Best GM in the North Division?

[RogerR]

I disagree on all accounts. Dubas being out negotiated by Nylander's agent certainly had a bearing on how he was perceived by other agents. We know this since Agents voted overwhelmingly he was the easiest GM to get a great deal for their clients.

This is false. That's not what the poll was about.

And please explain how Nylander dropping his asking price and calling Dubas with 1 hour left in the deadline is Dubas being out-negotiated? That's ridiculous. 6.9 is a great deal for the Leafs.

IN no other market would 6.9 for that production and talent be seen as an issue.

 

[RogerR]

So why dont the leafs have multiple unmovable deals?

I would focus more on negotiation results than GM polls

And why does Lou have so many?

New York Islanders - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps


Yikes.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I disagree on all accounts. Dubas being out negotiated by Nylander's agent certainly had a bearing on how he was perceived by other agents. We know this since Agents voted overwhelmingly he was the easiest GM to get a great deal for their clients.

I will ask you this one more time. How was Dubas out negotiated by Nylander's agent when it was Nylander who told him to call Dubas 40:00 minutes before the 5:00 PM EST deadline on December 1, 2018 so he could sign a contract and play the in the 2018-19 Season.

 

[RogerR]

I will ask you this one more time. How was Dubas out negotiated by Nylander's agent when it was Nylander who told him to call Dubas 40:00 minutes before the 5:00 PM EST deadline on December 1, 2018 so he could sign a contract and play the in the 2018-19 Season.

That narrative has never made sense. You are correct. Nylander called him at the last hour. Not vice versa. And the deal looks great. 6.9 per for ages 22-28.
I can't believe I still hear in 2021 it's some overpay.
And it's no secret they were asking for more than 6.9 per earlier.

 

[LeafsNation75]

That narrative has never made sense. You are correct. Nylander called him at the last hour. Not vice versa. And the deal looks great. 6.9 per for ages 22-28.
I can't believe I still hear in 2021 it's some overpay.
And it's no secret they were asking for more than 6.9 per earlier.

It was either 30:00 or 40:00 minutes before the deadline when Nylander's agent called Dubas.

This story from TSN says it was at 4:30 PM.

With deal finally done, Nylander, Dubas breathe sighs of relief - TSN.ca

That’s not to say Nylander and Dubas both didn’t have their doubts whether or not the new contract would come together in time. To be eligible to play this season, the Leafs had to file Nylander’s signed contract with the NHL’s Central Registry by 5 p.m. ET on Saturday. It wasn’t until 4:30 p.m. that day Nylander made the call that would swing negotiations in the right direction.

While Nylander - who was Toronto’s eighth overall pick in the 2014 NHL Entry Draft - and his agent Lewis Gross had been in consistent communication with Dubas since late August, the parties were stuck in a stalemate over dollar figures. And contrary to media reports, Nylander said it was Gross, not his ex-NHLer dad Michael Nylander, calling the shots in communication with the Leafs’ front office.

Ultimately, Nylander’s camp came off what TSN Hockey Insiders Darren Dreger and Bob McKenzie said was originally an $8 million per season ask, and settled on something that wouldn’t hamper the Leafs in their upcoming negotiations with pending RFA’s Auston Matthews and Mitch Marner.

“Both sides were holding their ground and knew what they wanted and that’s why I think it took the time we took,” Nylander acknowledged. “[On Saturday], I was like ‘well, now we have to get something going here, deadline is coming up.’ I talked to the [NHLPA] and they said the contract should be done by 4:30, so that’s when I called. It was tight.”

And then there were an arduous few minutes that followed Nylander putting pen to paper around 4:52 p.m.

This story from Sportsnet says Nylander told his agent with 40:00 minutes left to call Dubas and get a deal done.

William Nylander called Maple Leafs in last 40 minutes to get deal done - Sportsnet.ca

“It was getting into the last 40 minutes before the deadline,” Nylander said of how it all came together. “I was talking to my agent and I said, ‘Let’s just call them’ and that phone call got everything done.”

 

[LeafsNation75]

I mean everyone quoting you is speaking relative to the discussion. Nobodies telling you their favorite ice cream flavor. Its all relevant. Nothings recycled.

And what do you mean? they did re sign Kapanen and Johnsson and traded them for assets to better utilize cap space.

And no i dont think Nylanders deal effected theirs. None of them are bad so whats there to complain about and dwell over?

It's funny how Dubas doesn't get the credit for re-signing both Kapanen and Johnsson which was officially announced on June 28, 2019.

Kapanen, Johnsson sign with Maple Leafs

However he gets blamed for having to trade Kapanen on August 25, 2020 and Johnsson gets traded on October 12, 2020 because of their salary cap situation.

Kapanen traded to Penguins from Maple Leafs as part of six-player deal

Johnsson traded to Devils by Maple Leafs

So you can't have it both ways.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I am not an Agent, but even I can smell blood in which how Nylander's agent worked Dubas in their negotiation. Actually I focus on results. I am not sure you do. 49.6% of the cap on 4 players. Almost half the team's cap is spent on 4 players. Zero are team discounts, none are good to their comparables, and all created the team's cap crunch where they had to unload good depth players. The Agents poll is just added confirmation to my posts.

As I said in my opening post, the jury's still out on Dubas. He still has a ways to go to be considered the best GM in the Canadian division. Making the playoffs this year and winning a rd would be a start. The North is probably the weakest division. Not sure if that would prove anything.

So how come Nylander's agent couldn't get him 8 years/$8.5 million AAV which is the reported contract he was looking for. If he was able to "smell blood" as you said why did Nylander even sit out and miss the Leafs first 28 games of the 2018-19 Season?

 

[RogerR]

It's funny how Dubas doesn't get the credit for re-signing both Kapanen and Johnsson which was officially announced on June 28, 2019.

Kapanen, Johnsson sign with Maple Leafs

However he gets blamed for having to trade Kapanen on August 25, 2020 and Johnsson gets traded on October 12, 2020 because of their salary cap situation.

Kapanen traded to Penguins from Maple Leafs as part of six-player deal

Johnsson traded to Devils by Maple Leafs

So you can't have it both ways.

That Kapanen trade looks fantastic. Look what Vegas got for Schmidt. Look what Dubas got for his 3rd line RW.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I mean everyone quoting you is speaking relative to the discussion. Nobodies telling you their favorite ice cream flavor. Its all relevant. Nothings recycled.

And what do you mean? they did re sign Kapanen and Johnsson and traded them for assets to better utilize cap space.

And no i dont think Nylanders deal effected theirs. None of them are bad so whats there to complain about and dwell over?

Before Dubas re-signed Kapanen and Johnsson there was some talk of them getting offer sheets if they became RFA's on July 1, 2019. However it was thought to have been in the range where they would only get 2nd and 3rd round picks. The reason for that was Patrick Marleau's contract which Dubas had to get rid of.

Instead 1 year later Dubas turns Kapanen into a 1st round pick and a prospect with Filip Hallander. He also got Joey Anderson in the Johnsson trade instead of a 2nd round pick which is still an unknown asset until it's used.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Treliving, but I don’t think any of them are top half of the league GM’s.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

This poll made me realize MB really isn't that bad.

No, he is. This division has brutal GM’s.

 

[Odie Cleghorn]

No, he is. This division has brutal GM’s.

He was. His most recent moves have all been good. The next one could be a big blunder though. Agreed that most of the division has terrible GM's. Holland and Dubas are yet to be determined. What Holland does with the cap space he will have after this season will tell the tale for him.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

He was. His most recent moves have all been good. The next one could be a big blunder though. Agreed that most of the division has terrible GM's. Holland and Dubas are yet to be determined. What Holland does with the cap space he will have after this season will tell the tale for him.

Credit where it’s due that his moves have worked 10 games in this season, but I don’t instantly think his track record has changed because his team has started well this season.

 

[CatchyTune]

I am not an Agent, but even I can smell blood in which how Nylander's agent worked Dubas in their negotiation. Actually I focus on results. I am not sure you do. 49.6% of the cap on 4 players. Almost half the team's cap is spent on 4 players. Zero are team discounts, none are good to their comparables, and all created the team's cap crunch where they had to unload good depth players. The Agents poll is just added confirmation to my posts.

As I said in my opening post, the jury's still out on Dubas. He still has a ways to go to be considered the best GM in the Canadian division. Making the playoffs this year and winning a rd would be a start. The North is probably the weakest division. Not sure if that would prove anything.

Do you not find it a little odd, that you (a non-leaf fan) is in here complaining about Dubas' moves, and the people defending them are leaf fans? the majority of the fanbase doesnt have much of a problem with his moves.

Growing up watching many crappy leaf teams with no star players, i would never have guessed once we finally become good with multiple elite players, its money that gets picked on. Money towards young superstars like Auston Matthews and Mitch Marner. Having being ecstatic winning Matthews' draft lottery, i also would never have guessed sub-3 years later people are whining about his contract. he is one of the few that gets a black cheque from me.

also aside from the leafs, isnt this about Dubas? he hasnt signed 1 bad deal while in Toronto.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Do you not find it a little odd, that you (a non-leaf fan) is in here complaining about Dubas' moves, and the people defending them are leaf fans? the majority of the fanbase doesnt have much of a problem with his moves.

Growing up watching many crappy leaf teams with no star players, i would never have guessed once we finally become good with multiple elite players, its money that gets picked on. Money towards young superstars like Auston Matthews and Mitch Marner. Having being ecstatic winning Matthews' draft lottery, i also would never have guessed sub-3 years later people are whining about his contract. he is one of the few that gets a black cheque from me.

also aside from the leafs, isnt this about Dubas? he hasnt signed 1 bad deal while in Toronto.

No, I don't find it one bit odd commenting about the best GM's in the North Division in a thread specifically dedicated on it. This is a Main board message board, and I am a hockey fan, so not one bit. You do seem to be going out of your way to defend Dubas, not sure why the insecurity? It's only one poster's opinion, mine, in which he has a lot to prove. Missed the playoffs last year, negotiated himself into a cap crunch by allocating almost 50% of his capspace to 4 fwds, mistakes in player evaluations. IE. Ceci, Barrie, Sparks, Hutchinson, Kerfoot. I don't think he's done a great job given he inherited a 105 pt team with over 28M of capspace to miss the playoffs last season, but I am willing to see if he can improve on that this year. Given it is a 7 team division, 1 less than other divisions, and arguably the weakest. He should atleast meet that low bar of making the playoffs this season.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Do you not find it a little odd, that you (a non-leaf fan) is in here complaining about Dubas' moves, and the people defending them are leaf fans? the majority of the fanbase doesnt have much of a problem with his moves.

Growing up watching many crappy leaf teams with no star players, i would never have guessed once we finally become good with multiple elite players, its money that gets picked on. Money towards young superstars like Auston Matthews and Mitch Marner. Having being ecstatic winning Matthews' draft lottery, i also would never have guessed sub-3 years later people are whining about his contract. he is one of the few that gets a black cheque from me.

also aside from the leafs, isnt this about Dubas? he hasnt signed 1 bad deal while in Toronto.

The only moves where Dubas gets blame from Leafs fans was when he choose to keep Garett Sparks instead of Curtis McElhinney and eventually trading for Michael Huthcinson.

Now the only reason he traded for Michael Hutchinson from the Panthers in December 2018 is because Frederik Andersen was injured and Sparks was forced to play as the #1 Goalie.

However at least Dubas realized those mistakes and that's why he traded for Jack Campbell who's became a great #2 Goalie behind Andersen.

 

[CatchyTune]

No, I don't find it one bit odd commenting about the best GM's in the North Division in a thread specifically dedicated on it. This is a Main board message board, and I am a hockey fan, so not one bit. You do seem to be going out of your way to defend Dubas, not sure why the insecurity? It's only one poster's opinion, mine, in which he has a lot to prove. Missed the playoffs last year, negotiated himself into a cap crunch by allocating almost 50% of his capspace to 4 fwds, mistakes in player evaluations. IE. Ceci, Barrie, Sparks, Hutchinson, Kerfoot. I don't think he's done a great job given he inherited a 105 pt team with over 28M of capspace to miss the playoffs last season, but I am willing to see if he can improve on that this year. Given it is a 7 team division, 1 less than other divisions, and arguably the weakest. He should atleast meet that low bar of making the playoffs this season.

You can think whatever you want, but these arent bad deals. Dubas has had a better Toronto tenure than Lou.

Barrie is the only real miss in what you listed. Ceci was taken on to dump Zaitsev (Lou's bad contract). Nothing wrong with Kerfoot lol. And Hutchinson isnt a miss if he is still here

the 28 million in cap space is very misleading. all of Matthews/Marner/Nylander were on ELC's. thats $28 million alone. And he also added John Tavares on top of that? Well done Kyle.

i do agree with the last part. expectations have to be tempered. the goal this year is to win a playoff round and build from there. if there is no success, changes could be made. good thing everyone under contract is a positive value asset that can be used in a trade to help improve the team

 

[CatchyTune]

The only moves where Dubas gets blame from Leafs fans was when he choose to keep Garett Sparks instead of Curtis McElhinney and eventually trading for Michael Huthcinson.

Now the only reason he traded for Michael Hutchinson from the Panthers in December 2018 is because Frederik Andersen was injured and Sparks was forced to play as the #1 Goalie.

However at least Dubas realized those mistakes and that's why he traded for Jack Campbell who's became a great #2 Goalie behind Andersen.

and if the worst thing you've done in your GM tenure is mishandling a backup goalie situation, i think you've done alright

 

[LeafsNation75]

No, I don't find it one bit odd commenting about the best GM's in the North Division in a thread specifically dedicated on it. This is a Main board message board, and I am a hockey fan, so not one bit. You do seem to be going out of your way to defend Dubas, not sure why the insecurity? It's only one poster's opinion, mine, in which he has a lot to prove. Missed the playoffs last year, negotiated himself into a cap crunch by allocating almost 50% of his capspace to 4 fwds, mistakes in player evaluations. IE. Ceci, Barrie, Sparks, Hutchinson, Kerfoot. I don't think he's done a great job given he inherited a 105 pt team with over 28M of capspace to miss the playoffs last season, but I am willing to see if he can improve on that this year. Given it is a 7 team division, 1 less than other divisions, and arguably the weakest. He should atleast meet that low bar of making the playoffs this season.

Leafs fans never said Cody Ceci was going to turn into a Norris Trophy winning Defenseman, however can you not realize he was only acquired because Dubas got rid of Nikita Zaitsev and the remaining 5 years he had on his contract at $4.5 millioin. So the way I see it Ceci was a 1 year temporary solution and Dubas did not re-sign him.

As for Barrie when the trade was made it looked like a good idea, however with the benefit of hindsight based on his play last year it didn't work out the way Dubas or Leafs fans had wanted. So that's why he went out and signed TJ Brodie to replace Barrie.

 

[LeafsNation75]

You can think whatever you want, but these arent bad deals. Dubas has had a better Toronto tenure than Lou.

Barrie is the only real miss in what you listed. Ceci was taken on to dump Zaitsev (Lou's bad contract). Nothing wrong with Kerfoot lol. And Hutchinson isnt a miss if he is still here

the 28 million in cap space is very misleading. all of Matthews/Marner/Nylander were on ELC's. thats $28 million alone. And he also added John Tavares on top of that? Well done Kyle.

i do agree with the last part. expectations have to be tempered. the goal this year is to win a playoff round and build from there. if there is no success, changes could be made. good thing everyone under contract is a positive value asset that can be used in a trade to help improve the team

It's funny how people forget that before Lamoriello had claimed Curtis McElhinney off waivers, he originally signed Jhonas Enroth as their #2 Goalie behind Frederik Andersen.

Enroth's record with Toronto was 0-3-1 with a 3.94 GAA. He was eventually sent to the Marlies and later on got traded to Anaheim.

So while Dubas deserves blame for what he did with their #2 Goalies before getting Jack Campbell, let's not pretend that Lamoriello also made a mistake with that same position.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Ceci was taken on to dump Zaitsev (Lou's bad contract).

But why sign him to more than his QO ?

Afraid of arbitration.

What is there to be afraid of ?

If he gets too much, you let him go.

Big loss.

 

[wonton15]

Not Jim Benning

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

So while Dubas deserves blame for what he did with their #2 Goalies before getting Jack Campbell, let's not pretend that Lamoriello also made a mistake with that same position.

I don't think that is the message you wanted to convey.

But knows ?

 

[CatchyTune]

But why sign him to more than his QO ?

Afraid of arbitration.

What is there to be afraid of ?

If he gets too much, you let him go.

Big loss.

i forget what exactly happened there, but i think it was a strange situation where he was already qualified and there was no backing out of arbitration.

either way, it was a 1 year deal and he is gone now. i dont know what the fuss is over Ceci.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

i forget what exactly happened there, but i think it was a strange situation where he was already qualified and there was no backing out of arbitration.

either way, it was a 1 year deal and he is gone now. i dont know what the fuss is over Ceci.

I already wrote that he had a QO.

Arbitration over what he signed for would have been helpful for the Leafs as they could walk away... and not have a bad D on the team.