

 

[Chili]

I might have blinked and missed it, but I don't believe anybody's mentioned Vlad Konstantinov yet. And with that, I'd like to start "Best players ever to wear #19" thread. If any number, 19 is the one that doesn't get enough mention.

Joe Sakic, Steve Yzerman, and Markus Naslund all wear . Unfortunatly, so does Alexi Yashin << :devil:

That thread would include Larry Robinson and Bryan Trottier.