Best Duo in modern NHL History?

[tjcurrie]

He scored more in his first season without Gretzky than in his last season with Gretzky, until they reunited in Los Angeles. His playmaking ability became quite notable after Gretzky, as before Gretzky had the puck most of the time and it wasn't manifested as much. Furthermore, he spent significant time with Acton and Lamb as well as Carson, and one could argue that the revolving door of centers he had to play with wasn't exactly the ideal situation for him. After all, he did slow down considerably after a start that had him just behind pace of the four 150 point players that season.



I think it's more likely that Kurri's ceiling was higher than his 1988-89 season indicates, as he wasn't exactly in peak form his two last years with Gretzky in Edmonton. He didn't break 100 points the season before Gretzky was traded. His best seasons came right in the middle of the decade.

How wasn't he in peak form ? What was he 28-30 ? Face it, he played with a guy who was clearly head and shoulders better than him and outscored him by 70+ points per season. Nothin he ever did without Gretzky shows that he could do better than that 102 points and it's pretty darn realistic to expect that's what he would have been without him. You don't think that playing with the greatest offensive player ever would boost your production ? Dave Lumley went on a 12 game goal streak in I believe '81 when he was placed with Gretzky briefly and when Gretzky went to L.A., Bernie Nicholls went from a ppg player to 70 goals and 150 ridiculous points. So c'man. And it's not even a knock against Kurri it's just stating the obvious. Without Gretzky, he's more than likely not a 50-70 goal and 120-130 point guy, but rather a guy that averages 40-45 goals and 90 points or so, with a few 100 point seasons in the mix throughout the decade.

 

[poise]

How wasn't he in peak form ? What was he 28-30 ? Face it, he played with a guy who was clearly head and shoulders better than him and outscored him by 70+ points per season. Nothin he ever did without Gretzky shows that he could do better than that 102 points and it's pretty darn realistic to expect that's what he would have been without him. You don't think that playing with the greatest offensive player ever would boost your production ? Dave Lumley went on a 12 game goal streak in I believe '81 when he was placed with Gretzky briefly and when Gretzky went to L.A., Bernie Nicholls went from a ppg player to 70 goals and 150 ridiculous points. So c'man. And it's not even a knock against Kurri it's just stating the obvious. Without Gretzky, he's more than likely not a 50-70 goal and 120-130 point guy, but rather a guy that averages 40-45 goals and 90 points or so, with a few 100 point seasons in the mix throughout the decade.

28-30 might be prime years for players nowadays, though I doubt this range is correct, even today, but generally, they weren't for players in Kurri's time, as they peaked, declined, and retired earlier. Besides, for Kurri himself, after getting 68 goals and 131 points in 1985-86, his numbers dropped for two consecutive years with Gretzky. So I think it's pretty reasonable he was past his peak.

I don't think anybody denies Gretzky was insanely better than Kurri or the catalyst for that duo. Nor do I think that Kurri was going to score at a GPG pace without Gretzky. But I do think your ranges for Kurri's peak production are too low. 35 goals and 85 points on the low end?

I think Kurri would definitely be able to score over 100 points regularly in a full season without Gretzky. 50 goals without Gretzky is very likely too when he was at his best. Would he be at the pace that he was with Gretzky? No. 71 goals in 73 games? No. But then again, Kurri could have scored even more if he didn't serve as the defensive conscience of that pair. His goal scoring would suffer the most, but I think his assist totals go up, especially if he is moved to center, which is very likely.

Nicholls was more than just a PPG player, he had even hit 100 without Gretzky. And he was playing behind Dionne too.

 

[tjcurrie]

28-30 might be prime years for players nowadays, though I doubt this range is correct, even today, but generally, they weren't for players in Kurri's time, as they peaked, declined, and retired earlier. Besides, for Kurri himself, after getting 68 goals and 131 points in 1985-86, his numbers dropped for two consecutive years with Gretzky. So I think it's pretty reasonable he was past his peak.

I don't think anybody denies Gretzky was insanely better than Kurri or the catalyst for that duo. Nor do I think that Kurri was going to score at a GPG pace without Gretzky. But I do think your ranges for Kurri's peak production are too low. 35 goals and 85 points on the low end?

I think Kurri would definitely be able to score over 100 points regularly in a full season without Gretzky. 50 goals without Gretzky is very likely too when he was at his best. Would he be at the pace that he was with Gretzky? No. 71 goals in 73 games? No. But then again, Kurri could have scored even more if he didn't serve as the defensive conscience of that pair. His goal scoring would suffer the most, but I think his assist totals go up, especially if he is moved to center, which is very likely.

Nicholls was more than just a PPG player, he had even hit 100 without Gretzky. And he was playing behind Dionne too.

35 goals and 85 points may sound a little low, but realistically if you look at a guy like Mike Gartner, he had some seasons in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and had the one 100 point season. How much better offensively was Kurri ? If at all ? It's impossible to say a number, but I dont think it's unrealistic to give Kurri a couple 35-40 goal and 85 point seasons through his prime without Gretzky.

I think that even though he was defensive, playing with Gretzky greatly outweighs that. The reason he could be so defensive was for the fact that he was playing with Gretzky. Imagine if he was a Whaler or a Maple Leaf etc etc back then, pick a team. If he's going to be a defensive player, he's sacrificing a ton of points. With Gretzky, he still benefited greatly.

I dont think he racks up more assists either. All you really had to do was touch the puck on a lot of plays. Heck even Grant Fuhr had 14 assists in 83-84.

As for Nicholls, he had the one 100 point season, but if players are dropping off earlier back then how the heck does he nearly double his points avg in one season at age 27 ? Shouldnt he be starting to fall off ? Just doing quick math, he averaged about 35-40 goals and 85 to 90 points in 80 games up until that season. All of a sudden 70 goals and 150 points ?

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

35 goals and 85 points may sound a little low, but realistically if you look at a guy like Mike Gartner, he had some seasons in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and had the one 100 point season. How much better offensively was Kurri ? If at all ? It's impossible to say a number, but I dont think it's unrealistic to give Kurri a couple 35-40 goal and 85 point seasons through his prime without Gretzky.

1988-89 season Kurri scored 44G - 58A - 102Pts in 76 games after Gretzky left Edmonton

 

[VanIslander]

Carbonneau-Keane on the PK

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Carbonneau-Keane on the PK

Stevens - Daneyko too. Madden - Pandolfo wasn't bad either.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

1987-2011 - Regular Season - Skater - Point Pairs - Team Goals Where Both Players Record a Point​

So... The Sedins then. Most times atop the league and the biggest single season.

 

[tjcurrie]

1988-89 season Kurri scored 44G - 58A - 102Pts in 76 games after Gretzky left Edmonton

Ya I know. We already brought that up. I said that to me would have been about Kurri's peak. I was saying that he would have been consistently getting anywhere from 85 to 100 or so points and 40 goals about. 35-85 was the low end, and I think 45 goals and 105 points or so would have been his high end. If he would have scored like 55 goals and 120 points in that 88-89 season then it would obviously not give me a leg to stand on.

 

[begbeee]

Wouldnt be Kurri without Gretzky and on less stacked team just slightly better version of Thomas Steen?

 

[shazariahl]

I would easily put Robinson-Savard ahead of a lot of duos being mentionned left and right when these questions pop off.

In modern hockey Gretzky-Kurri and probably Bossy-trottier are ahead , but I'm not sure what other duo could be put ahead of the greatest pairing of all-time that accomplished the more together and that had chemistry that just worked like a charm.

If you built a team , who would you pick between Robinson-Savard and Trottier-Bossy? Sure Trottier and Bossy are better player than Savard , but a 1st pairing plays a lot more in a game and is arguably more important to winning. ( debatable )

edit: damn TDMM beat me to the punch. btw the reason Lemieux-Jagr doesn't have that much support is just because they didn't exactly accomplish that much playing together , because , well , they didn't play together that much.If not , this is clearly the best duo , the gap between Jagr and Kurri is higher than Gretzky Lemieux imo.

Agreed, Jagr is better than Kurri by more than Gretzky is better than Lemieux. That being said though, Gretzky/Kurri were always more than the sum or their parts, IMO. It was a case where Kurri's game was elevated to superstar levels (70 goals) and Gretzky's game actually seemed to improve in ways too. I always thought he was more defensively responsible when he had Kurri - maybe Kurri was a good influence on him in that regard. Both Wayne's Selke nominations came while playing with Kurri on his wing. Needless to say, Wayne's offense was the same no matter who he played with. On paper the Lemieux-Jagr team should be better than Gretzky-Kurri, but in reality I'd say they were about even. Given how much longer Gretzky and Kurri were together though, I think they end up with a very clear advantage.

 

[WarriorOfGandhi]

What would top D-pairings look like?

Robinson-Savard
Potvtin-? (Jonsson?)
Lidstrom-Chelios
Bourque-Blake
Coffey-Lowe
Pronger-Niedermayer
Chara-Redden (back when Redden wasn't terrible)
Weber-Suter

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

What would top D-pairings look like?

Robinson-Savard
Potvtin-? (Jonsson?)
Lidstrom-Chelios
Bourque-Blake
Coffey-Lowe
Pronger-Niedermayer
Chara-Redden (back when Redden wasn't terrible)
Weber-Suter

Of those pairings, I think only Robinson-Savard and Weber-Suter regularly play(ed) together. Lidstrom and Chelios were PK partners and Bourque-Blake and Pronger-Niedermayer PP partners.

 

[Bud13]

Wouldnt be Kurri without Gretzky and on less stacked team just slightly better version of Thomas Steen?

That's a good one

 

[crobro]

35 goals and 85 points may sound a little low, but realistically if you look at a guy like Mike Gartner, he had some seasons in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and had the one 100 point season. How much better offensively was Kurri ? If at all ? It's impossible to say a number, but I dont think it's unrealistic to give Kurri a couple 35-40 goal and 85 point seasons through his prime without Gretzky.

I think that even though he was defensive, playing with Gretzky greatly outweighs that. The reason he could be so defensive was for the fact that he was playing with Gretzky. Imagine if he was a Whaler or a Maple Leaf etc etc back then, pick a team. If he's going to be a defensive player, he's sacrificing a ton of points. With Gretzky, he still benefited greatly.

I dont think he racks up more assists either. All you really had to do was touch the puck on a lot of plays. Heck even Grant Fuhr had 14 assists in 83-84.

As for Nicholls, he had the one 100 point season, but if players are dropping off earlier back then how the heck does he nearly double his points avg in one season at age 27 ? Shouldnt he be starting to fall off ? Just doing quick math, he averaged about 35-40 goals and 85 to 90 points in 80 games up until that season. All of a sudden 70 goals and 150 points ?

dint luc robataille have a lot to do with nicholls 150 points.they were both on the kings second line that year.

 

[KingGallagherXI]

Other than Gretzky - Kurri and Lemieux - Jagr, I'd say Lindros - Leclair was one of the most dominant and feared duos ever in their peaks.

 

[Murky]

How wasn't he in peak form ? What was he 28-30 ? Face it, he played with a guy who was clearly head and shoulders better than him and outscored him by 70+ points per season. Nothin he ever did without Gretzky shows that he could do better than that 102 points and it's pretty darn realistic to expect that's what he would have been without him. You don't think that playing with the greatest offensive player ever would boost your production ? Dave Lumley went on a 12 game goal streak in I believe '81 when he was placed with Gretzky briefly and when Gretzky went to L.A., Bernie Nicholls went from a ppg player to 70 goals and 150 ridiculous points. So c'man. And it's not even a knock against Kurri it's just stating the obvious. Without Gretzky, he's more than likely not a 50-70 goal and 120-130 point guy, but rather a guy that averages 40-45 goals and 90 points or so, with a few 100 point seasons in the mix throughout the decade.

Are you on some kind of crusade against Kurri in each thread he is mentioned?

Kurri was more than his regular season scoring stats. He was a playoff record breaker and a defensive forward that scored a huge number of goals. Six times voted in top 10 for Selke when it was still silverware for defensive forwards and not for two way forwards or a Mini-Hart it turned into later on. Not too shabby since he was also in TOP 10 in scoring during those seasons. Kurri's runner up Ron Francis managed this four times and Selke was not the same then.

As for the late 80's Kurri's speed was taken away by his groin and his shot suffered because of his shoulder. The age has nothing to do with either of those but obviously simply looking at the numbers he was indeed in his prime and completely healthy etc. Comparing Kurri to the likes of Gartner is just icing on the cake. So while you say you are stating the obvious and you have nothing against the man, I will say that you are simply speculating.

Of the Edmonton duos I enjoyed Messier and Anderson more, by the way. I know it is perverse but I have always had a hard on for great second lines.

However, a non-objective homer pick of Lafleur and Shutt from me simply because at the time I was in my teens and they were/are my heroes.

 

[Slapshooter]

Gretzky-Kurri had a perfect chemistry. Kurri did not only finnish Wayne's passes, but handled a lot of defensive responsibilites.

I don't much like Sedins, but when it's all said and done, they are likely mentioned as the 2nd best duo after Gretzky-Kurri. Sedin twins seem like robots when they are together. (And they are always together.)

Lemieux and Jagr were not that great together on even strenght, as they both loved the puck as much. Pittsburgh was IMO more dangeorus when Lemieux and Jagr were on separate lines. Power play was a different story, though. Lemieux-Jagr wiped out any opposition in a PP.

 

[Seanconn*]

Gretzky-Kurri had a perfect chemistry. Kurri did not only finnish Wayne's passes, but handled a lot of defensive responsibilites.

I don't much like Sedins, but when it's all said and done, they are likely mentioned as the 2nd best duo after Gretzky-Kurri. Sedin twins seem like robots when they are together. (And they are always together.)

Lemieux and Jagr were not that great together on even strenght, as they both loved the puck as much. Pittsburgh was IMO more dangeorus when Lemieux and Jagr were on separate lines. Power play was a different story, though. Lemieux-Jagr wiped out any opposition in a PP.

Sedin Twins aren't even the best brothers. let alone , best duo... I just don't think they have proved themselves nearly enough yet.

 

[jason9090spezza]

If it was Duo, Gretzky-Kurri/Selanne-Kariya and some others would be pretty up there.

If it's trio, than it's Legion of Doom (Lindros/Leclair/Renberg) or CASH line (Spezza/Heatley/Alfie). Both lines pretty much dominated the league in terms of scoring in their respective era's. Legion of Doom had high scoring AND intimidation/physicality that would outmatch most of the oponents, while CASH line was only pure offense but if it wasn't for injuries and other problems, that line would have all reached the 100 point plateau for probably two straight seasons (maybe not but DEFINATELY late 90's). All members of that line got chosen to participate in the all-star game (I think Heatley got injured and replaced), first time since the "triple crown line" did it back in their days. SPEZZA had about 1.2-1.3 point-per-game average during his hey-days while Heatley and Alfie had 1.1-1.2 point-per-game. I don't think there are many lines that have assembled three players that has had that much point-per-game average consistently over the course of 2-3 seasons.

And both lines pretty much carried the team to the finals. Did they got beaten, yes. But it was against a really stacked team. Detroit had a dynasty roster, while Anaheim had two future hall of fame blue liners, and Getzlaf/Perry were 2nd/3rd line players back in the days so yeah, it they were good.

The fact that Lindros dominated the playoffs in scoring, and Spezza/Heatley/Alfie all tied for playoff leaders in scoring just proves how dominant they were in their "hey-days". Was short lived due to mismanagement in their respective organization which is very unfortunate.

 

[Copmuter*]

Lindros and LeClair deserve a mention here

 

[The G Man]

Gretzky-Kurri
Lemieux-Jagr
Esposito-Orr
Trottier-Bossy
LaFleur-Shutt
Dionne-Simmer
Messier-Anderson
Lindros-LeClair
Sittler-McDonald
P Stastny - A Stastny
Clarke-Leach

 

[crobro]

Dionne simmer

 

[CpatainCanuck]

Sedin Twins aren't even the best brothers. let alone , best duo... I just don't think they have proved themselves nearly enough yet.

Haha, please name the brothers who while playing together on the same line accumulated a resume equivalent to 2 Art Ross Trophies, 1 Hart, 1 Lindsay, 3 First Team and 1 Second Team allstar selections.









I'm waiting....

 

[CpatainCanuck]

Gretzky-Kurri
Lemieux-Jagr
Esposito-Orr
Trottier-Bossy
LaFleur-Shutt
Dionne-Simmer
Messier-Anderson
Lindros-LeClair
Sittler-McDonald
P Stastny - A Stastny
Clarke-Leach

I think this is the actual answer. I just looked up the stats: Esposito/Orr finished 1st and 2nd in nhl scoring in 4 nhl seasons, and 1st and 3rd in another. That kind of offensive dominance in a duo is unmatched in nhl history...and one of those players was a defenceman!


Another duo that hasn't even mentioned is Naslund-Bertuzzi. For a few years they were the world's best power forward and the world's best wrist shot on the same line. Finished 2/3 in scoring and 2/5 in scoring in consecutive years.

 

[Plural]

Gretzky-Kurri
Lemieux-Jagr
Esposito-Orr
Trottier-Bossy
Selanne-Kariya
LaFleur-Shutt
Dionne-Simmer
Messier-Anderson
Lindros-LeClair
Sittler-McDonald
P Stastny - A Stastny
Clarke-Leach

That's my answer as well.